Quote from: Marleycat;543675There are more than a few ways to "fix" it. No combat cantrips or slowing the progression further, capping at lower dice, doing both, halving the range.

If you make it a roll to hit it actually either needs to stay exactly the same or more powerful and playtest feedback told them it wasn't liked.

Roll to hit with an Int Bonus. If the target is giant sized (or bigger than a car) give them advantage, if its tiny (or smaller than a bread bin) give them disadvantage.
It can target anything.
It has the strength equal to an average punch so it can smash a window but won't have any effect on a door.
This means its more flexible, not as reliable, more interesting (autohits are always dull and now in theory it can score a Crit), and still makes the Wizard feel like a caster in combat.

Mage Hand is more problematic I think it actualy needs to be a first level spell to be honest as it has too many applications and nerfing them, like saying the hand dispels if it touches another creature or limiting it's dexterity to very basic tasks makes the effect much less fun. So make it a first level spell with a lengthy duration say 1 hour per level or something.

Quote from: James Gillen;543648I'm surprised no one has asked:
What happens if I cast Magic Missile into the darkness?

JG

It summons a Dread Gazebo into being.

I was a bad girl tonight.  I not only defended why wizards are way better than fighters on TBP but I also explained 5e is ripping off Fantasy Craft in a good way.

Quote from: jibbajibba;543715Mage Hand is more problematic I think it actualy needs to be a first level spell to be honest as it has too many applications and nerfing them, like saying the hand dispels if it touches another creature or limiting it's dexterity to very basic tasks makes the effect much less fun. So make it a first level spell with a lengthy duration say 1 hour per level or something.

Easy fix for mage hand is to make it slow. You're worried about the mage suddenly being able to disarm or disrupt spells from a distance, there's your solution. It's slow enough that enemy combatants bothered by it can just walk away from it.

Also limit the hand to doing what the mage can do and the usual ten pound limit. Even if it could trip or disarm, it could only do so with the same reliability as a wizard (who typically isn't good at that kind of thing).

Quote from: beejazz;543749Easy fix for mage hand is to make it slow. You're worried about the mage suddenly being able to disarm or disrupt spells from a distance, there's your solution. It's slow enough that enemy combatants bothered by it can just walk away from it.

Also limit the hand to doing what the mage can do and the usual ten pound limit. Even if it could trip or disarm, it could only do so with the same reliability as a wizard (who typically isn't good at that kind of thing).

Possibly,

I would use it to empty pockets, pour out potion bottles and drop rings or other nick nacks and wizards are generally pretty good at slight of hand and have high dex. You don't need to be able to trip or disarm to take all the arrows out of a quiver and drop them on the floor.

The slow idea might help though the hand is going to be pretty small so ..

Now I quite like all those creative uses of the effect I just think they merit it being a 1st level spell as opposed to an at will cantrip that you use for fetching tea and a quick massage.

The hand can exert 10 lb of force, that is not to say it carries the inertia of a 10lb object; and it can do so at the blistering pace of almost 7 mph.

I don't think we'll have too big of problem here.

Quote from: Marleycat;543727I was a bad girl tonight.  I not only defended why wizards are way better than fighters on TBP but I also explained 5e is ripping off Fantasy Craft in a good way.

I'm sure that got you a tearful wailing chorus of, "You must hate jocks!!"

Quote from: Kord's Boon;543777The hand can exert 10 lb of force, that is not to say it carries the inertia of a 10lb object; and it can do so at the blistering pace of almost 7 mph.

I don't think we'll have too big of problem here.

I'd say it could disrupt spellcasters with 10lbs of force applied to their junk.

Quote from: jeff37923;543797I'd say it could disrupt spellcasters with 10lbs of force applied to their junk.

Especially since I think it only takes 11lbs of force to remove a scrotum. (Course it's BS, but that's what you always hear from chicks coming out of self-defense classes.)

Quote from: jeff37923;543797I'd say it could disrupt spellcasters with 10lbs of force applied to their junk.

Indeed.

There are a host of evil tricks I would abuse the crap out of if I was a player with access to this. Now I don't mind those use cases but think they get sufficiently powerful to call it a spell. just tearing the pages out of a casters spell book and chucking them into a brazier is goign to pis sthem off not to mention wrapping a scarf round their eyes, undoing a belt or backpack buckle, stealing that dagger from their belt and using it to cut a hole in their backpack, emptying the contents of their ritual pouches over the floor, putting poison into goblet when the subject is distracted ....huge abusability

Quote from: jeff37923;543797I'd say it could disrupt spellcasters with 10lbs of force applied to their junk.

Indeed, although the descritopn says it can't attack, but grabbing their junk and giving it a good old wiggle might be just as bad.

There are a host of evil tricks I would abuse the crap out of if I was a player with access to this. Now I don't mind those use cases but think they get sufficiently powerful to call it a spell. just tearing the pages out of a casters spell book and chucking them into a brazier is goign to pis sthem off not to mention wrapping a scarf round their eyes, undoing a belt or backpack buckle, stealing that dagger from their belt and using it to cut a hole in their backpack, emptying the contents of their ritual pouches over the floor, putting poison into goblet when the subject is distracted ....huge abusability

Quote from: jibbajibba;543804Indeed, although the descritopn says it can't attack, but grabbing their junk and giving it a good old wiggle might be just as bad.

Maybe this could work, but any caster who literally walks forwards while you are applying the maximum load disrupts the spell by going over load. In that eventuality you have to spend an action to cast it again, another to move it into place (and provided the caster does not move away) and once more to go for the loins. That is if you first completely neglect any clothing or armor the wizards has, or if he shielded himself... or if they happen to be a woman.

QuoteJust tearing the pages out of a casters spell book and chucking them into a brazier is going to pis them off

Sure, provided the book is open and not bound by a belt, and the caster does not simply hold it close when he sees the hand.

Quotenot to mention wrapping a scarf round their eyes,

"Hold still while I clumsily flail this scarf around please"

Quoteundoing a belt or backpack buckle

With one hand? 50 ft away? Without tactile feedback?

Quotestealing that dagger from their belt and using it to cut a hole in their
backpack,

Doable (maybe), at the cost of two actions.

Quoteemptying the contents of their ritual pouches over the floor

Sure,

Quoteputting poison into goblet when the subject is distracted

Also sure, remember: spectral hand. Not invisible, not etheral.

Quote from: Kord's Boon;543816Maybe this could work, but any caster who literally walks forwards while you are applying the maximum load disrupts the spell by going over load.

Worthwhile counters to everything.

But I have a more important question.. why would anyone think a wizard able to do such wonderful things with a wimpy hand limited to 10 lbs of force, when a man using his full effort and 6 lbs of sharp steel is limited doing 1d8 damage?

The vary abstraction of the system answers these possible uses of mage hand easily enough. Like weapons, it can't directly physically effect anything with a positive HP total- at least not in combat (for the simple reason that it doesn't do d[anything]. If they can inflict such effects, the entire combat system would have to be redone to make those effects non-abstracted as well. Otherwise consistency of the campaign is blown.

Really, the question is easy.

And as a aside, such 'debates' over spell effects was what we called rule lawyering back in the 70s. Nothing slowed the game worse than 'yes it can/no it can't debates'. We kicked the offenders out and played the game.

Quote from: gleichman;543819The vary abstraction of the system answers these possible uses of mage hand easily enough. Like weapons, it can't directly physically effect anything with a positive HP total- at least not in combat (for the simple reason that it doesn't do d[anything]. If they can inflict such effects, the entire combat system would have to be redone to make those effects non-abstracted as well. Otherwise consistency of the campaign is blown.

I agree provisionally, garbing your opponent's groin would be similar to a called shot no? If that's not allowed why would this be? I was trying to demonstrate even granting the assumption that you could this tactic is still only marginally feasible.

Quote from: jeff37923;543796I'm sure that got you a tearful wailing chorus of, "You must hate jocks!!"

But they love me over there, seriously.

On the 10 lbs rule to the junk? If I ever meet CK FtF I'll be happy to prove the theory true, remember I am the only girl in my birth family with more than a couple of brothers ...lets not go into my foster families.

@Jj, first magic missle and now mage hand? You and Ben are two Grumpy Old Men in my opinion.
 
It's an insubstantial hand for Jesus sake! It's not a great combat spell unless you're hidden and somehow achieve "advantage" for the effect.  Such as floating it behind your target and bonking them on the head with a rock .....