Quote from: GRIM;302018I think you're conflating adult/mature with intellectual/deep.

That particular confusion happens in lots of places with lots of different people.


- Ed C.

Quote from: flyingmice;301990In the Three Musketeers - I love it BTW - I am not told if Madame deWinter wore nipple rings, neither am I informed whether Aramis preferred it doggy style with a riding crop.

Thank goodness.

Quote from: flyingmice;301990The importance of sex - or torture - in the book is not measured by the number of sweaty phrases used, but by the characters and plots endlessly circling around it, like satellites about a planet. And that's a good thing!

Agreed, which leads me to believe I may be overthinking your use of the word "theme."

Sex is certainly a recurring motif, one associated with power relationships between the characters in the story, so the way I'm reading you, sex (and other mature topics) are reasonable themes in a roleplaying game but are best handled without attention to the minutiae. Would that be a reasonable reading?

Quote from: The Shaman;302095Thank goodness.Agreed, which leads me to believe I may be overthinking your use of the word "theme."

Sex is certainly a recurring motif, one associated with power relationships between the characters in the story, so the way I'm reading you, sex (and other mature topics) are reasonable themes in a roleplaying game but are best handled without attention to the minutiae. Would that be a reasonable reading?

Actually, there are two points that are getting mixed up. One is my personal taste, which is exactly what you are saying here, and the other is a widespread cultural misuse of the terms "Adult" and "Mature." As for the first, I'm just bitching. People have different limits. For example, I really like John Ringo's Kildar/Ghost series of novels, but there is WAY too much detail on the sex for me, which kills some of the pleasure I get in reading the series. My wife has no such problem. Her personal limit is much higher than mine.

What I'm driving at in the second point is the widespread assumption that "Adult" and "Mature" == sex and/or grotesquerie. This plays into a mindset where the more of this you have in your games the more "Adult" and "Mature" it is. I think those labels are being misused. they should also include things like difficult, knotty societal problems without a clear-cut solution; a willingness to look at both the good and bad points of people and society; complexity and nuance in relationships; and other things of this type. That a game - or novel or movie - cannot be considered adult or mature unless it has detailed sex or torture or squickiness, no matter what the content otherwise, offends me deeply.

This is, of course, tilting at windmills - a rant if you will, without the spittle flying.

I blame movies and their imbecilic rating systems.

-clash

-clash

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/common_incs/popup.php?id=fcnoctum.jpg

By the look of the cover someone is a fan of Cannibal Corpse

Quote from: HinterWelt;301714Are squirrels inherently evil or do they just act that way?

Do squirrels drive you mad?

"The Horrible Intelligence of Tree Rats was his unfinished masterpiece."

Quote from: flyingmice;301959I love doing stuff like that too, but with two caveats:

A: The situation is organic to what's going on - when it occurs, the players should say "Oh, crap! I didn't think of that!" not "WTF?"

B: There is always a third way out. They are not forced to choose "Either" or "Or", they can choose "Neither." Your situation is an illustration of this. The UN asked them to lead the pirates into a trap. They didn't say "Lead them into a trap or else!."

-clash

Regarding B:  that was the point.  If they were a bunch of black op agents, then there would not be a moral dilemma.  They would have just set up the trap and saw if it worked or not.  Instead they had to deal with the question of whether to agree to do this or not.  The UN unofficially offered the bribe of some cutting edge equipment that would greatly increase their survival chances.  Plus they were afraid that sooner or later the Pirates would show their true colors and make them walk the plank.  So they agreed.  Ultimately they agreed to be assassins for hire for In Kind payment.

since one of the pirates excaped.  He's been doing everything to paint them as assassins and agent provocateurs in the world press.  They are not pleased.  But they are happy with their shiny new toys.

Quote from: flyingmice;302138What I'm driving at in the second point is the widespread assumption that "Adult" and "Mature" == sex and/or grotesquerie. This plays into a mindset where the more of this you have in your games the more "Adult" and "Mature" it is. I think those labels are being misused. they should also include things like difficult, knotty societal problems without a clear-cut solution; a willingness to look at both the good and bad points of people and society; complexity and nuance in relationships; and other things of this type. That a game - or novel or movie - cannot be considered adult or mature unless it has detailed sex or torture or squickiness, no matter what the content otherwise, offends me deeply.

Got it.

Yes, I agree.

Just a question: how would a mature game not end in flames in our age of moral ambiguity, unless the group is private and on the same page on the subject?

Quote from: islan;302412Just a question: how would a mature game not end in flames in our age of moral ambiguity, unless the group is private and on the same page on the subject?

Its a hard thing to do. Even when you think the whole group is on the same page. They are not always. As I found out the hard way with the old group from the FLGS. I guess the best you can do is make sure everybody knows what sort of game they are getting into exactly. A clear definition, synopsis (sp?) or what not, should be provided. Like in my case I should have better spelled out that they were playing a crew taking down scores in the movie Heat. Not like at least one of the players that though they were thieves like in Sneakers. Which honestly I realy dont get where he got that idea in the first place. But I think it would have maybe helped if I had a handout that said specifically what was what. (Even I thought I had done that verbally.)

Quote from: islan;302412Just a question: how would a mature game not end in flames in our age of moral ambiguity, unless the group is private and on the same page on the subject?

What do you mean by mature?

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;302418What do you mean by mature?

-clash

As opposed to Adult / 18+ / XXX / NC17 / Cinemax After Dark.

In other words, as preferred by the OP.

Quote from: islan;302412Just a question: how would a mature game not end in flames in our age of moral ambiguity,

Is this really an "age of moral ambiguity" ?

Or is that just the viewpoint that YOU bring to the topic.
 The groups I usually ran would normally take a moment to discuss this kind of thing. They also knew not to take too long in discussing - after all RPGs have to have some action scenes.  There usually is an agreed upon moral standard for most people. Things like : Rape, murder, and slavery are generally considered very bad or evil things to do.

Quoteunless the group is private and on the same page on the subject?

MOST RPG groups are private - in someone's house or other similar place. Heck, evwn if such a game wwere held at the store I work at - there are ways to handle a such a game and seem somewhat "PG-rated" to the casual observer.


- Ed C.

Quote from: islan;302412Just a question: how would a mature game not end in flames in our age of moral ambiguity, unless the group is private and on the same page on the subject?

What makes you think we are in an age of moral ambiguity....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;302431What makes you think we are in an age of moral ambiguity....

Regards,
David R

Beat me to it.