Quote from: jhkim on December 31, 2024, 08:49:37 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on December 31, 2024, 05:29:37 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 31, 2024, 04:51:03 PMMillennials are so fucking weak.

No Shit.  I saw someone on the big purple complaining about the tomb of horrors saying that it is unfair and it is only playable if the DM gives the players a break and make it less leathal.  I saw someone talking about playing Tomb or Horror using 5e  and they said while characters died, they were able to be reserected and that there were no "permanent deaths".

Players these days are soft.

So, they're wrong to say that it's not playable - but they're also not wrong to prefer a lower-lethality D&D.

I play high-lethality Call of Cthulhu, but that doesn't mean that I'm tougher than someone who plays a different RPG. It's just a different preference of how to have fun. Just like watching action movies doesn't mean that someone is really a tough guy.

There's probably an interesting conversation to be had about the pros and cons of higher lethality, though this might not be the venue. The short version is that upping the lethality can invest your players more in the game and make it more exciting, but too-high lethality can disinvest them and make the game boring.

Personally, I have no issues with characters dying. I actually look forward to it, since I'm one of those annoying players that likes to frequently change characters. That said, Tomb of Horrors represents a style of gaming I have zero interest in.

Quote from: jhkim on December 31, 2024, 08:49:37 PM

Quote from: Wisithir on December 31, 2024, 01:34:38 PM

Quote from: https://theangrygm.com/office-hours-personal-boundaries/There is strong, documented evidence that giving people an implied promise of safety from discomfort combined with the idea that exposure to discomfort constitutes actual, tangible harm, does deep psychological damage to people. It turns them brittle. It renders them delicate and unable to cope with stressors.

The bolded part is the key problem.

There's nothing wrong with making a game comfortable (i.e. free from discomfort). It's a fucking game, not therapy or military training. I have no problem with people playing horror games of confronting deep fears, but I also have no problem with playing a game that's just easy happy fun.

The converse is this:

Quote from: GhostNinja on December 31, 2024, 05:29:37 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 31, 2024, 04:51:03 PMMillennials are so fucking weak.

No Shit.  I saw someone on the big purple complaining about the tomb of horrors saying that it is unfair and it is only playable if the DM gives the players a break and make it less leathal.  I saw someone talking about playing Tomb or Horror using 5e  and they said while characters died, they were able to be reserected and that there were no "permanent deaths".

Players these days are soft.

So, they're wrong to say that it's not playable - but they're also not wrong to prefer a lower-lethality D&D.

I play high-lethality Call of Cthulhu, but that doesn't mean that I'm tougher than someone who plays a different RPG. It's just a different preference of how to have fun. Just like watching action movies doesn't mean that someone is really a tough guy.

Playing Tomb of Horrors and complaining that it's too lethal means either the complainer is ignorant of the history of the module. (A possibility, the thing is decades old and not everyone knows the Deep Lore of D&D) or they're missing the fucking point of the module that Gary wrote to explicitly and deliberatley be lethal as a challenge to his more experienced players.

It's like playing Star Wars and complaining there's too much space opera.

Quote from: a_wanderer on December 31, 2024, 11:25:28 AMI really don't get it.
How is a hand gesture or a code word better than simply talking to the other people at the table?

We actually had something like that, it turns out one of my players id REALLY freaked out by spiders.
I had a significant encounter with giants spiders, as I described the webbing he said "wait, I hope there aren't spiders, I don't deal with them" so I told them to go elsewhere until I figure out something else. Took all of 10 seconds to resolve.

This is the mature way to handle things.  If we have real issues, we handle them like adults.  These "trigger" warnings and signaling are for people who can't.  A gaming group is a social group, and you get to know each other and develop bonds, and understand each other on a human level, and thus, you learn to know each other's issues among the other things, and you play with respect for one another as individuals.  These other methods are about being "offended" at anything that people looking to be offended as a soapbox opportunity find objectionable.

Quote from: jhkim on December 31, 2024, 08:49:37 PM

Quote from: Wisithir on December 31, 2024, 01:34:38 PM

Quote from: https://theangrygm.com/office-hours-personal-boundaries/There is strong, documented evidence that giving people an implied promise of safety from discomfort combined with the idea that exposure to discomfort constitutes actual, tangible harm, does deep psychological damage to people. It turns them brittle. It renders them delicate and unable to cope with stressors.

The bolded part is the key problem.

There's nothing wrong with making a game comfortable (i.e. free from discomfort). It's a fucking game, not therapy or military training. I have no problem with people playing horror games of confronting deep fears, but I also have no problem with playing a game that's just easy happy fun.

The converse is this:

Quote from: GhostNinja on December 31, 2024, 05:29:37 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 31, 2024, 04:51:03 PMMillennials are so fucking weak.

No Shit.  I saw someone on the big purple complaining about the tomb of horrors saying that it is unfair and it is only playable if the DM gives the players a break and make it less leathal.  I saw someone talking about playing Tomb or Horror using 5e  and they said while characters died, they were able to be reserected and that there were no "permanent deaths".

Players these days are soft.

So, they're wrong to say that it's not playable - but they're also not wrong to prefer a lower-lethality D&D.

I play high-lethality Call of Cthulhu, but that doesn't mean that I'm tougher than someone who plays a different RPG. It's just a different preference of how to have fun. Just like watching action movies doesn't mean that someone is really a tough guy.

False dichotomy:

Snowflakes being so fragile as to not be able to play elfgames doesn't mean those who can are "tough guys" but they ARE tougher than the snowflakes.

In this case we ARE talking about a spectrum, the toughness spectrum, on the extreme low end of the bell curve you have the snowflakes, on the extreme high end we have the REAL tough guys. In between we have most people at the center.

So, if you can't bear to watch an action movie because it makes you uncomfortable or "triggers" you then you're NOT tough, and I, by being able to do what you can't I'm tougher than you, which doesn't mean I'm a "Tough Guy".

These are games.  None of these things is actually happening.  Nothing here requires that someone be tough.  All it requires is the basic ability to separate fantasy from reality.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 01, 2025, 02:36:34 AMAll it requires is the basic ability to separate fantasy from reality.

Sadly, this is not a universal skill.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 01, 2025, 02:36:34 AMThese are games.  None of these things is actually happening.  Nothing here requires that someone be tough.  All it requires is the basic ability to separate fantasy from reality.

I believe that this is crux of the issue. I work on a college campus and am the 'D&D Guy' (I have even been embarrassed by being called this at a couple of panel events, there is no escape for me)  and to this end a lot of faculty and students approach me about gaming and every so often they are included in a game after I try to decide what I am getting into. I also have non-campus people in the group because everyone can contribute and I am hardly a snob and I like that everyone contributes and different backgrounds bring different outlooks to the game and we can do other things together, like going to the D&D movie as a group. I have sat in on other campus gaming groups and usually bail after a few minutes when I hear the concerns come out because life, it just isn't a fair thing and gaming is escapism for all at the table, not drama club, and some individuals just cannot separate fantasy from reality to save their lives or the psyches of those around them. Therefore they try to control the table to their own satisfaction and are best avoided.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 31, 2024, 06:53:57 PMHeh.

The Tomb of Temporary Setbacks

Basically that's what they want. 

Quote from: jhkim on December 31, 2024, 08:49:37 PMSo, they're wrong to say that it's not playable - but they're also not wrong to prefer a lower-lethality D&D.

I play high-lethality Call of Cthulhu, but that doesn't mean that I'm tougher than someone who plays a different RPG. It's just a different preference of how to have fun. Just like watching action movies doesn't mean that someone is really a tough guy.

Yes. Games without the possibility of getting hurt are dead are pointless.   If you want to write a story with a bunch of friends, put away your books and dice, grab a laptop and write.

The danger is what makes it more exciting.  5e (Tabletop MMORPG) makes it so characters are almost impossible to die and can easily be reencarnated. Characters are superheros at 1st level.   That's boring.

Being a level 1 character who has to decide "yes we should go this way or no we shouldn't" or whether to fight creatures or not makes it interesting.   Characters become better from these experiences.   That's the way Gygax did it.

I believe Gygax up to his death I believe played Castles and Crusades (much like the older D&D and AD&D) and not the WOTC versions of D&D that were put out.  If he were alive I doubt he would see D&D in 5e.  WOTC has turned it into an entirely different game.

That's why I love the OSR and playing games like Old School Essentials because I feel like I am playing D&D like I did when I first started.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 31, 2024, 10:47:13 PMThere's probably an interesting conversation to be had about the pros and cons of higher lethality, though this might not be the venue. The short version is that upping the lethality can invest your players more in the game and make it more exciting, but too-high lethality can disinvest them and make the game boring.

Personally, I have no issues with characters dying. I actually look forward to it, since I'm one of those annoying players that likes to frequently change characters. That said, Tomb of Horrors represents a style of gaming I have zero interest in.

I get this myself.   I agree with you on more lethality investing your players in the game and yes, the Tomb of Horrors is a whole different things and doesn't represent a lot of the adventures out there.

The reason I think players are becoming more soft is because games (many of which are new gamers) who have a fit if their character dies and as a DM you have to do what you can to apease them.

For me, I will just kick the player out and find someone else.  I don't want to put up with that.  Games are suposed to be fun for both the players and the GM/DM.   I am not changing my game for one troublemaker.

If a DM ever brought out X cards at a table I was at, I'd say they were triggering to me and ask for them not to be used. It would be hypocritical to continue using them after that.

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 01, 2025, 11:32:58 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 31, 2024, 08:49:37 PMSo, they're wrong to say that it's not playable - but they're also not wrong to prefer a lower-lethality D&D.

I play high-lethality Call of Cthulhu, but that doesn't mean that I'm tougher than someone who plays a different RPG. It's just a different preference of how to have fun. Just like watching action movies doesn't mean that someone is really a tough guy.

Yes. Games without the possibility of getting hurt are dead are pointless.  If you want to write a story with a bunch of friends, put away your books and dice, grab a laptop and write.

I agree, but the stakes aren't always binary life or death.
I think what we're railing against is the idea of a "safe" adventure where the consequences for failure are minimal and players can bumble through without worrying that their character might get dead. That's not fun and not in the spirit of D&D. The whole idea is that players make choices, and those choices have appropriate consequences. That's the "engine" of role playing games.

Quote from: Krazz on January 01, 2025, 02:16:28 PMIf a DM ever brought out X cards at a table I was at, I'd say they were triggering to me and ask for them not to be used. It would be hypocritical to continue using them after that.

Great idea.  Turn their bullshit back on them.   People have been trying to push safety tools on the hobby and it  has failed because they DO NOT WORK.   Now they are trying to use D&D 5e as a conduit to get them into the hobby.   Hopefully people will continue to ignore them and not intergrate them into their games.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 01, 2025, 02:21:49 PMI agree, but the stakes aren't always binary life or death.

I think what we're railing against is the idea of a "safe" adventure where the consequences for failure are minimal and players can bumble through without worrying that their character might get dead. That's not fun and not in the spirit of D&D. The whole idea is that players make choices, and those choices have appropriate consequences. That's the "engine" of role playing games.

Yeah, it's not just life or death.   I agree with what you say that if a player can go through an adventure and there are no consequences either way, that's just no fun.   You might as well be writing a story, not playing a game and that is not D&D as any of us who have been playing it would recognize.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 01, 2025, 02:36:34 AMThese are games.  None of these things is actually happening.  Nothing here requires that someone be tough.  All it requires is the basic ability to separate fantasy from reality.

Separating fantasy from reality doesn't mean that someone will necessarily enjoy a particular fantasy. Someone can perfectly well understand that watching people be tortured in a gory horror film is fantasy, but that doesn't mean that they're necessarily going to enjoy watching it.

This contrary to GeekyBugle's claim of a spectrum...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 31, 2024, 11:32:56 PMIn this case we ARE talking about a spectrum, the toughness spectrum, on the extreme low end of the bell curve you have the snowflakes, on the extreme high end we have the REAL tough guys. In between we have most people at the center.

So, if you can't bear to watch an action movie because it makes you uncomfortable or "triggers" you then you're NOT tough, and I, by being able to do what you can't I'm tougher than you, which doesn't mean I'm a "Tough Guy".

Someone's taste in fiction is not any sign of real-life toughness.

In real life, no one (outside of psychopaths) enjoys seeing torture, or enjoys seeing people they know get killed. That some people can enjoy it in horror movies and action movies isn't a sign of their toughness in real life. It's just that they have a different taste in fiction.

For example, my stepdaughter is a big fan of gory movies. She loves The Terrifier films, say. My son hates horror movies. He finds the gory stuff gross and pointless. Both of those are just taste in fiction - it's completely unrelated to real life toughness.

There are plenty of real-life combat veterans who don't enjoy gory movies. That isn't a sign that they're weak. It's that they know that real life gore isn't enjoyable.