Quote from: Halloween Jack;542633We were talking about Vancian wizards. Don't derail, son. But if you want to play D&D, my Encounters group meets tomorrow.

Yup and Vancian means D&D magic system now. That is what the word has become.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;542633Fine; you can replace everything you consider hyperbole with "Negotiate with the DM; hope to avoid an outright 'no' or punitive result" and the point still stands.

No it doesn't.  Because not all wizard spells clear and precise without interpretation.  Especially creative uses of spells (like sending a fireball down a hallway to take out traps.)

And who spends 20 minutes describing what they do with a 10 foot pole.  More like 20 seconds.  And even then it's only a problem if you have a dick DM, and in that case, get another DM.

Seriously, the problem I have with people like you who constantly like to bring out the "mother may I" excuse is because it doesn't hold up under any scrutiny, so you constantly use as much hyperbole as possible.  I have never seen a gaming table where players are begging at the feet of DMs for a certain ruling.  Players make their case, the DM rules on it and you move on.  This is true of ALL editions because there is no way you can have a rule spelled out for every scenario.

No, the problem is hardly ever the game, it's with your DM.  And like I said, if you have a DM who unreasonably denies a reasonable request, get a new DM and stop blaming the game.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;542635Yup and Vancian means D&D magic system now. That is what the word has become.

Vancian means of or like magic in the works of Vance; specifically, the Dying Earth stories.

Benoist, Brendan, you kids need to read yourself some actual fantasy literature. You can pick up the Tales of the Dying Earth omnibus for a song these days; give it a whirl.

Otherwise, Brendan, please go to this thread and explain to some people about the evolution of the meanings of words over time.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;542642No it doesn't.  Because not all wizard spells clear and precise without interpretation.  Especially creative uses of spells (like sending a fireball down a hallway to take out traps.)

And who spends 20 minutes describing what they do with a 10 foot pole.  More like 20 seconds.  And even then it's only a problem if you have a dick DM, and in that case, get another DM.

Seriously, the problem I have with people like you who constantly like to bring out the "mother may I" excuse is because it doesn't hold up under any scrutiny, so you constantly use as much hyperbole as possible.  I have never seen a gaming table where players are begging at the feet of DMs for a certain ruling.  Players make their case, the DM rules on it and you move on.  This is true of ALL editions because there is no way you can have a rule spelled out for every scenario.

No, the problem is hardly ever the game, it's with your DM.  And like I said, if you have a DM who unreasonably denies a reasonable request, get a new DM and stop blaming the game.

You can replace pretty much every perceived problem that 4e "fixed" with either "dick DM", "whiny player", or "yeah, 3e broke that, not a problem in actual TSR D&D".

Quote from: Halloween Jack;542644Vancian means of or like magic in the works of Vance; specifically, the Dying Earth stories.

Benoist, Brendan, you kids need to read yourself some actual fantasy literature. You can pick up the Tales of the Dying Earth omnibus for a song these days; give it a whirl.

Otherwise, Brendan, please go to this thread and explain to some people about the evolution of the meanings of words over time.

Guys, FYI, all any of us ever read is D&D licensed novels.  The game design experts at Something Awful told me so.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;542644Vancian means of or like magic in the works of Vance; specifically, the Dying Earth stories.

This isn't how words work. Most words have multiple meanings that change with context, and they evolve over time. Vancia , in this context clearly means D&D magic of the fire and forget variety.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;542633We were talking about Vancian wizards. Don't derail, son. But if you want to play D&D, my Encounters group meets tomorrow.

You got that wrong. We were talking about D&D MUs using something generally known as "vancian" magic, with spell slots, fire and forget and so on, whereas you are attempting to redirect the debate to talk about an emulation of the Dying Earth series, which D&D is not about. You're the one attempting to shift the goalpost here, kid. This isn't RPGnet. You won't get away with it.

When I want to play D&D, I want to play D&D. Not the game-that-people-who-don't-like-D&D-wish-it-were.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;542633Fine; you can replace everything you consider hyperbole with "Negotiate with the DM; hope to avoid an outright 'no' or punitive result" and the point still stands.

Newsflash: a role playing game is first and foremost a social activity that involves several people who collaborate to create a shared imagined space in the act of play. What you want is not a role playing game. It's a cheap knock-off of card and boardgames. I suggest you get up to speed and think before you say stupid shit like this.

So play your comic book anime superhero wizards with "fire-and-forget" magic, then. There's no need to corrupt "Vancian" to mean some awful implementation of magic that lacks any of his creativity or innovation.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;542667So play your comic book anime superhero wizards with "fire-and-forget" magic, then. There's no need to corrupt "Vancian" to mean some awful implementation of magic that lacks any of his creativity or innovation.

Alternatively:  Fuck off back to your 4rrie forum.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;542667So play your comic book anime superhero wizards with "fire-and-forget" magic, then. There's no need to corrupt "Vancian" to mean some awful implementation of magic that lacks any of his creativity or innovation.

Hmm, Dr. Strange never stopped to re-memorize a spell, neither did any anime character I have seen (maybe in Lodoss War somewhere).

What happened, Jack, did your few posts from a couple weeks back where you were making sense get you in trouble with the boys at SA, so now you have to come here and troll like a useless cunt again?

Quote from: Halloween Jack;542667So play your comic book anime superhero wizards with "fire-and-forget" magic, then. There's no need to corrupt "Vancian" to mean some awful implementation of magic that lacks any of his creativity or innovation.

I sure will keep on enjoying D&D, thanks for the advice. In the meantime, I encourage you to go buy a copy of the Dying Earth RPG (in PDF here, or Print there), so you can actually enjoy an emulation of Jack Vance's world in RPG form that already exists. And there! You can enjoy your game, I can enjoy mine. No need to change D&D into a shit game. Ain't that beautiful?

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;542669Alternatively:  Fuck off back to your 4rrie forum.

He can't, because even he is starting to get warnings from the mods.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;542672He can't, because even he is starting to get warnings from the mods.

You gotta go a step further:  HJ's contributions here and on little purple amount to nothing more than something to run back to SA with HUUUUUURRRRR, I TROLLED DA GROGS, DID YOU GUYS SEE?!?  He's a lapdog, they toss him treats and pat him on the head over there.

I like the idea of at-will cantrips. For example, prestidigitation and ghost sound, wizards mark and mage hand. Even in most 100% Vancian prior editions these spells were often effectively at will, either due to durations or number of cantrip slots or inexpensive magic items or whatever. And while sometimes creative players could find combat uses for these cantrips, they were primarily for non-combat uses, often to further role playing and color.

I think the issue is a bit different when they include combat spells. What door could hold up to a continual barrage of magic missiles for 10 minutes for example? I think thats where the issue really comes up, with combat spells, rather than the mere concept of some magic being at-will.

Yes. While I don't think the Magic Missile spell is actually very good in combat, out of combat the idea of being able to just hit something with force automatically and at no cost kinda makes me shudder.

In the hands of an intelligent player I think its going to see a lot of abuse.