Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1074544That's the thing. I watch them and they just seem to be using their normal acting skills from their jobs to make their RPing more colorful and that's why it's smooth. But that doesn't mean it's faked....

Again, CR is not just smooth due to the vocation of the participants; it's Too Smooth.

It's is absolutely Staged to some degree.


For Example:

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1074020Or maybe he disagrees with you that it's all that different from a normal D&D session. The main differences being

• professional voice acting
• unnaturally constant cheeriness
  
• unnatural high attention span
  
• stylish gaming board and minis, I guess

....

By your own admission, what they are doing is Unnatural.

It's just too clean for everyone not to be consciously making a Staged presentation to an audience.

Virtually no out of character cross talk. Almost no looking at cell phones. Everyone is hyper attentive to Mercers GM soliloquy's. Like really attentive. And his prolonged soliloquies are obviously written ahead of time. No pauses to think what to say next, just smooth delivery with occasional downward glances at some notes.

No Editing of the actual play (I'm sure that stuff like music and character stat pop ups are added in post). The lack of editing is a big tell that they are all on the same page with what they are doing. Combat really tells the story. No hesitation from the players what they want to do when it is their turn. No pausing and weighing of options, no questions about in game effect to the GM, Ever. WTF.

No out of character tactical debates among the players of how to deal with a threat. 7 players who never have out of character debates of what to do next. They are all in general agreement with what they are all doing. All the time. With 7 different players? That's 100% Unnatural.

They are in character and super smooth all the time. Almost 100% On point for 3 hours!?

Impossible without being staged to some degree.

Too Smooth too Unnatural.

It is an obvious Staged presentation.

If you are not being dazzled by the smooth presentation and production values, and pay attention to what is actually going on (or rather what is not going on) during play, it is obviously not an "authentic" game session.

There is some actual game there - they are using the D&D game as a type of randomizer of results.

But to pull of what they are doing, takes skill, talent and planning.

Luckily, they all happen to be trained Voice actors and actresses;)

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1074610People should actually watch them play instead of what they imagine is happening.

Take your own advice.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1074610Also they DO have off topic conversations and you can see Matt get annoyed when it happens.

Absolutely he'd get annoyed, because when it happens, (which is much rarer than in real groups) it detracts from the presentation.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1074610They even had a That Guy™ that would argue with Matt and try to powergame everything that they had to kick out.

Wasn't down with the program. Detracted from the presentation. Had to go.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1074610They're actors, so obviously they're predisposed to have their tastes run in that direction. It's not really unlikely at all.

100% unlikely that it is coincidence the group is composed of people with the skills to pull off what they are doing.

Why can't they just be a good player group with mature players who're dedicated?

I have groups where nobody talks out of character. Not every group has to be full of tactical gamers who argue OOC what to do. In fact, I forbid it in my own games. I also run online games on roll20 where everyone is super attentive for 4 to sometimes *EIGHT* hours! And it's all in character. I concede they do ask rule questions though, but Matt also opens the rulebook to answer Qs now and then, and his reading written text is pretty old hat for GMs.

I guess if you never played that way it does look unnatural, but to me it just looks like how we normally play but they're just better at it.

Meanwhile my offline group has exactly the traits you mentioned, but they're all "problem solving" players who mostly play to plan their way around obstacles rather than play out personalities.

People think because the CR guys are playing to live out a personality that it's not real, but it's just them having a different preference for the type of D&D they play.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074625Virtually no out of character cross talk. Almost no looking at cell phones. Everyone is hyper attentive to Mercers GM soliloquy's. Like really attentive. And his prolonged soliloquies are obviously written ahead of time. No pauses to think what to say next, just smooth delivery with occasional downward glances at some notes.

That Matt's descriptions often are written in advance is no secret, and I don't think anybody has argued otherwise

Quote from: Jaeger;1074625No Editing of the actual play (I'm sure that stuff like music and character stat pop ups are added in post). The lack of editing is a big tell that they are all on the same page with what they are doing. Combat really tells the story. No hesitation from the players what they want to do when it is their turn. No pausing and weighing of options, no questions about in game effect to the GM, Ever. WTF.

The music and some of the on-screen graphics are done live. I believe the music is played by Matt using Syrinscape.
And the players are definitely hesitating sometimes on what they should do next. Though they are really good at being attentive, and having mostly thought through what to do when it is their turn. And Matt is often telling the next player in turn after the current one to get ready to keep the game flowing. So if you are watching some episodes you will encounter many instances where the players are unsure of their actions, or even try to do something that is not within the rules. This has been such a common occurrence that some of the players have been heavily criticized for not learning their own characters capabilities.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074625No out of character tactical debates among the players of how to deal with a threat. 7 players who never have out of character debates of what to do next. They are all in general agreement with what they are all doing. All the time. With 7 different players? That's 100% Unnatural.

They are really good at not giving each other tactical tips out of character. That is to say, they are really good at not metagaming. Which is something I would love some players to learn from.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1074626Why can't they just be a good player group with mature players who're dedicated?

You're dazzled.

Nobody is that smooth and dedicated, without a conscious effort for 3 hours straight.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1074626...I guess if you never played that way it does look unnatural, but to me it just looks like how we normally play but they're just better at it.

But they're not "just better at it."

They're better at it 100% of the time every session. Super smooth, Virtually No glitches. That's an intentional effect.

Intentional effects take effort and planning.

Yes mercer was rougher in the early days. So what? He saw a winning formula and ran towards it.

He had speed bumps, but when you watch his latest videos, a presentation that smooth with no editing is only achieved through some degree of Staging.

Mercer had to consciously plan what he wanted his videos to be like, and select his group of players to get to that point.

To what degree the game sessions are staged it totally up for debate. But there is a lot of thought and planning that goes into what you see. It is too polished not to be.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074633To what degree the game sessions are staged it totally up for debate. But there is a lot of thought and planning that goes into what you see. It is too polished not to be.

Matt knows that he will have thousands of viewers following his campaign, so it is natural he is more prepared than the general GM. I know I would be in those circumstances, for sure.

And you are missing the role of selection: there are hundreds of streamed RPG games, and this one has one of the largest followings, and thus we are talking about it. Part of the reason is that they happen to have only very dedicated people involved. And there is nothing strange about that, as at least one out of the hundreds of games should have that by pure chance, even if the typical game only have one or two persons that are that dedicated.

Quote from: RoyR;1074629That Matt's descriptions often are written in advance is no secret, and I don't think anybody has argued otherwise. The music and some of the on-screen graphics are done live. I believe the music is played by Matt using Syrinscape.

Just one data point among many that all points to the planning involved into making the presentation smooth.

Quote from: RoyR;1074629And the players are definitely hesitating sometimes on what they should do next. Though they are really good at being attentive, and having mostly thought through what to do when it is their turn. And Matt is often telling the next player in turn after the current one to get ready to keep the game flowing. So if you are watching some episodes you will encounter many instances where the players are unsure of their actions, or even try to do something that is not within the rules. This has been such a common occurrence that some of the players have been heavily criticized for not learning their own characters capabilities.

Pointing out exceptions in some episodes does not disprove the general rule. The fact that they are hitting so close to an "Ideal" form of game play that they get criticized for their missteps should be telling in and of itself.

You just don't get that close to an "Ideal" without planning and forethought beforehand.

Quote from: RoyR;1074629They are really good at not giving each other tactical tips out of character. That is to say, they are really good at not metagaming. Which is something I would love some players to learn from.

Which is absolutely intentional! It has to be, to be that good.

I've done podcasts (non RPG related.), and GM'd my share for games.

You just don't get to the degree of polish and presentation Mercer has gotten to in CR Videos, without significant planning and preparation behind the scenes.

Quote from: RoyR;1074634Matt knows that he will have thousands of viewers following his campaign, so it is natural he is more prepared than the general GM. I know I would be in those circumstances, for sure.

But he didn't get those 1000's of viewers overnight. His presentation is intentionally done to be as good as it is to grab and retain audience.

Quote from: RoyR;1074629And you are missing the role of selection: there are hundreds of streamed RPG games, and this one has one of the largest followings, and thus we are talking about it. Part of the reason is that they happen to have only very dedicated people involved. And there is nothing strange about that, as at least one out of the hundreds of games should have that by pure chance, even if the typical game only have one or two persons that are that dedicated.

LOL! There is nothing "Pure Chance" about a CR game session. It is too polished to leave totally up to chance.

The only "role of selection" happening is Mercer's drive to present a highly polished presentation.

On this very thread; By it's defenders own admissions, players who weren't down with the program were kicked to the curb! By it's defenders own admissions, the degree to which the players project cheeriness, have a high attention span, and talk in character 100% of the time is unnatural.

I have got to give it up to Mercer, his bedazzlement powers are strong. I guess the idea that there is a group out there that can actually have such Idealized gaming sessions, is too strong a dream for some to admit that it can't be 100% real.

Greetings!

Jaeger, you make some excellent points, and I appreciate your detailed breakdown of *how* the show is worked out. I agree. I think if I was to get 7 or 8 friends together, to play D&D and at the same time have it filmed LIVE in front of thousands of viewers--you damn straight we would have a lot of planning. I would say hey, study your abilities, know your characters, have your shit DOWN. Make notes, have this shit together. Would you want to be the one doofus that fucks the show up in front of thousands of viewers? I know I wouldn't. I can also see how he would insist on everyone training themselves to NOT ask stupid questions, don't get into stupid debates, and learn to perform, but also to just run with shit more, and not interrupt or sidetrack the game. Yes it's a game, but also a SHOW. Before thousands of people, watching. Noone wants to watch Doofus A and Doofus B have some stupid argument about tactics for 20 minutes. Yeah, that shit's not happening, you know? Also training and being aware NOT to engage in metagaming. Just focus on doing your character, performing, and listening to the others, and pay the fuck attention to the DM. These are all absolutely ESSENTIAL for the show to be a success.

Otherwise, if these disciplines were not learned and adhered to, the show would be stupid and boring like most all of the other video shows of game sessions. That's why the other shows are obscure and not watched very much, while CR has a huge fanbase and is watched regularly with a crazy popular following.

Good stuff. There's some neat things that can be embraced by home groups, for certain. But CR is a SHOW, first and foremost. That doesn't mean it isn't also a game session, but there are simply essentials that must be adhered to, if the show is to be successful, interesting, and entertaining. The scope is much different. Home game: DM and players. That's it. A You-Tube Show? DM, players, and thousands of fans viewing the show, every week. That changes a whole lot of things in how you have to go about running and organizing things.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: RoyR;1074629They are really good at not giving each other tactical tips out of character. That is to say, they are really good at not metagaming. Which is something I would love some players to learn from.

Agreed. And it's something that most people are perfectly capable of. I have players who watch Critical Role and are trying to model their game off it to some extent, so I'm going to ask them to take a page from the show and not metagame so much.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074642You just don't get to the degree of polish and presentation Mercer has gotten to in CR Videos, without significant planning and preparation behind the scenes.

Do I understand you correctly that what you are criticizing now is that Matt is actually too well prepared for a game as a GM?
Because it obviously is very well prepared sessions, but I never thought that I would see that as an example of some kind of fake or bad GMing. Rather the opposite.

Quote from: RoyR;1074648Do I understand you correctly that what you are criticizing now is that Matt is actually too well prepared for a game as a GM?
Because it obviously is very well prepared sessions, but I never thought that I would see that as an example of some kind of fake or bad GMing. Rather the opposite.

No, you purposely understood me incorrectly.

Never said he was a fake or bad GM. Just his extensive prep is one data point along with the others I pointed out, that when taken as a whole, show how well STAGED the CR game sessions are.

All you just did was put words in my mouth, and tried to derail the debate over a side issue, without having to address my argument as a whole.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074655No, you purposely understand me incorrectly.

Never said he was a fake or bad GM. Just his extensive prep is one data point along with the others I pointed out, that when taken as a whole, show how well STAGED the CR game sessions are.

All you just did was put words in my mouth, and tried to derail the debate, without having to address my argument as a whole.

No. I stated my understanding of your point in my own words, and asked you if I had got it correctly. Which I hadn't. Thanks for that.
But now I'm unsure what your point actually is. Could I humbly ask you to restate your argument regarding Critical Role?

Quote from: SHARK;1074646Greetings!

Jaeger, you make some excellent points, and I appreciate your detailed breakdown of *how* the show is worked out. I agree. I think if I was to get 7 or 8 friends together, to play D&D and at the same time have it filmed LIVE in front of thousands of viewers--you damn straight we would have a lot of planning. ... Also training and being aware NOT to engage in metagaming. Just focus on doing your character, performing, and listening to the others, and pay the fuck attention to the DM. These are all absolutely ESSENTIAL for the show to be a success.

Otherwise, if these disciplines were not learned and adhered to, the show would be stupid and boring like most all of the other video shows of game sessions. That's why the other shows are obscure and not watched very much, while CR has a huge fanbase and is watched regularly with a crazy popular following. ...

This.

And these things have to be done intentionally.

To consistently put out that degree of professional presentation is not some thing that just organically happens by chance.

Why some people have a hard time accepting this, I do not understand.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074642LOL! There is nothing "Pure Chance" about a CR game session. It is too polished to leave totally up to chance.

The only "role of selection" happening is Mercer's drive to present a highly polished presentation.

On this very thread; By it's defenders own admissions, players who weren't down with the program were kicked to the curb! By it's defenders own admissions, the degree to which the players project cheeriness, have a high attention span, and talk in character 100% of the time is unnatural.

And here you misunderstand my point. Which was that with hundreds of streamed games, one will have the highest concentration of dedicated players. And as that one will be the most enjoyable to watch, it will be that one that we discuss. And it seems to be Critical Role. That was the role of selection I was discussing.

Quote from: Jaeger;1074657This.

And these things have to be done intentionally.

To consistently put out that degree of professional presentation is not some thing that just organically happens by chance.

Why some people have a hard time accepting this, I do not understand.

But I don't see anything in what Shark writes that is controversial. This as it is consistent with playing a game of DnD, live, for an audience. Which puts demands on careful planning from the GM of the session for it to be enjoyable, as with most other RPG sessions. And I don't think any of the fans of Critical Role will have a problem with what Shark is stating either.

Quote from: RoyR;1074661But I don't see anything in what Shark writes that is controversial. This as it is consistent with playing a game of DnD, live, for an audience. Which puts demands on careful planning from the GM of the session for it to be enjoyable, ...

Look again at what he actually wrote:

Quote from: SHARK;1074646...
Jaeger, you make some excellent points, and I appreciate your detailed breakdown of *how* the show is worked out. I agree. I think if I was to get 7 or 8 friends together, to play D&D and at the same time have it filmed LIVE in front of thousands of viewers--you damn straight we would have a lot of planning...

Yup, that's right. We.

As in the GM and players planning together for how the session will be Staged.

They are all in on it.

Quote from: SHARK;1074646...There's some neat things that can be embraced by home groups, for certain. But CR is a SHOW, first and foremost.

SSSHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...............

Don't tell anyone. If you do, they won't believe you.

Quote from: RoyR;1074656No. I stated my understanding of your point in my own words, and asked you if I had got it correctly. Which I hadn't. Thanks for that.
But now I'm unsure what your point actually is. Could I humbly ask you to restate your argument regarding Critical Role?

LOL! Nice try!

I salute your brazenness!

You even threw in a thank you and a humbly! I give you a 5.6 on disguising your intentional obtuseness just to mess with me.

Shark got it. And I'm sure he isn't the only one that had no trouble getting what I was saying.

Believe what you want to believe pal.

At this point if everything I was saying is beyond your ability to comprehend, then Mercers bedazzlement spell on you is just too strong.

I bow to his superior sorcery, after all, not everyone you talk to will want put down the kool-aid.