Quote from: Benoist;543477Magic missile is a force effect, like the Wall of Force, Cube of Force and so on. If you were to cast a Wall of Force and crush pieces of furnitures with it well... it would damage items. The idea that a magic missile would not damage inanimate objects is strange to me.

It is not strange, it is plain wrong. Force effect is force effect is force effect.

Quote from: jibbajibba;543487So it can now now used as a creature detector- target places where things might be camoflaged or invisible
Can it target undead
Can it be cast at an animated statue (or chair or handstand) if its not inteligent just animated
will it bypass illusions? Mirror Image
etc
etc
etc

If we want to bring some 3.X logic into the mix than a 'creature' is defined exclusively on the presence of a charisma and wisdom score; regardless of how powerless, immobile, mindless, or dead it happens to be.

Quote from: Spinachcat;542967Why is there so much vitriol in this thread?


Benoist, you seem far too pissed off.


I am choosing to believe Mike Mearls. He says they are early in the design and playtest results will be taken seriously. If so, the game could change remarkably between now and whenever it hits the shelves.

Or not.

Either way, we live in a glorious age of RPG variety. Whatever 5e may or may not be, there are shelves full of fantasy RPGs that can please whatever niche viewpoint any of us may have.

QFT, and a serious +1.

Come to think of it, if MM is an at-will don't we have the issue of wizards unleashing a constant stream of explosions on every dungeon hallways all the time? If one is checking for traps it would be invaluable.

On the flip side is that not basically equivalent to prodding every surface with a 10ft poll or arrow?

So your solution is to basically have magic missile cease to be a Force effect at all.

Quote from: Kord's Boon;543494Come to think of it, if MM is an at-will don't we have the issue of wizards unleashing a constant stream of explosions on every dungeon hallways all the time? If one is checking for traps it would be invaluable.

On the flip side is that not basically equivalent to prodding every surface with a 10ft poll or arrow?

Pretty much. It's a much smaller deal than is being made out given a Rogue can just do it better and with no noise or collateral damage which is a big factor in a dungeon. At least any dungeon I run and have played in.

Does a magic missile make noise? The spell in the How to Play document doesn't specify whether there is a vocal component to the spellcasting, though it DOES precise that the magic missile IS in fact a projectile of magical force, which would then intimate this IS a Force effect. Hence you could possibly use it as a 100 foot pole and on. BUT the target is clearly a creature.

I don't like the idea of magic missile not being a force effect to be honest.

What if the solution is the targeting of the Force effect? That is, the magic missile IS a Force effect, but it needs a designated living creature as a target because lifeforce or whatnot is acting as a pole of attraction to it, like a magnet? You select the target, launch the missile, and the force effect goes to the designated target as though it was "called" by it, if you will.

Then, maybe it doesn't work on undead (which makes the cleric more relevant), constructs and the like. I think I could live with that better than the alternative, where MM isn't a force effect at all.

Quote from: jibbajibba;543184Exactly.

Either you can summon a bolt of energy that always hits it's intended target or you can't.

Is it a Game Engine or a Physics Engine.

It's magic. It's not now nor will it ever be "real" It works any way you want it to. It can't possibly model "physics". There's an entire dimension of imagination to explain why it can target "creatures" and not inanimate objects. it can be made disassociated by refusing to explain it at all, or as associated as magic in a fantasy game is ever going to get. Now explaining how often a skilled warrior can trip opponents per day (for example)... you know, something that actually has a precedent in real life around which a game model can be constructed... that's what ends up actually being truly dissociated or not (to me anyway).

I've never understood why magic working any which way at all would be so confusing. Any mechanical descriptions of magic in an RPG are going to be for game purposes. Now I'll grant you that consistency in the mechanical approach to magic can possibly add the illusion of association to magic rules (although even that's not inherent). However, I've seen more than one magic system that is more or less "make it up as you go" that still "feels" associated in the context of the overall game (such as Ars Magica, Iron Gauntlets, or even Elements of Magic). Why all this confusion over how Magic Missile works? It unerringly hits "living" targets, or targets with "auras" or "spirits" or the capacity to move independently of another's influence or control". Or, it hits anything you want. Play it however you want to. Maybe it is useless against rocks, but works against fire because the fire is "animated"... works for me. of course the game limits it since it's a low power spell, available to even the greenest of casters. What draws it into the game world for the players is how it's explained, or not explained, and that's pure fluff. Hell, maybe nobody knows why it works the way it does. Magic is mysterious.

Quote from: jadrax;543188DM: It's a Treasure Chest
Player: I Magic Missile it
DM: Nothing happens
DM: It's another Treasure Chest
Player: I Magic Missile it
DM: bolts of arcane light fly from your fingers
Player: I found the Mimic, go me

DM: You come across an enemy fort defended by many sentinels
Player: I Magic Missile one
DM: Nothing happens
Player: Ah, the old alamo trick, eh

Then of course you start worrying about how interacts with illusions and all that shit. If you start Rules Lawyering, so will your players.

Dude, i think this is awesome. I would totally let that work as a DM. It's creative thinking by the player and I live for that shit as a DM.

Quote from: Benoist;543500Does a magic missile make noise? The spell in the How to Play document doesn't specify whether there is a vocal component to the spellcasting, though it DOES precise that the magic missile IS in fact a projectile of magical force, which would then intimate this IS a Force effect. Hence you could possibly use it as a 100 foot pole and on. BUT the target is clearly a creature.

I don't like the idea of magic missile not being a force effect to be honest.

I would definetely say that if you are targeting objects it will make a concussive sound. I could also easily see it make a sonic effect on the way to a target.

If I may hazard a misuse of Justin's terminology, we may just be pushing around a spherical cow.

On reflection a force effect that is not likely to over-come all but the most fragile object's hardness is very helpful and even if it's usable at-will (or not, it's your cup of tea) it's not something that players will literally use very 5 feet. After all, how many times have players forgotten rules that could make their lives much easier. I've seen PCs -die- because they didn't 'take 10'.

I say let it target object, as that would make the most sense. I'll rule it that way during the play-test I'm running next week.

Quote from: Benoist;543479Come on, man. Stop rewinding days of conversation like this. Read the whole thread first, then comment, please, because what you're talking about has been settled. Temporarily maybe, but settled nonetheless. We moved on.

I don't have any choice, I don't currently have the free time to follow this shit in real time. fact remains, you're picking on one person over an issue and not another. I don't wanna be left out of the ire. Hit me. I want at-will magic too. I don't want special treatment just because we get along and agree most of the time. I'm not holding back, I think you're being unreasonable and reactionary over a minor issue and it's ill-becomes you.

Quote from: Benoist;543500Does a magic missile make noise? The spell in the How to Play document doesn't specify whether there is a vocal component to the spellcasting, though it DOES precise that the magic missile IS in fact a projectile of magical force, which would then intimate this IS a Force effect. Hence you could possibly use it as a 100 foot pole and on. BUT the target is clearly a creature.

I don't like the idea of magic missile not being a force effect to be honest.

Magic missile isn't exactly for fine manipulation. Even barring somatic components or loud magic, punching loose objects 100 ft away and springing traps (as opposed to disarming them) has got to make some kind of noise.

Quote from: Benoist;543502What if the solution is the targeting of the Force effect? That is, the magic missile IS a Force effect, but it needs a designated living creature as a target because lifeforce or whatnot is acting as a pole of attraction to it, like a magnet? You select the target, launch the missile, and the force effect goes to the designated target as though it was "called" by it, if you will.

Then, maybe it doesn't work on undead (which makes the cleric more relevant), constructs and the like. I think I could live with that better than the alternative, where MM isn't a force effect at all.

Making that the official fluff seems needlessly complicated. To-hit might be nice, but the issue with a to-hit roll may come in at higher levels with multiple missiles (not to mention situations that could put advantage or disadvantage on the lot).

There's a lot you could do to rejigger the balance and make sense of the effect. I'd prefer to shorten the range, assume it has spread out damage like a shotgun to help explain the autohit, and say that small light objects tend to be knocked over rather than actually damaged. Maybe explicitly mention that the spell is loud so you'd want a rogue to bypass doors, traps, and chests.

Quote from: Benoist;543482As for me just playing with AD&D, well DUH! I can and will do that in the event that things that rub me the wrong way pile up in D&D Next to the point I will consider it a pain in the ass to retool and house rule the game to do with it what I want. Note that there IS a difference here for me between having modules and options in the game that you can turn off and on, and having to completely retool it to play the way I want.

But then, in the latter case, WotC runs into a significant problem: if enough people are doing this, then D&D Next fails at its design goal, which is to provide a structure of rules that enables Marleycat, jibbajibba and me to play OUR D&D games with it. And that's the real danger here, as TCO noted some time ago: that the game ends up being a big "meh" to several subgroups of D&D fans, to just end up switching audiences with the same bottom-line issues it had with 4e.

Honestly, I see very little chance they can avoid this outcome no matter what they do. If they change too much, they set folks like you off, if they change too little, they provide no incentive for most folks to change editions. The worst part is that that line is different for just about everyone. I don't envy them. I see nothing but unemployment compensation in their future, but maybe I'm being too cynical.