Quote from: Omega;1120102You'd be surprised at the number of designers who
A: Do not know about the bell curve.
B: Know of the bell curve but cant grasp it.
C: Have a little or alot of trouble with probabilities and interactions at all.

I suspect that one of the reasons d20 and percentile-based task resolution is so pervasive is that the probabilities SEEM easier to deal with.

Where a lot of those in categories B and C who THINK they're avoiding bell curve issues most often fall down is when they write rules that need multiple rolls to succeed (ex. 3e's climbing checks) and that effectively turns the resolution into a multi-die bell curve.

Many of these cases have even more weirdness because, again using 3e's climbing rules, one failure after two successes climbing a 40' wall is more punishing than one failure followed by two successes (i.e. you fall 30' in the first case vs. you take no damage and are now 30' up the wall).

Quote from: Chris24601;1120104I suspect that one of the reasons d20 and percentile-based task resolution is so pervasive is that the probabilities SEEM easier to deal with.

Where a lot of those in categories B and C who THINK they're avoiding bell curve issues most often fall down is when they write rules that need multiple rolls to succeed (ex. 3e's climbing checks) and that effectively turns the resolution into a multi-die bell curve.

Many of these cases have even more weirdness because, again using 3e's climbing rules, one failure after two successes climbing a 40' wall is more punishing than one failure followed by two successes (i.e. you fall 30' in the first case vs. you take no damage and are now 30' up the wall).

I'll add my pet peeve - exploding dice vs. a target number.

Ex. 1d6 exploding. Target number of 6 and target number of 7 are probabilistically equal, and I have yet to see a game designer take that into account.

Quote from: RandyB;1120107I'll add my pet peeve - exploding dice vs. a target number.

Ex. 1d6 exploding. Target number of 6 and target number of 7 are probabilistically equal, and I have yet to see a game designer take that into account.

Yes.  It's not as if this is all that complicated:  "Roll 1d6.  If get a 6, count as 5 but also roll again, adding to the total."

Unless you have something like these

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4098[/ATTACH]

I think that availability is why many exploding dice mechanics use a d10 due the common numbering scheme of 0 to 9.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120053Then your not getting what I am saying.  Pundit is actually doing well for himself while FFG is dying out due to their own arrogance.  Guess it isn't hard to create a pdf and pod versions of your RPG.  So why is FGG failing and had to lay off so many people?  Could it just be the games suck and cannot support the bloat that FFG made for itself?

Again, if quantity of sales is a measure of the quality of the product, then objectively Pundit's products must suck more than FFG's because FFG's products sell far more than Pundit's products. The number of employees or health of the company overall is not part of the equation you set forth - you set for an equation of "Sales=Quality". Well then, either your standard sucks or Pundit's products suck. Pick one.

Here is one a GM was talking to today brought up as a possible reason for the layoffs.

Tenure.

One of their friends has been hired and fired by a few local companies repeatedly. Why? So they arent there long enough to gain any benefits. Games Workshop has that as a policy for their shop workers. Fire em before they work there too long.

I doubt that is FFGs reason though. But as noted. This is not the first time theyve dropped a bunch of workers. But this is though I think the first where the cancellation of a line was abrupt and apparently unforeseen by FFG.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120070True, but if they made good rpgs that people wanted to buy then there wouldn't be lay offs.  Think on that.

Each RPG product by FFG out right now sells more than the combined total of all RPG products Pundit has ever sold. So if this is the standard, think on what that means.

It's an inane standard you're stating. Sales /= Quality of product. High-quality products sometimes don't sell as well as low-quality products, for a variety of reasons. It's not as simplistic as you're making it out to seem.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1120108Yes.  It's not as if this is all that complicated:  "Roll 1d6.  If get a 6, count as 5 but also roll again, adding to the total."

Quote from: estar;1120109Unless you have something like these

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4098[/ATTACH]

I think that availability is why many exploding dice mechanics use a d10 due the common numbering scheme of 0 to 9.

Do any of them have you count the '0' as 0 rather than 10, on exploded rolls? I haven't seen any, which is very far from "no one does".

Quote from: Mistwell;1120110Again, if quantity of sales is a measure of the quality of the product, then objectively Pundit's products must suck more than FFG's because FFG's products sell far more than Pundit's products. The number of employees or health of the company overall is not part of the equation you set forth - you set for an equation of "Sales=Quality". Well then, either your standard sucks or Pundit's products suck. Pick one.

Or they are two different products aimed at two different audiences. It would be like comparing the sales of Magic:TG to the sales of UNO.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1120129Or they are two different products aimed at two different audiences.

And since one is aimed at fewer audiences ergo it must be worse. That's the logic that's being disputed. You can't reconcile an objective measure of quality with sales.

Quote from: RandyB;1120113Do any of them have you count the '0' as 0 rather than 10, on exploded rolls? I haven't seen any, which is very far from "no one does".

Ars Magica various editions is one example. The situation is taking the highest roll and exploding is the common case but there are others.

QuoteStress Die
Stress dice are rolled when a character is under stress, and thus might succeed spectacularly, or fail with equal flair. Such a significant failure is called a "botch," and always has serious effects. For a stress roll, roll a ten-sided die. One and zero have special meanings, but the other numbers count for their value, as normal. On a roll of one, roll again and double the number rolled. If the re-roll is also a one, roll again and quadruple. On second and subsequent rolls, a zero counts as ten. If a player rolled ten consecutive ones, the number rolled on the eleventh throw would be multiplied by 1024. Stress die totals in the hundreds are likely to happen a handful of times in a long-running saga.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1120145And since one is aimed at fewer audiences ergo it must be worse. That's the logic that's being disputed. You can't reconcile an objective measure of quality with sales.

No it is not.  My argument was that FFG put themselves in the position where it was not sustainable with crappy products and thus forced to lay off people.  The reason why the products are crappy is because and this had been stated by others THE COMPANY IGNORES ITS PLAY TESTERS.  Not to mention making games that are high entry, IP is owned by some one else, and require parts (cards, specialty dice, tokens, and etc.) that only FFG sells.  That is a disaster waiting to happen.

SHEER VOLUME OF PRODUCTS SOLD WAS NOT MY ARGUMENT.  I don't know how to make that any more loud and clear to you guys.  Hell this is why I say Pundit is successful because he made it so that it is almost impossible for him to fail.  The man thought ahead and remove as many things possible that could ruin him.  Kevin Crawsford is very successful in this regard as well and his kickstarter reputation is fantastic which shows how successful he is.

FFG was always an anomalous timebomb in my thinking. Its games are for what I see as the "Dollhouse Gamer" (or "Tchotchke Gamer"), as opposed to the "Diorama Gamer." They have all these lovingly elaborate (and proprietary) pieces: various shaped cardboard chits with elaborate art, similar variety of plastic models, boardgame tiles, specialty dice, game tokens, et cetera ad infinitum. That's gotta cost in art, design, molds & prints, packaging, and so on.

Which is different from the "Diorama Gamer"  where you can recoup on book codeces, rebranded paint & brushes, repurchased models to complete squads, and so forth. You have a semi-complete core batch purchase and then the rest is bought to one's 'completionist' threshold -- which allows adjusting for the core set's & accessories' costs to be easily adjusted for profit margins. FFG games have to be whole upon purchase, with complete expansions thereafter -- no modular bits or repeat purchases to shift profit margins about.

It never made sense to me as a business model. Everything was too different and did not play in the same universe. They were discrete unto themselves. AND the games were not hobbies unto themselves, like diorama building, they were elaborate set pieces -- essentially finished at the time of purchase.

One of the big things about miniatures, CCGs, and RPGs is that they involve more out-of-game time than boardgames. They involve crafting playtime. They can be solo activities that invite returned contemplation & effort, which can involve returned purchases. So FFG products looked more to me like Barbie's Dreamhouse & Pool versus a LEGOs Pirates set + LEGO core blocks. The play is contained, specialized, and well-embellished yet prices out the DIYers.

It just looked like a company building pricey special editions that took too long to setup up and had not enough solo hobbyist activity. Hence my waiting for this seeming inevitable.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1120174It never made sense to me as a business model. Everything was too different and did not play in the same universe. They were discrete unto themselves. AND the games were not hobbies unto themselves, like diorama building, they were elaborate set pieces -- essentially finished at the time of purchase.

One of the big things about miniatures, CCGs, and RPGs is that they involve more out-of-game time than boardgames. They involve crafting playtime. They can be solo activities that invite returned contemplation & effort, which can involve returned purchases. So FFG products looked more to me like Barbie's Dreamhouse & Pool versus a LEGOs Pirates set + LEGO core blocks. The play is contained, specialized, and well-embellished yet prices out the DIYers.

It just looked like a company building pricey special editions that took too long to setup up and had not enough solo hobbyist activity. Hence my waiting for this seeming inevitable.

Their board games ro far better than their RPGs despite being costlier to produce. But according to FFG staff they have some good deals with various factories in China, though that comes at a proce as said factories tended to have alot of errors too. But they calculated that into their margin of error for orders.

FFG has pretty much sanely stayed away from the collectible trap. Even the CCG they acquired they released as a standard card game with expansions. Their LCG business model for their other card games seems to be working fine.

Um... you havent bought many board games have you? News flash. 90% of all board games, even from the same company, tend to be different every game unless its an expansion for an existing game.  Rare are the ones that can be used for other play like RPGs and such. "Diorama" is never a factor. These are just pawns with glitz.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120167The reason why the products are crappy is because and this had been stated by others THE COMPANY IGNORES ITS PLAY TESTERS.

So either stop shifting goalposts or express yourself better. To my question of "Why Are their games bad" you answered "Because the Market said so and they wouldn't be selling poorly if they where good". If you said "Because they don't playtest their games and have a very high barrier of entry and so the market had responded as such" we wouldn't be having this massive rigamaroll.