Quote from: Sigmund;544486Hate to say it, but I have never had to ask the DM for a ruling about something that's clearly spelled out in the rules.

It's my understanding from this thread that it's not clearly spelled out in the rules and the application of advantage and disadvantage is purely at GM's whim by design (rulings, no rules).

If that's not the case, and the various cases for advantage and disadvantage are clearly detailed- then I have no explanation for the 'mother may I comment'.

Quote from: gleichman;544491It's my understanding from this thread that it's not clearly spelled out in the rules and the application of advantage and disadvantage is purely at GM's whim by design (rulings, no rules).

If that's not the case, and the various cases for advantage and disadvantage are clearly detailed- then I have no explanation for the 'mother may I comment'.

Specific cases for advantage/disadvantage are probably in the "not in the rules yet" category rather than the "not going to be in the rules" category, like the fighter class features.

In any case, whether you see adjudication of edge cases as a necessary evil or as a unique strength of RPGs really comes down to personal taste. There is something to be said for simple and easily extensible core mechanics though, IMO.

Quote from: beejazz;544492Specific cases for advantage/disadvantage are probably in the "not in the rules yet" category rather than the "not going to be in the rules" category, like the fighter class features.

In any case, whether you see adjudication of edge cases as a necessary evil or as a unique strength of RPGs really comes down to personal taste. There is something to be said for simple and easily extensible core mechanics though, IMO.

Yes, i think we are just quibbling over the level of detail required in the book for the Gm to make solid decisions. The more edge cases and specific situations you spell out, the more that can potnentially bog down play (and you cannot cover every conceivable situation). As I get older I tend to prefer broad guidelines that can be applied logically and consistently using this method I never have the feeling you describe of "mother may I".

Quote from: beejazz;544492Specific cases for advantage/disadvantage are probably in the "not in the rules yet" category rather than the "not going to be in the rules" category, like the fighter class features.

In any case, whether you see adjudication of edge cases as a necessary evil or as a unique strength of RPGs really comes down to personal taste. There is something to be said for simple and easily extensible core mechanics though, IMO.

I don't think we can comment much about 'not in the rules yet" and that is little more than guess work. We can however comment about what's not currently there. And I can easily see the lack of clear rules about advantage/disadvantage being a killer for any reason player seeking simulation and immersion.


Nor do I consider this an edge case. This is core to how the player uses and interacts with the rules. It needs to be nailed down so that players who find the style distasteful can move on to other games.


ADDED: As an aside, anyone who is currently playing without maps and minis will likely be good with advantage/disadvantage. They are aready playing a game of 'mother may I' and have discarded simulation and tunneled-visioned immersion.

What constitutes advantage/disadvantage in combat seems pretty much defined by the rules.

Its applying it to out of combat skill use which is pretty much free-form.

Quote from: gleichman;544495I don't think we can comment much about 'not in the rules yet" and that is little more than guess work. We can however comment about what's not currently there. And I can easily see the lack of clear rules about advantage/disadvantage being a killer for any reason player seeking simulation and immersion.


Nor do I consider this an edge case. This is core to how the player uses and interacts with the rules. It needs to be nailed down so that players who find the style distasteful can move on to other games.

I'm not interested in arguing what constitutes an edge case, since that tends to be defined by context. I'm just saying that there will tend to be edge cases both because RPGs tend to be extended to emulate situations outside the core experience they were designed for and because some of the situations rules are made to handle become too vague or variable to predict. Combat is usually easy enough to nail down, but social interaction rules have had this issue (for some) for a very long time.

QuoteADDED: As an aside, anyone who is currently playing without maps and minis will likely be good with advantage/disadvantage. They are aready playing a game of 'mother may I' and have discarded simulation and tunneled-visioned immersion.

This I take issue with, as my zone-based movement rules are quite concrete and specific. No permission needed to move a particular place, and the rules for AoO's and how they interact with movement are pretty cut and dry.

Quote from: gleichman;544495I don't think we can comment much about 'not in the rules yet" and that is little more than guess work. We can however comment about what's not currently there. And I can easily see the lack of clear rules about advantage/disadvantage being a killer for any reason player seeking simulation and immersion.


Nor do I consider this an edge case. This is core to how the player uses and interacts with the rules. It needs to be nailed down so that players who find the style distasteful can move on to other games.


ADDED: As an aside, anyone who is currently playing without maps and minis will likely be good with advantage/disadvantage. They are aready playing a game of 'mother may I' and have discarded simulation and tunneled-visioned immersion.

I play without maps or minies most of the time and experience no problems with immersion or realism. YMMV. On the othe hand, i can still enjoy a game with miniatures and deep rules. If by mother may I you mean we expect the GM to present the world as our character's see it and make logical, consistent judgments about what occurs within that framework based on what we do, then yes I suppose I am playing mother may I. The GM applies the broad guidelines of the rules of course which isn't as hard or impossible to do consistently as you suggest ImO. But again YMMV.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;544494Yes, i think we are just quibbling over the level of detail required in the book for the Gm to make solid decisions. The more edge cases and specific situations you spell out, the more that can potnentially bog down play (and you cannot cover every conceivable situation). As I get older I tend to prefer broad guidelines that can be applied logically and consistently using this method I never have the feeling you describe of "mother may I".

I think how much you need to define things depends on how important they are to the context you're building the game for. You're building for the dungeon? Better include torchlight durations or what-have-you. Building for combat? Better have some concrete rules for flanking, defense, etc. Specifics matter here too. Less need to build defense rules around suppressive fire if you're building the rules around fencing.

I like clear rules for the core activity and easy to extend core rules for everything else.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;544502The GM applies the broad guidelines of the rules of course which isn't as hard or impossible to do consistently as you suggest ImO. But again YMMV.

While I think it may be possible, it is without doubt extremely rare. I have yet to see anyone manage it correctly and consistently and most who say the can don't even make the smallest effort to prove it.

People love to think they are capable of things they aren't. A few quick tests reveals the lie easily.

Quote from: beejazz;544500This I take issue with, as my zone-based movement rules are quite concrete and specific. No permission needed to move a particular place, and the rules for AoO's and how they interact with movement are pretty cut and dry.

As a simulation they likely suck too. But that's going on odds, feel free to email them to me and I'll give you a complete opinion of them.

Quote from: gleichman;544512While I think it may be possible, it is without doubt extremely rare. I have yet to see anyone manage it correctly and consistently and most who say the can don't even make the smallest effort to prove it.

People love to think they are capable of things they aren't. A few quick tests reveals the lie easily.

This isn't my experience.

Quote from: jadrax;544496What constitutes advantage/disadvantage in combat seems pretty much defined by the rules.

Its applying it to out of combat skill use which is pretty much free-form.

Not the impression I got from this thread. It indicated to me that it was quite vague and people don't even know how to resolve multiple advantages and disadvantages in combat.

However if true (i.e. it is well detailed and clear for combat), I wouldn't say the system is 'mother may i'. It has other faults, but they are basically unimportant for a game like D&D.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;544520This isn't my experience.

Of course it isn't. You're not that self-aware.

Are you willing to be put to the test? The last time I offered I noticed you avoided it.

Quote from: gleichman;544523Of course it isn't. You're not that self-aware.

i was speaking about my experience as a player not as a GM (i leave my judgment abilities for players to judge not myself.

QuoteAre you willing to be put to the test? The last time I offered I noticed you avoided it.

it depends on the test. I must admit I doubt your ability to test fairly or accurately on this subject.

Quote from: gleichman;544517As a simulation they likely suck too. But that's going on odds, feel free to email them to me and I'll give you a complete opinion of them.

Movement ranges work out to about what they would be in 3x. There's little specific granularity in weapon ranges, but the rules in this case are more for resolving combats than for simulating them. The decisions available to players approximate the decisions available to characters and the results approximate the likely outcome of the engagement, and that's really all most people are looking for in a game.