Gaining skills and experience requires opportunity.  

Opportunity (or the lack of) is often correlated with race.  

As a society, we either need to ensure equal opportunity (preferred) or we have to address the results of that lack of opportunity with the damage it does to society.  The 'best person for the job' might not be able to get there because of a variety of roadblocks including, but not limited to, various 'gatekeeping' attempts all the way up to the job itself.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1078995There's nothing wrong with pointing out that inclusivity is hard.  If you don't try to make it happen, it won't happen.

No, it's rather easy.  Let anyone in, even those you don't agree with.  The ones that don't want to be there, won't be.  But you'd be amazed at who wants to join.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1078995but I promise you, most of the room is at the head of the table with the billionaires, and if they let you scoot over there, we'd all have enough space.

Agreed.  So...maybe people should talk a little bit more about the Privilege of Class and Wealth instead of assuming some white boy born to a methhead single mother has a Free Ticket.

Quote from: Omega;1078968Nope. And if it is the same Taliesin I knew many a year ago, Then people should be a little careful with handing him money or anything he is associated with.

I know him. I've known him since the early 90s. He's a good guy, and plenty trustworthy, and has always been that way.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1078995our system is designed to ensure that minorities (like Iowans) are not completely ignored by majorities (like Coastal Areas.

Well, geography matters. A country cannot afford to neglect the interests of whole regions without creating separatist movements and having to constantly force these regions to stay a part of the country at gunpoint.
The same is not true for social groups/tribes. In fact, you cannot ensure correct representation for all the tribes: institutions would fall apart if you'd try to reflect the demographical composition of the constituency across multiple dimensions: gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. It's not feasible; that's a pipe dream.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1078995For this system to keep working, other minorities need a voice and representation.  

Gentle reminder: one central ideology of the 20th century was about creating "fairness" (equality) between individuals. Basically eliminating rich and poor. Eliminating priviledges for the children of rich people. Current generation of democrats not-withstanding, it failed. You cannot eliminate individual priviledge without central planning which causes in turn damage to the economy - and to people's liberties. (Plus you'll end up having a priviledged bureaucratic class.)

What does make 21st century people think they can eliminate the priviledge of groups (tribes) without the same means and without the same results? Priviledge (within limits, of course) is the way of life; it's the result of desiring that one's own off-spring has a head-start in life compared to the children of other parents, among other things. I have to wonder what the descendants of currently priviledged groups will think of their parents and grandparents when they will compare their lot in life with the station in life their ancestors had.

Will they see the current generation as the generation that gave the farm away to the children of different parents? Will they curse their ancestors?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1078995but I promise you, most of the room is at the head of the table with the billionaires, and if they let you scoot over there, we'd all have enough space.

Some people have learned nothing from the 20th century. Your remark at least raises questions. How do billionaires occupy space that other people would benefit from?

As for inclusivity in games, to return to the topic, it's not an issue for me: I'll play with anyone no matter where they're from or what they do between games for as long as they're enjoyable gamers (and they're not involved in criminal activities and the like). We don't need to make a science out of it.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1079016Gaining skills and experience requires opportunity.  
As a society, we either need to ensure equal opportunity ....

Done.

All the legal barriers have been removed In the US for more than 50 years. And as a "society" that's all you can legally do.

You can't force individuals to do anything else. And you shouldn't. Everyone has the right to choose for themselves.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1078995There's nothing wrong with pointing out that inclusivity is hard.  If you don't try to make it happen, it won't happen.  
.

No one is under any moral obligation to "try" anything. It's called freedom of association.

Quote from: sureshot;1079009... This is a hobby to us not a job. ...

This.

We do this for fun. NO ONE has a right to tell us who our friends should be, or who we should play with.

NO ONE.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1079018No, it's rather easy.  

I certainly find it's very easy to let people of many races, both sexes, and a multiplicity of sexual orientations (& trans) play D&D with me.
They just have to want to play.

Woke: Critical Role needs to become more diverse!
Normie: How do you suggest they do that?
Woke: That's not my problem. Stop harassing me!

Also, here's a couple of white women congratulating each other on supporting those poor defenseless PoC.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1078947WTF is a "diversity stretch goal"?

Its sounds like creepy tokenism. Give us $10k and we'll have an Eskimo rub their junk on every book!

That's literally what it is (at least if you replace rubbing their junk with working on a project), and @Wundergeek admits to having those kind of goals in their campaigns. So by their own admission Critical Role is already more woke then they were.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1078995There's nothing wrong with pointing out that inclusivity is hard.  If you don't try to make it happen, it won't happen.

How do you suggest we do that?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1078995The 'state' in our pluralistic democratic society is composed of representatives some of whom are more 'representative' than others.

The 'state' in this case is the internet and RPG 'community', and the only reason someone wouldn't be able to represent themselves is if they were blocked, banned, or deleted. So which group holds the power to do that, and do you really think they're concerned about people with different regional needs being heard?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1078995We believe that putting different people with different regional needs together to suss out the common good is the best way to make sure that everyone gets what they need.

And have you seen what that results in when it comes to gaming, which regularly engages in 'edition wars' and arguments over whether you should roll low or high? They're already divided, but that's fine because everyone's needs are being met and nobody is preventing anyone from following in Critical Role's footsteps.

Well that's not exactly true, as the biggest thing preventing black people from participating in geek hobbies are other black people, but strangely that never gets addressed.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1078995Minority voices pointing out that there isn't always room at the table isn't a problem.

No, the problem is all these woke white folk speaking for them.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1079016Gaining skills and experience requires opportunity.  

Which anyone can do if they put the work in like everybody else. Expecting everything to be handed to someone because of their gender or race usually does not mean they get everything. Or expecting to coast byand not put the effort in because of gender or race

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1079016Opportunity (or the lack of) is often correlated with race.  

Sometimes yet more often than not people expect the equivalent of a free lunch for everything and refuse to work at it. It's not society fault if a woman or POC decides to major in interpretative lesbian dance theory and no one wants to hire them or pay them the salary they they want rather. It's not white person fault who decides to go into business or science majors who probably get paid more. Sometimes it's skin color yet more often than not it's entitlement and poor life choices.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1079016As a society, we either need to ensure equal opportunity (preferred) or we have to address the results of that lack of opportunity with the damage it does to society.  The 'best person for the job' might not be able to get there because of a variety of roadblocks including, but not limited to, various 'gatekeeping' attempts all the way up to the job itself.

All our society has to be based on is a meritocracy and nothing more. POC, female or other sexual identity should not be a factor. As outside places with diversity and inclusivty quotas most places hire the person with the right skills, knowledge and experience. I sure as hell am not hiring POC who has no experience in fixing cars to work in my body shop if I had one. Most companies only make a token effort and diversity and inclusivity anyway imo as they are not going to lose profits. Saying that hiring only the person with the right skills, knowledge and experience for the position is gatekeeping is pure and utter bullshit. It is good business practices. You want to run a company into the ground and bankrupt with poor hiring practices spend your own money.

More importantly one can't force people to go into careers they do not want go into. Maybe if their was a guaranteed salary attached once they graduate with good grades you might see POC  or women  go into careers dominated by white people. Other than that as I said you can't force them do so.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1079042Well that's not exactly true, as the biggest thing preventing black people from participating in geek hobbies are other black people, but strangely that never gets addressed.

There seem to be a good number of black D&Ders in London these days. Did use to be quite rare though. I'm guessing it's much like white 'jock' culture being down on the nerds.

I was struck by how many black players the Tomb of Annihilation campaign apparently attracted, and most have stuck around to play other stuff. Sometimes Diversity Casting in RPG settings can feel silly, but for American & British D&D campaign settings I guess it makes sense to have some 'these are the black people' ethnies, so black players don't have to play white PCs if they don't want to.

Quote from: Jaeger;1079038Done.
You can't force individuals to do anything else. And you shouldn't. Everyone has the right to choose for themselves.

Maybe it is just me yet all the SJWs in the hobby demanding more POC, female, gays and trans all come off as having a very creepy totalitarian bent when they demand it be done. Freedom of choice forget that you have to get POC, female, gays and trans and the damn table. More time passes the more the Left seems to be more controlling than the right.  never taught I would see that in my lifetime. What are we supposed to do go out and grab a POC atie him to a chair and make him join a session.

Quote from: Jaeger;1079038No one is under any moral obligation to "try" anything. It's called freedom of association.

Apparently more "you will have POC, woman and LGBT at your table and they will join one whether your or they like it or not" vibe I am getting more and more lately/

Quote from: Jaeger;1079038This.

We do this for fun. NO ONE has a right to tell us who our friends should be, or who we should play with.

NO ONE.

How dare you say that Jaegar. Check your white privilege.

Unlike some members of the hobby to be part of the cool SJW kids club throw away all their self-respect to join that club. If I can get POC, or LGBt members to my table I will. I will not forced to do so under any circumstances. All are welcome as long as they behave and are respectful of others and keep politics out of the table.My hobbies are for fun and not injecting politics into them

Quote from: S'mon;1079041I certainly find it's very easy to let people of many races, both sexes, and a multiplicity of sexual orientations (& trans) play D&D with me.
They just have to want to play.

For some SJW nutjobs it's still not enough you have to have 75-85% of the table be anything other than white straight males. Otherwise your not trying hard enough and should feel white guilt as well.

Quote from: sureshot;1079045the cool SJW kids club

The average SJW makes the average D&D nerd look like The Fonz.

Quote from: S'mon;1079047The average SJW makes the average D&D nerd look like The Fonz.

Yeah, we shouldn't mistake high-profile alpha SJWs for rank and file homely, socially inept, resentful SJWs. The movement overwhelmingly attracts people with an unattractive psychological profile - insecure, anxious, inflexible, judgemental. Certainly not the sort of people who become cool and popular. The cool and popular SJWs are basically ambitious types who will adopt whatever behaviours and attitudes will earn them more status in a community. They would behave differently if they were trying to climb to the top in a different social environment.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1078995There's nothing wrong with pointing out that inclusivity is hard.  If you don't try to make it happen, it won't happen.

Except you can not make inclusivity happen. The moment you do it stops being about being inclusive and you relegate us to a dam checklist.
If the only reason you want me at the table is because you want a "cripple" to check off your inclusive (read: virtue signaling) list then Im probably going to punch you in the face.

Instead just play the damn game and hope to attract the interest of anyone. Not just those on some checklist.