You could reword all the long rest abilities to "Once per day"

Quote from: Omega;964924It feels like everyones hitting less. But some are hitting more often, or harder. So YMMV there. But the extra HP from resistance or other tricks means that its even harder to knock down a PC sometimes. Or just takes a bit longer. Several monsters have resistances too.

Stacking ACs is hard for PCs. But depends on if they rolled stats or not. Any PC with access to good armour can hit AC 20 fairly quick if they get lucky with gold and invest it in armour. After that the max AC you can attain is probably 26. Possibly more if the DM is foolish enough to allow stacking rings and cloaks. So say AC 30 max. Though such items tend to only appear later in the campaign so not so much a problem and depending on the DM, even impossible to achieve since random treasure rolls can pass over your "build" consistently.

I don't see an issue with letting ring & cloak stack, that's 2 of 3 attunement slots used for +2 to AC. I think the Shield spell +5 to AC is more of an issue, the Bladesinger IMC is 13th level and can already hit AC 28 with Shield. She basically only gets hit on crits.

Quote from: S'mon;965002I don't see an issue with letting ring & cloak stack, that's 2 of 3 attunement slots used for +2 to AC. I think the Shield spell +5 to AC is more of an issue, the Bladesinger IMC is 13th level and can already hit AC 28 with Shield. She basically only gets hit on crits.

The shield spell only lasts a single round. Characters don't have a great number of spell slots anymore. Is the player spamming shield every round then demanding a long rest when the slots run out or something?

Quote from: S'mon;965002I don't see an issue with letting ring & cloak stack, that's 2 of 3 attunement slots used for +2 to AC. I think the Shield spell +5 to AC is more of an issue, the Bladesinger IMC is 13th level and can already hit AC 28 with Shield. She basically only gets hit on crits.

True. At best you could get a cloak and two rings for +3.

And er? How? Shield last only a round? A bladesingers powers are limited to light armour and no shield? So at best they have AC 12+DEX mod+INT mod. Assuming maxed stats that would be an AC of 22 while bladesinging without Shield. A 13th level Wizard has access to just 4 castings. Though at level 18 she can pick it up as an at will.

And yeah youd need a high level character to have a chance to hit. A Fighter for example with maxed stats and level 17 could hit on a 16 or better. An adult red dragon on a 13 or better.

Quote from: Omega;965045And er? How? Shield last only a round? A bladesingers powers are limited to light armour and no shield? So at best they have AC 12+DEX mod+INT mod+1. Assuming maxed stats that would be an AC of 23 while bladesinging without Shield. A 13th level Wizard has access to just 4 castings. Though at level 18 she can pick it up as an at will.

Certainly Shield is the most obvious at will 1st level spell to take at 18th level.

Importantly, the Wizard only casts Shield if they would be hit, so only an attack that hit AC23 would trigger it. But the 13th level Wizard could cast Shield more than 4 times with higher level spell slots; 3 second level spell slots, leaving 10 higher level spell slots for other purposes. My experience is that it's rare for a fight to last 7 rounds. Yes, the Wizard may be blowing everything in one fight and will really need a long rest, but if it's the climactic fight or an isolated wilderness location, that's not an unreasonable expectation. And they could also get back four Shield castings (or even five if one was 2nd level) via Arcane Recovery with a short rest.

True. You can blow higher level slots on Shield. At 13th level that would be 17 or so uses. If you havent cast anything else or used any to absorb  damage. But a 22 AC is allmost hittable by the sorts of monsters and NPCs might run into at 13th level. By that point several are probably sporting a +7 or more which means the Bladesinger is going to be hit about one in 5 or 4 attacks.

But of course the tradeoff is no spells left. But that would be a great hold the line defensive maneuver in the right circumstances.

Fixed my bad math twice.

Quote from: Omega;965099True. You can blow higher level slots on Shield. At 13th level that would be 17 or so uses. If you havent cast anything else or used any to absorb  damage.

Or, as I said, the lower half of spell slots on Shield and the higher more than half on other spells. (How useful are 1st and 2nd level Wizard spells at 13th level? Shield yes; Misty Step, I suppose; some useful support spells but more often out of combat, while most of the offensive uses are little better than a cantrip. Honest question, since I haven't played a Wizard above 6th level.) Fights are not going to last 17 rounds. Clearly the Shield defense is going to give way to "only" being AC23 if a fight goes long or a second fight starts without any rest.

QuoteBut a 22 AC is allmost hittable by the sorts of monsters and NPCs might run into at 13th level. By that point several are probably sporting a +7 or more which means the Bladesinger is going to be hit about one in 5 or 4 attacks.

So the Bladesinger at AC23 gets completely missed by, say, 3 such attacks (missing 3/4 of the time) in a round 27/64 of the time (3/4 cubed), and the Shield spell would (indeed, can) only be used if the caster is actually hit (or targeted by magic missile). So even a mere four slots could last an average of 7 rounds, and the Bladesinger doesn't get hit except by a critical (average of just over one in 7 rounds at 3 attacks per round). It's rare for fights to last more than 7 rounds in our 5e games; are your fights much longer?

QuoteBut of course the tradeoff is no spells left. But that would be a great hold the line defensive maneuver in the right circumstances.

Like I said, if it's a climactic fight or otherwise fairly certain to be followed by a long rest, it would definitely be well worth it. Certainly the character is not committed to do it in every fight, and could settle for the lesser AC of 23 if the fight is long or they started with depleted spell slots.

Shield is not so mighty for a more ordinary AC Wizard, who will probably get hit every round and may even still get hit after the +5 from Shield, thus burning through spell slots faster for less gain. The spell slot tradeoff is there in all cases, but the gains are much higher for a character with such a high armor class; worse than +2 AC from two (attunement) magic items, as S'mon said.

Another tradeoff in certain fights is that a Wizard might prefer saving their reaction for Counterspell.

Gotta love WotC D&D.

One of my players pointed out the following. Take a level in Monk and then go with Bladesinger and you have eventually a +15 AC if you can get all three stats maxed since the Bladesinger AC bonus is additive. You could do it too with a Barbarian. Tradeoff is no potential magic item bonuses.

Stuff that never occurred to me before.

Quote from: CRKrueger;965219Gotta love WotC D&D.

I get the feeling the Bladesinger didnt go through as much playtesting as the Undying or Swashbuckler did.

I personally found the rest mechanics were tied into several class features too strongly to just change the times associated. But with some house ruling, that could be changed. What I don't like about them is they set a certain tone. PCs can just charge into very dangerous combats, and unless they are utterly defeated, they will "walk it off". No healer required. At least a healer would run out of charges a day. Now the entire group is a poor healer themselves via rests, and add an actual healer to them, and they will walk from one danger to another. This gives the group a kind of brazen courage that I personally dislike, and I've found (in actual play) empowered certain play styles to attempt things that were bad for game.

I think if rests were increased, or their benefit diminished, the game would be better for it. The next time I run 5E, this is precisely what I plan on doing. It's kind of a shame that there's no serious or mortal wound mechanics in the game at all now. You are either dying, or on the road to complete recovery in a day.

Quote from: Coffee Zombie;965245I think if rests were increased, or their benefit diminished, the game would be better for it. The next time I run 5E, this is precisely what I plan on doing. It's kind of a shame that there's no serious or mortal wound mechanics in the game at all now. You are either dying, or on the road to complete recovery in a day.

No natural healing each long rest.  Instead, must use hit dice.  Give a level of exhaustion every death save rolled, whether successful on the save or not.  Put in a little old school time pressure (via wandering monsters and an adventure structure where the party can easily get in it deep before they start making a run for it).  The problem you describe completely goes away.  If the players stay in "charge in" mode when fully healthy, they'll regret it later.

I was able to move to that without much trouble, because the group I'm in was already cautious, even when not warranted by the system.  (I can be pretty mean even with a so called "forgiving" system.)  But whether weaned slowly off, or learning the hard way, a combination of slower rests, exhaustion rules enforced and house rules slightly, and adventures that reflect it--will work.

Quote from: Omega;965242One of my players pointed out the following. Take a level in Monk and then go with Bladesinger and you have eventually a +15 AC if you can get all three stats maxed since the Bladesinger AC bonus is additive. You could do it too with a Barbarian. Tradeoff is no potential magic item bonuses.

If you make that investment, then it has an opportunity cost and is probably fine.

QuoteI get the feeling the Bladesinger didnt go through as much playtesting as the Undying or Swashbuckler did.

Or the decided that a character totally invested in AC is going to be hard-to-hit, but not necessarily worse than a well designed diviner or abjurer (who have survivability through other mechanics). I'm not sure, I'd need to see the bladesinger in actual play a lot more to come to a hard opinion

Quote from: rawma;965173Or, as I said, the lower half of spell slots on Shield and the higher more than half on other spells. (How useful are 1st and 2nd level Wizard spells at 13th level? Shield yes; Misty Step, I suppose; some useful support spells but more often out of combat, while most of the offensive uses are little better than a cantrip. Honest question, since I haven't played a Wizard above 6th level.) Fights are not going to last 17 rounds. Clearly the Shield defense is going to give way to "only" being AC23 if a fight goes long or a second fight starts without any rest.

You're right. Fights will not last 17 rounds. But a day's worth of fights can. Shield is quite good (I say quite good and not overpowered because there are still plenty of things that do not key off AC) if you can get the 15 minute workday going. If not, and you have to conserve your spells.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;965040The shield spell only lasts a single round. Characters don't have a great number of spell slots anymore. Is the player spamming shield every round then demanding a long rest when the slots run out or something?

She has base AC 23 and being a Wizard is not in the front line, doesn't tank (they have a Barbarian for that, and a Moon Druid), so doesn't get hit every round. Maybe around once or twice a fight, and some of those are crits. She is certainly happy to burn her 1st level spell slots on Shield, occasionally dips into 2nd level slots. I don't think she is running out of slots - actually I don't think any of the PCs (mostly 13th level) run out of resources at a much faster rate than any other. Usually the group is out of hit dice & running low on hit points & healing as the main impetus to seek a long rest, I think.

They probably average 2-5 Hard to Deadly encounters per Long Rest, say 16 combat rounds in an adventuring day might be typical.

Quote from: Omega;965045True. At best you could get a cloak and two rings for +3.

And er? How? Shield last only a round? A bladesingers powers are limited to light armour and no shield? So at best they have AC 12+DEX mod+INT mod. Assuming maxed stats that would be an AC of 22 while bladesinging without Shield. A 13th level Wizard has access to just 4 castings. Though at level 18 she can pick it up as an at will.

She has a ring of protection, I think she has AC 14 armour too - +1 elf chain shirt with me counting elf chain as light armour, but it could just as well be +2 studded. Game is set on Golarion the Pathfinder world, mashing up Rise of the Runelords & Shattered Star, so magic is on the high end by 5e standards and this player maxes for AC, quite sensibly since a couple hits from a big monster could put her out.

They do face some monsters with up to +14 to hit (I think Pappy Kreeg was +13 or +14), so it's not plain sailing even with very high AC. Average foe is probably CR 8 with +8 to hit, with 2 or 3 attacks each. Might face 3 such in a typical encounter I think.