Quote from: CRKrueger;630618Basically he's saying whatever he can to poke his dick in Ben's ear.  He does that a lot.

Ah. Well, maybe I should back out of this discussion if it's just some kind of weird cockfight.

Quote from: Opaopajr;630622You are giving priority to having full HP before adventuring again.

A novice fighter can bounce back and adventure again at full, yes. But a veteran fighter has a greater range to explore before needing to return to town. And further, there is nothing stopping a veteran from returning to adventuring at the same low HP amount as a novice.

The advantage over novice full HP is, where the novice is full at like 10 HP or so, the veteran still keeps restoring HP with overland travel creating a buffer pool. Just like video games with overland walking regen, and the very obvious advantage of HP bloat, you can strategically get away with far less healing. Outside of a psychological feel-good of full HP, the veteran has complete advantage here.

The only issue is when the veteran takes on a greater challenge than a novice can so soon after. But then I ask if one is accounting for wilderness travel time and range of civilization (sphere of power). Why the hell is such a large threat so close in space and time? Greater perils so near and immediate to civilization usually provoke a full military action, with emergency magical healers working gratis, mustered armies, fleeing refugees, etc. Thus the assumptions of needing full HP for a veteran right out the gate of town - without everyone in town freaking out and working together furiously - is rather strange to me. Such a need would be an extreme situation, not status quo.

Now whoa whoa whoa right there spinach chin!

I didn't make any sort of reference to being able to undertake activity. Anyone with a positive hp to thier name can fully, actively adventure. The healing rates I was talking about don't have anything to do with the ability to be active.

I was pointing out that recovery time should coincide with general health and hardiness and that level shouldn't really be a factor. Sure a powerful lord should be able to march forth with 50% hit points and still cut through a swath of foes that would bring a fresh lesser warrior down.

I just happen to think that Joe the veteran with CON 10 is back at 100% faster than Bob the myrmidon with CON 18 is a bit silly.

Quote from: Opaopajr;630622You are giving priority to having full HP before adventuring again.

A novice fighter can bounce back and adventure again at full, yes. But a veteran fighter has a greater range to explore before needing to return to town. And further, there is nothing stopping a veteran from returning to adventuring at the same low HP amount as a novice.

The advantage over novice full HP is, where the novice is full at like 10 HP or so, the veteran still keeps restoring HP with overland travel creating a buffer pool. Just like video games with overland walking regen, and the very obvious advantage of HP bloat, you can strategically get away with far less healing. Outside of a psychological feel-good of full HP, the veteran has complete advantage here.

The only issue is when the veteran takes on a greater challenge than a novice can so soon after. But then I ask if one is accounting for wilderness travel time and range of civilization (sphere of power). Why the hell is such a large threat so close in space and time? Greater perils so near and immediate to civilization usually provoke a full military action, with emergency magical healers working gratis, mustered armies, fleeing refugees, etc. Thus the assumptions of needing full HP for a veteran right out the gate of town - without everyone in town freaking out and working together furiously - is rather strange to me. Such a need would be an extreme situation, not status quo.

Edit: I also make the gross assumption that people are at town and not choosing full bed rest while at base camp. But then that again goes back to strategic management of HP. Novices would be at the bleeding edge of risk trying to pull base camp full bed rest, as one good base camp raid could mean casualties. Veterans have enough HP in strategic reserve to attempt such a strategy. The risks and advantages should be rather obvious among us here.

There is nothing wrong with a level 10 fighter taking a while to heal to full.

The 'problem' is when a level 1 fighter with 8 hp only takes a week to recover from any injury, however severe.

Quote from: K Peterson;630630Ah. Well, maybe I should back out of this discussion if it's just some kind of weird cockfight.

It isn't, as far as I'm concerned. Jibba can wave is cock to my ear all he wants, I made some actual points, which he refused to acknowledge.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;630631Now whoa whoa whoa right there spinach chin!

I didn't make any sort of reference to being able to undertake activity. Anyone with a positive hp to thier name can fully, actively adventure. The healing rates I was talking about don't have anything to do with the ability to be active.

I was pointing out that recovery time should coincide with general health and hardiness and that level shouldn't really be a factor. Sure a powerful lord should be able to march forth with 50% hit points and still cut through a swath of foes that would bring a fresh lesser warrior down.

I just happen to think that Joe the veteran with CON 10 is back at 100% faster than Bob the myrmidon with CON 18 is a bit silly.

I haz spinach on chin? O_o   I will needz cat that like spinach.

In 2e that high Con effect is factored in by increased HP by Con HP adj. bonus per level, and Con HP adj. bonus per week of bed rest. So a Con 18 Fighter gets an extra 4 HP atop the 21 HP per week of bed rest (along with the extra 4 HP per 1st 10 levels). It is there, but for many people it may seem slow. However a lot of Con's effect seems front-loaded into HP totals instead of regeneration rate.

However, a week of chillaxing, waiting on repairing armor, and collecting town rumors at the dinner table is not all that uncommon in my games. Twenty-one HP a week though is quite a bit of HP while running downtime roleplay. If I changed it to Con HP bonus a day of full bed rest that'd change my play dynamics drastically. That is an extra 7 to 28 HP a week! A 28 to 49 HP recharge per week of downtime might be too fast for my campaign...

Thankfully the framework is there for others to figure out how to quickly tinker with Con factoring in HP amount and regeneration time. I don't see a pressing need to fix, but the chassis is laid bare for those who are interested.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;630583You and Jibba are having two different conversations. Let me restate his side, perhaps more clearly:

"Everybody talks about how unreasonable 4e fans are for demanding be in the basic game. Think about it from your perspective, if your version of were omitted. Wouldn't you be as upset and 'unreasonable'?"

That's his entire point (for the last 2 or 3 pages).

You're arguing about which is more iconic or a better design. He's trying to make people see things from a 4e fans perspective.

I'm not taking sides, but I thought the discussion could use some clarity.

Exactly this.

Quote from: CRKrueger;630618Basically he's saying whatever he can to poke his dick in Ben's ear.  He does that a lot.  

The latest goad is constantly using the term Gamist when referring to core D&D mechanics as he's done in the last few threads.

I think Singapore must be kinda boring.

Actually now I raised it with Sacro. Ben just stepped in to defend the cleric healing paradigm.

I am using gamist to refer to all mechanics. They are the game part of the game. So I think feats are gamist because its really hard to relate them to the actual PC experience expecially if you can swift them round as you level. I would say Decending AC vs Ascending AC was a gamist preference etc etc

Singapore's great I ahve found a gaming group too we are just discussing what they want to play sadly the current opinion is 4e though I am trying to swing them to 2e, Mage, SW Sci Fi, traveller or something else.

One of my issues with the way this site is going is that we move towards a monoculture. I joined to discuss Amber and to run an online Amber game to recruit players. Later I joined the main boards but it seems a few years back we were far more open. Yes there was 4e hate and storygame hate but apart from that it was a pretty broad church. However the OSR meme has gotten to the point where its like reading the Daily Mail or Huffington Post online. No decent is tolerated.
Discussion becomes personal attacks. I love discussing RPGs, mechaics, different approaches. I don't see much benefit in discussion where discenting voices just get yelled at or bullied off the site.
Further more i fully embrace logic. 100% my play style shouldn't affect discussion of a mechanical rule etc  etc

Quote from: Bill;630632There is nothing wrong with a level 10 fighter taking a while to heal to full.

The 'problem' is when a level 1 fighter with 8 hp only takes a week to recover from any injury, however severe.

Level 1 fighters recover faster but die easier, so they have less strategic and tactical leeway. As a conceptual issue, I don't find it all that unbelievable.

A novice can barely take a hit, but what they can take isn't as grievously long to recoup from. Whereas a high level veteran can take mind-blowing amounts of punishment, but likewise will take longer to recoup. Sort of like Bruce Willis in all the Die Hards, and Justin Long in Live Free or Die Hard. One can take a shot and be borderline, the other can take multiple shots, and a few explosions too. Having a differing recoup time from being borderline does not strike me as odd.

To fix that discrepency will have to investigate the very purpose of what HP is designed to emulate at its core.

However, you fire my curiosity, so I shall waste our time cranking out those numbers!

Two Fighters with (one utterly) exceptional HP:

Fighter lvl 1, Con 18, Max HP roll. HP 10+4=14

Fighter lvl 10, Con 18, Max HP roll on all. HP 100+40=140

Both reduced to 1 HP. One took on an arrow or two. The other... a dragon breath or ballista or two? Or a quiverfull of arrows or two?

Both chillax at town for a while. Give each a week of full bed rest.

By day 5 the lvl 1 is healed up and spends the weekend carousing around. Or he can rest all week to no extra benefit.

By day 5 the lvl 10 can say that's enough and spend the weekend carousing around. Or she can rest all week to be at 25 HP. Either way she is still injured to her own standard, but healthy enough to keep up with anything the novice can do. Or she can rest up to five weeks and five days to heal up to her higher standard.

Think about how flexible that is.

I only see it becoming an aesthetics problem when you conceive that epic grievous wounds should be comparable to average grievous wounds and recover equivalently, which strays painfully along the 'always fighting orcs' effect. That's not an aesthetic I feel particularly emulates what I want to represent in my games. I like the discrepency; to flatten it out feels like a disservice.

Practically, the difference between 1d6/level + Con with rest, and having a cleric cast 1 heal light wounds per character at eveyr break in action is one version you have a character taking 4 cure light spells slots, and in the other case you don't. The pace of play doesn't change. In our games, once the PCs were beat up and low on HP, they'd rest 8 hours, the cleric(s) would take a full allotment of heal spells and cast them in the morning, and if the PCs were still low on HP, they'd rest and cast more.

Automatically granting a generous recovery of HP with rest simply replicates the HP distribution rate of a cleric, without a player feeling compelled to run a cleric and spend most of its spell slots on healing. This isn't some newfangled approach to playing. The 15 minute adventuring day was real and widespread issue in D&D. And 4E isn't the only fantasy-combat RPG to tackle that problem. Another common way to deal with fragile HP is simply give PCs a lot more HP at early levels. There's little reason to stick with 1d6 HP at 1st level and 1 HP recovery per day except for reactionary 'that's the way we did it when I was a kid, and I'll be fucked if I change my game' approach to the game.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;630498Holy Shit you are colossally stupid.  I'm sorry.  I don't know how much plainer I could have put it and you still don't get it.

Our side:  Keep the basic game just that: basic and streamlined.  Give everyone else their options in optional rules

Yep like I said keeping the core book pure of all that power gaming munchkinism. If those dumb bastards want that bullshit put it into some other book. Who the fuck do these munchkins think they are? Do they not realize what D&D is? Fucking twats.

Your side is making a fundamental mistake, you think 1e is basic and streamlined.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;630498Their side: Put everything we like about 4e in the core rules and don't make it optional, fuck everyone else who doesn't like 4e.

Whoa there Trigger.  Let me get this straight, we are on a board that has a decided lean towards 1e and you all are getting prune-faced from a forum thread on a board that has a decided lean towards 4e?

It's almost like you all need to troll that board looking for juicy bits to be all self righteous about.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;630498Maybe it's me.  Maybe how I explained the difference doesn't make any sense at all.  Everyone else, was I incomprehensible?

An appeal to emotion?  Really?

This is why we can't have nice things.

Quote from: Benoist;630538Fuck around with this too much, and the game won't feel like "Dungeons & Dragons" to a lot of players out there.

...and if you fuck around with it just the right amount, it could be the best edition of D&D yet.

It is possible to imagine a cleric that isn't a heal-bot, even in basic.  As others have said, you didn't even get CLW until level 2.  And then you got one (IIRC).  ONE spell.  You had this whole list to select from, but knew you had to prep CLW.  Except we didn't.

Quote from: Sommerjon;630883Yep like I said keeping the core book pure of all that power gaming munchkinism. If those dumb bastards want that bullshit put it into some other book. Who the fuck do these munchkins think they are? Do they not realize what D&D is? Fucking twats.

Your side is making a fundamental mistake, you think 1e is basic and streamlined.


Whoa there Trigger.  Let me get this straight, we are on a board that has a decided lean towards 1e and you all are getting prune-faced from a forum thread on a board that has a decided lean towards 4e?

It's almost like you all need to troll that board looking for juicy bits to be all self righteous about.

Once again, you don't actually respond to anything I've actually said, do you?

QuoteAn appeal to emotion?  Really?

Comprehension is not emotion.  Holy fuck.  And you wonder why you often get dogpiled here.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;630905Once again, you don't actually respond to anything I've actually said, do you?



Comprehension is not emotion.  Holy fuck.  And you wonder why you often get dogpiled here.

To be fair, when he said "Your side is making a fundamental mistake, you think 1e is basic and streamlined," that was definitely responsive to what you said.  In fact, it goes to the heart of much or what you said.  Probably best to respond to it.

Quote from: Mistwell;630911To be fair, when he said "Your side is making a fundamental mistake, you think 1e is basic and streamlined," that was definitely responsive to what you said.  In fact, it goes to the heart of much or what you said.  Probably best to respond to it.

I actually typed out a response, then said "fuck it", because he wouldn't pay attention anyway.

But you know why you're not correct?  Because we were talking about BASIC (B/X or BECMI) being streamlined, not 1e.  As in, "We're OK with the BASIC version of the game being BASIC because that's what BASIC means, even if I personally prefer a little extra options.

WTF is up with the complete failure of reading comprehension around here?