Quote from: Jaeger;1074481Critical Role episodes are obviously staged sessions. I watched one. They are just too damn smooth.

What do you define as "staged"?
Being done in front of an audience? Critical Role definitely is.
Being done on a set? Also true for Critical Role.
Having lighting, sound and makeup? Also true.
Being well prepared? Looks true also, as in that the GM has done some careful planning of the session.
Being scripted, as in having the order of things happening being defined and communicated to the players in advance? I would say highly unlikely.

Or do you have anything else in mind when you use the word "staged"?

Quote from: Jaeger;1074662Look again at what he actually wrote:
....
As in the GM and players planning together for how the session will be Staged.

They are all in on it.

We seem to have different interpretations of what Shark meant by the word "planned". You seem to interpret it as "scripted", I as guidelines (table rules) for an RPG game session.

OK hold on.

You say "staged" which I presume to mean people are memorizing their lines and playing it all out like an actual TV show.

But then you point out stuff like them just preparing, and Matt picking players who want to have that kind of in depth RP experience. That's not staging! That's just preparing and being "on" for the cameras. So in that sense, yes, it's different than a home game! Of course it is! Everyone already pointed out you don't want to be the idiot that ruins it in for everyone in front of the cameras.

In that sense, YES, of COURSE, it's a produced professional show. But that's just the players and Matt being on good behavior so they can make a good stream. That doesn't mean they are pre-planning the story or plotting out what's going to happen or Matt is showing an outline.

They aren't even as perfect as you say. The players make mistakes all the time; the one player death in the second campaign of CR was from the player not reading his own abilities. They make dumb mistakes all the time. Matt just lets them get away with it a lot (which he's criticized for).

So, first of all, I am confused what I am arguing against
Against that claim that they bringing out their best Sunday suit for a professional on-camera RPG sessions? (How dare they!)
Or against the claim that it's significantly scripted - beyond what goes on in a normal RPG session with a pre-written adventure?

It would be nice to know.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074625Virtually no out of character cross talk. Almost no looking at cell phones. Everyone is hyper attentive to Mercers GM soliloquy's. Like really attentive.

Boy, would I be pissed if I was to stage a professional-level on-camera actual play and this wasn't the case with my players.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074625And his prolonged soliloquies are obviously written ahead of time. No pauses to think what to say next, just smooth delivery with occasional downward glances at some notes.

A GM having a prepared, clear mental image of a scene, similar to boxed text in a published scenario? Virtually unheard of!
You're not helping your case but I enjoy playing - so I'll go along.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074625Combat really tells the story. No hesitation from the players what they want to do when it is their turn. No pausing and weighing of options, no questions about in game effect to the GM, Ever. WTF.

That's because Mercer is obviously what Paranoia RPG referred to as limp-wristed GM. He's going easy on the players because it makes for better entertainment value. The players know their PCs are unlikely to die. That's why there's no need to extensive arguing (which I am certain they want to avoid because it is bound to be confusing to look at and thus detracts from the viewing experience). It's quite likely that there is some behind-the-scenes agreement that he'll go lightly on them - if they avoid extensive arguments and tactical analysis paralysis in return.

I have played under GMs like that - in non-public sessions. So, it's wrong to not consider it roleplay. It's just not a good representative of what your average role-playing campaign looks like, at least in my gaming circles. Although my friends are also kinda limp-wristed (whereas I am the tough He-Man GM).

Quote from: Jaeger;1074625If you are not being dazzled by the smooth presentation and production values, and pay attention to what is actually going on (or rather what is not going on) during play, it is obviously not an "authentic" game session.

Their goal is NOT to be representative of 50% of games out there. It's to be entertaining to viewers and that involved keeping the action going. They're bringing their A-game because they get attention and money for doing so.
That's a far cry from being anymore scripted than any adventure that I have run. How is this tantamount to being actors that play role-players playing a role-playing game?

I am losing my patience with the nonsense in this thread.

Quote from: RoyR;1074629That Matt's descriptions often are written in advance is no secret, and I don't think anybody has argued otherwise

Prepared descriptions of a scene or character? Astounding!

Quote from: RoyR;1074629So if you are watching some episodes you will encounter many instances where the players are unsure of their actions, or even try to do something that is not within the rules.

I haven't managed to sit through a single full episode (even though I am clearly bedazzled by hypnotic Mr Mercer) and evem I know that. My main exposure comes from analyzing combat and particularly how much time they spend on a couple of things during combat. Very helpful reference in designing your own system.

That said, you will have to admit that they make sure the action never grinds to a halt for long. Because of the audience. Why anyone would hold that against them is beyond me though. It's just a fast-paced game.

Quote from: RoyR;1074629They are really good at not giving each other tactical tips out of character. That is to say, they are really good at not metagaming. Which is something I would love some players to learn from.

Be a limp-wristed GM and communicate to your players that they don't need to do meta-gaming to get ahead. That's really it.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074633Nobody is that smooth and dedicated, without a conscious effort for 3 hours straight.

Unless they're on camera and getting paid for it. You can be sure that if I was on Critical Role, I would be just the same.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074633He had speed bumps, but when you watch his latest videos, a presentation that smooth with no editing is only achieved through some degree of Staging.

We should be careful to not reach staged-moonlanding levels of reasoning here... or maybe we shouldn't!

Quote from: Jaeger;1074633To what degree the game sessions are staged it totally up for debate. But there is a lot of thought and planning that goes into what you see. It is too polished not to be.

Fair enough.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074642You just don't get that close to an "Ideal" without planning and forethought beforehand.

It's impossible to be concentrated in front of a camera for 4 hours, including a half-time break! (Especially after how many episodes of experience with that now?)

I think you're underestimating how group psychology works - who of those wants to stick out like a sore thumb and be the one derailing/disturbing the game on camera? Repeatedly. It takes much less discipline than you think.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074642Which is absolutely intentional! It has to be, to be that good. [...]
I have got to give it up to Mercer, his bedazzlement powers are strong. I guess the idea that there is a group out there that can actually have such Idealized gaming sessions, is too strong a dream for some to admit that it can't be 100% real.

Sounds more like jealousy, tbqh, famalam. And I'm not even a fan of the show (or d20 in general).

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1074745That's because Mercer is obviously what Paranoia RPG referred to as limp-wristed GM. He's going easy on the players because it makes for better entertainment value.

I definitely run games that resemble what I've seen of Critical Role, where the players plunge in roleplaying/hamming it up like crazy, the pace of action is breakneck, and the energy levels stay high the whole session. My new 3-hour Primeval Thule sessions have been very like that.

I also run much more adversarial games and yes they are often much slower paced. In the middle of a tough battle in Rise of the Runelords recently a player asked "Can we break here and restart next week when we have a plan?" - obviously I said no.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1074745So, first of all, I am confused what I am arguing against...

This is clear.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1074745I haven't managed to sit through a single full episode

This is also clear.

Think they might be related?

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1074745Or against the claim that it's significantly scripted - beyond what goes on in a normal RPG session with a pre-written adventure?

Please show one post that I made that makes that claim.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1074745I am losing my patience with the nonsense in this thread.

Think how I must feel.

People can't even be bothered to look up the actual definition of Stage or Staged!

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1074745It's just not a good representative of what your average role-playing campaign looks like, ....

Agreed.

Because:

 

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1074745Their goal is NOT to be representative of 50% of games out there. It's to be entertaining to viewers and that involved keeping the action going. They're bringing their A-game because they get attention and money for doing so.

I have been saying that very same thing ad-nauseam.

Even to you, the following is Obvious:

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1074745That's because Mercer is obviously what Paranoia RPG referred to as limp-wristed GM. He's going easy on the players because it makes for better entertainment value. The players know their PCs are unlikely to die. That's why there's no need to extensive arguing (which I am certain they want to avoid because it is bound to be confusing to look at and thus detracts from the viewing experience). It's quite likely that there is some behind-the-scenes agreement that he'll go lightly on them - if they avoid extensive arguments and tactical analysis paralysis in return.

By your own admission of what is obviously going on:

1: "...easy on the players because it makes for better entertainment value."
2: "players know their PCs are unlikely to die."
3: "...quite likely that there is some behind-the-scenes agreement..."

Doing all three things for the sake of "entertainment", means that what CR does is by definition not an authentic game of D&D.

When something is not authentic people often use an interchangeable phrase: "It's Fake!"

It is not real.  

CR is a Staged Game that does not represent the way D&D is actually played.

Your own observations prove this to be true.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074825This is clear.



This is also clear.

Think they might be related?




Please show one post that I made that makes that claim.




Think how I must feel.

People can't even be bothered to look up the actual definition of Stage or Staged!




Agreed.

Because:

 

I have been saying that very same thing ad-nauseam.

Even to you, the following is Obvious:



By your own admission of what is obviously going on:

1: "...easy on the players because it makes for better entertainment value."
2: "players know their PCs are unlikely to die."
3: "...quite likely that there is some behind-the-scenes agreement..."

Doing all three things for the sake of "entertainment", means that what CR does is by definition not an authentic game of D&D.

When something is not authentic people often use an interchangeable phrase: "It's Fake!"

It is not real.  

CR is a Staged Game that does not represent the way D&D is actually played.

Your own observations prove this to be true.

Greetings!

QED.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Jaeger;1074825CR is a Staged Game that does not represent the way D&D is actually played.

It seems to be less fake than a lot of the actual games I see discussed online! A lot of GMs absolutely won't kill the PCs, ever!

Quote from: Jaeger;1074825Please show one post that I made that makes that claim.

There is nothing in that post that indicates that the segment was specifically directed at you. In fact, its placement indicates that it's not. It was meant to express that it would be nice if the people who criticize CR could get some consensus on what the actual problem is. It would help clear things up and make my life easier.

Quote from: Jaeger;10748251: "...easy on the players because it makes for better entertainment value."
2: "players know their PCs are unlikely to die."
3: "...quite likely that there is some behind-the-scenes agreement..."

Doing all three things for the sake of "entertainment", means that what CR does is by definition not an authentic game of D&D.

By your definition. You will not find agreement from me here. I specifically and preemptively pointed out above that I have been in games where the GM has been lenient on the players (and I guess I have to add that it was readily apparent to the players, even without explicitly expressing it). To no avail, it seems.

Or do you take umbrage with the explicit agreement (which is not established fact, mind you)? Or should they have made that agreement in front of the cameras: "Don't worry, dear audience: no PC is going to die here, no matter how grim things might look like."

Quote from: Jaeger;1074825CR is a Staged Game that does not represent the way D&D is actually played.

Yeah, it's radically different from D&D/other role-playing, hardly recognizable... I suppose there are scores and scores of experienced D&D GMs that take a look at CR and say: "No, this is fake, this is inauthentic." Unless they're too bedazzled by Matt Mercer...

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1074833..
Yeah, it's radically different from D&D/other role-playing, hardly recognizable... I suppose there are scores and scores of experienced D&D GMs that take a look at CR and say: "No, this is fake, this is inauthentic." Unless they're too bedazzled by Matt Mercer...

We are in agreement then. Fantastic.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074825It is not real.

Welcome to D&D!  None of it is real.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074825CR is a Staged Game that does not represent the way D&D is actually played.

Citation needed.  Making wild accusations like this NEED proof.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074825Your own observations prove this to be true.

Do they?  Do they really?  Or are they based ENTIRELY on opinion?

Don't bother.

Quote from: Jaeger;10748253: "...quite likely that there is some behind-the-scenes agreement..."

As you seem to be unwilling to answer my previous questions, I add a new one (as hope springs eternal):
Could you outline what you think is covered in this alleged agreement?

The accusations of "it's staged!" seem more like "good/professional manners" to me, if you know you're going to be on a televised broadcast.
They are actors. Every time they're on-screen, it's an audition, whether they know it or not. Good sense would be to make sure they come across as animated and engaged during the session.

A better argument for it being somewhat staged is that a pregnant woman and several gamers who are regularly eating and drinking for 4 hour shifts, with a singular 15 minute break, never have to get up and use the restroom during normal game time.

Even an agreement to take it easy on rules contesting isn't any different than what most players and GMs have, as an informal understanding of what's appropriate. There's a big difference between "good manners" and "this is scripted."