Again no one saying its not a potential issue. I'm sure some in the hobby expect that D&D has to be played like a session if CR. To the extent thst Pundit and others make it out to be hardly imo.

Quote from: Motorskills;1072176It is vaguely amusing that it was this of all things that united the RPGsite.

I'd hardly consider this site united about this subject.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1072181This started originally on Reddit. Someone posted something describing this problem, then a bunch of other people posted that they had had the same problem, then Matt Mercer did his "everyone has something to contribute." Pundit didn't make this up. You don't have to agree, but it's not crazy to worry about it, since a bunch of people reported the problem initially on that Reddit thread long before he posted about. I'd be upset if whenever I tried to run a game people told me that everyone has to dress up in costume or that I somehow had to run the game like Matt Mercer.

Exactly.  Pundit is far from the only one who has been talking about this issue.

Quote from: kythri;1072185I'd hardly consider this site united about this subject.

Definitely true, but the level at which people who have come to this site (presumably because they share some commonality with Pundy) have been willing to call him out on this is indicative of something.

QuoteExactly.  Pundit is far from the only one who has been talking about this issue.

And if what Pundy were doing was merely talking about the issue, people probably would be universally supportive. However, he's done more, including suggesting that it is a big problem, that it is effecting lots of non-CR-crowd-people's tables (to a degree where a simple 'this isn't CR, adjust your expectations' does not solve the problem), and that Mercer's response is insufficient/disingenuous. I think that these additional positions, combined with a few beliefs that I think are creeping into this site--Pundy is bitter and vindictive of WotC/Modern gaming/anyone who is succeeding at making a living at RPGs more successfully, Pundy is trying to monetize outrage (and thus we are not the customers here, but the product), Pundy is trying to gatekeep the hobby (despite resistance to such things being a major reason a lot of people are here), etc. -- are, IMO, just highlighting some of the strains here within the site.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1072219And if what Pundy were doing was merely talking about the issue, people probably would be universally supportive. However, he's done more, including suggesting that it is a big problem, that it is effecting lots of non-CR-crowd-people's tables (to a degree where a simple 'this isn't CR, adjust your expectations' does not solve the problem), and that Mercer's response is insufficient/disingenuous. I think that these additional positions, combined with a few beliefs that I think are creeping into this site--Pundy is bitter and vindictive of WotC/Modern gaming/anyone who is succeeding at making a living at RPGs more successfully, Pundy is trying to monetize outrage (and thus we are not the customers here, but the product), Pundy is trying to gatekeep the hobby (despite resistance to such things being a major reason a lot of people are here), etc. -- are, IMO, just highlighting some of the strains here within the site.

Seconded.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1072219highlighting some of the strains here within the site.

I don't feel strained by disagreeing with my beloved Pundit - if I wanted to lick some demagogue's ass, there's plenty of places where that is expected & required behaviour. Being able to disagree and to call out bullshit even from On High is the biggest attraction of this place!

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1072219Definitely true, but the level at which people who have come to this site (presumably because they share some commonality with Pundy) have been willing to call him out on this is indicative of something.

And, I'd point out, that this is nothing new.  I've been here 9-10 years, and from the get-go, people have been calling Pundy out because they disagree with him.  Ironically, more often than not, time proves him correct.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1072219And if what Pundy were doing was merely talking about the issue, people probably would be universally supportive. However, he's done more, including suggesting that it is a big problem, that it is effecting lots of non-CR-crowd-people's tables (to a degree where a simple 'this isn't CR, adjust your expectations' does not solve the problem), and that Mercer's response is insufficient/disingenuous. I think that these additional positions, combined with a few beliefs that I think are creeping into this site--Pundy is bitter and vindictive of WotC/Modern gaming/anyone who is succeeding at making a living at RPGs more successfully, Pundy is trying to monetize outrage (and thus we are not the customers here, but the product), Pundy is trying to gatekeep the hobby (despite resistance to such things being a major reason a lot of people are here), etc. -- are, IMO, just highlighting some of the strains here within the site.

Oh, horseshit.  Is his style purposely loud and bombastic?  Certainly, like any number of commentators (though, to be honest, I couldn't name any in this specific subject/genre), but based on jealousy over RPG publishing success?  Give me a break.  This has been his style consistently, since before he was even publishing anything, so, before he had anything to be jealous about.

He has adopted a provocative style that garners some attention.  Oh, my stars and garters.

As far as gatekeeping, that's an equally horseshit accusation.  Point out a specific example of his attempt at gatekeeping, please.

Quote from: kythri;1072228As far as gatekeeping, that's an equally horseshit accusation.  Point out a specific example of his attempt at gatekeeping, please.

Being part of the OSR 'movement' is a form of gatekeeping.  You (the general you, not you personally, Kythri) are defining a distinctive, in this case, play style in such a way that if you don't do it this way, you're doing it wrong.

Now, is he banning people for it, well no, that's just silly, he doesn't want to kill any potential audience to his side of the edition warring.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1072260Being part of the OSR 'movement' is a form of gatekeeping.  You (the general you, not you personally, Kythri) are defining a distinctive, in this case, play style in such a way that if you don't do it this way, you're doing it wrong.

Now, is he banning people for it, well no, that's just silly, he doesn't want to kill any potential audience to his side of the edition warring.

Oh, come on....

By that definition having any particular interest at all, and proclaiming that interest, makes you a "gatekeeper". This would easily turn into World of Gatekeepers, since almost every solitary human being on the planet (and likely those few in the ISS as well) has particular interests and occasionally declares that interest.

Like Punk Rock? Call yourself a "Punk Rocker"? Want other people to get interested in Punk Rock? Gatekeeper.

This would go ad nauseam...

The worse thing you can say CR is doing as a bait-n-switch.

Oh no I have all these players with incorrect expectations but after a session or two some of them get-it and stay around!

Matt Mercer is a used-car salesman (The horror!)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1072260Being part of the OSR 'movement' is a form of gatekeeping.

Horseshit, for the third time.

With the exception of the leftist shitbags who have attempted to co-opt the OSR, the OSR is welcoming and inclusive, and wants people to come play their games.  They're not trying to get anyone to stop playing other games.  They're not trying to keep people out of the hobby.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1072260are defining a distinctive, in this case, play style in such a way that if you don't do it this way, you're doing it wrong.

So, then, by that completely idiotic definition, every single RPG ever published is gatekeeping, because they've defined distinctive rules and play-styles that, by default, if you're breaking them/ignoring them, you're playing that game wrong.

You realize how epically stupid that sounds, I hope?

I never watched Critical Role before listening to Pundit's video. After watching a few, I am left with interesting questions about what Pundit thinks the DM's job is.

Quote from: kythri;1072279Horseshit, for the third time.

With the exception of the leftist shitbags who have attempted to co-opt the OSR, the OSR is welcoming and inclusive, and wants people to come play their games.  They're not trying to get anyone to stop playing other games.  They're not trying to keep people out of the hobby.

Edition warring is gatekeeping, by saying 'your version is better' and those who don't agree with you are doing it 'wrong'.  That is gate keeping.  I don't care if you don't like it, it's still gate keeping.  Deal with it.

Quote from: kythri;1072279So, then, by that completely idiotic definition, every single RPG ever published is gatekeeping, because they've defined distinctive rules and play-styles that, by default, if you're breaking them/ignoring them, you're playing that game wrong.

You realize how epically stupid that sounds, I hope?

No, because it's clear you didn't think it through.  Most games will tell you to 'play it your' way, the whole 'Rule Zero' thing:  If the game is doing something you or your group doesn't like, you have every right to change it in a manner that makes you all happy.  After all, it's your game.

The only two games/movements that do otherwise are the OSR/Old School (did you read Gronan's response to Spinachcat's desire for an array for his older edition game?) and White Wolf's Storyteller system.  The former proclaims that there was this mystical One True Way that everyone played back in the day, and the other has built in mechanics that punish you for going outside the lines (the Humanity system.)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1072292Edition warring is gatekeeping, by saying 'your version is better' and those who don't agree with you are doing it 'wrong'.  That is gate keeping.  I don't care if you don't like it, it's still gate keeping.  Deal with it.

No, because it's clear you didn't think it through.

To which I reply, again:  Horseshit.  You're full of it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1072292The only two games/movements that do otherwise are the OSR/Old School (did you read Gronan's response to Spinachcat's desire for an array for his older edition game?) and White Wolf's Storyteller system.  The former proclaims that there was this mystical One True Way that everyone played back in the day, and the other has built in mechanics that punish you for going outside the lines (the Humanity system.)

I tend to ignore pretty much everything Gronan says.  I was pleased as punch that he rage quit, and disappointed that he apparently thinks so little of his wife's honor that he would return to participate on the very forum that so callously attacked her virtue (or whatever bullshit he was spouting when he had his temper tantrum).  tl;dr is no, I didn't read Gronan's spew.  And I'm pretty sure that was Kiero's desire for an array, but maybe there were two similar threads.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1072292Edition warring is gatekeeping, by saying 'your version is better' and those who don't agree with you are doing it 'wrong'.  That is gate keeping.  I don't care if you don't like it, it's still gate keeping.  Deal with it.

You don't seem to understand the term. Gatekeeping is keeping people out - not saying "Come through my gate, it's better in here!"

Quote from: S'mon;1072227I don't feel strained by disagreeing with my beloved Pundit - if I wanted to lick some demagogue's ass, there's plenty of places where that is expected & required behaviour. Being able to disagree and to call out bullshit even from On High is the biggest attraction of this place!

The fact that we get to is decidedly wonderful. I agree, it is the biggest attraction of this place. That doesn't change (and this is all perspective, I could always be wrong) that there seems to be an amount of strain over those that want to call out bullshit and those that want to circle the wagons. Case in point...

Quote from: kythri;1072228Oh, horseshit.  Is his style purposely loud and bombastic?  Certainly, like any number of commentators (though, to be honest, I couldn't name any in this specific subject/genre), but based on jealousy over RPG publishing success?  Give me a break.  This has been his style consistently, since before he was even publishing anything, so, before he had anything to be jealous about.

He has adopted a provocative style that garners some attention.  Oh, my stars and garters.

Loud, bombastic, and provocative? Yes, he's been doing that since we met him. I don't know why you bring it up. Actually, this entire paragraph could be shortened to 'I disagree/don't buy it.' Which is fine, but not a resounding rebuke. Regardless, I am simply voicing my perception about what is going on. I've made my one and only real disagreement with Pundy* clear a long time ago, and left it at that once I felt my voice was heard.  
*you can declare politics off limits for the gaming session, and make an exclusion to in-industry politics. That's your prerogative as site host. The distinction is meaningless, however, as people -- to whom you will not get to make your, 'but this is different' argument -- will vote with their feet, and thus we will have less people in the gaming session talking about actual gaming.

QuoteAs far as gatekeeping, that's an equally horseshit accusation.  Point out a specific example of his attempt at gatekeeping, please.

The several threads and videos trying to declare that people who watch the CR-like live-play videos are not gamers. Given that no one has any enforcement powers, arguing that someone else is not part of the hobby is the activity most worthy of the term gatekeeping that I can think of. Mind you, I agree on a linguistic level that using the term gamer to those that don't personally play is a poor choice of wording. But I don't try to pretend that it isn't an attempt at gatekeeping.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1072260Being part of the OSR 'movement' is a form of gatekeeping.  You (the general you, not you personally, Kythri) are defining a distinctive, in this case, play style in such a way that if you don't do it this way, you're doing it wrong.

This, although wrong, illustrates the point. No one... scratch that... very few people in the OSR movement are saying that people not playing OSR table top RPGs aren't playing table top RPGs (the exception being whichever OSR gamer initially called Chris here a bad name and started this crusade). As a general rule, OSR gamers recognize that non-OSR gamers are indeed gamers and part of the same community (although not the same sub-sect therein, or some such categorical distinction). Even if one of them says that X, Y or Z is doing it wrong (and we have all said, at one time or another, that something is bad/wrong or the like when we really meant that we don't like it/it is wrong for our tastes), that's not the same as saying that it isn't table top RPG-ing.