TheRPGSite

Massive Layoffs at FFG
 (https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/elfkbq/massive_layoffs_at_ffg/)

Just saw this come through.  Sad to see all those RPG staff being laid off.

But are those proprietary layoffs? :confused: :p

(:( My sympathies to the newly unemployed. Not a pleasant way to return from the holiday season.)

That's really shitty for those that lost their jobs, but it's hardly surprising regarding their RPGs. Take a look at their forum page for RPGs, and you can see almost a dozen lines they don't actually support plus Genesys, Star Wars, and L5R--and that's not counting their "archived" dead game lines.

Sadly yeah they did this to themselves. Edition treadmilling and just giving the proverbial axe to support does not engender customer confidence.

But FFG does periodically do a purge and then hire new blood. Pretty sure they did one about 10 years ago?

I wonder if they're dropping the Star Wars license.

Any word on when that's up for renewal?

I saw this on the X-Wing miniatures forum.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/304182-trouble-at-ffg/

I wasn't shocked about the online division. The online app builder for X-Wing is both atrociusly bad, and necessary to play the game. Most players agree that the 3rd party app builders saved their bacon.

Sad to hear about the RPG division. I didn't play their games, but layoffs are always bad news.

Yeah apparently all their RPG staff has been slagged. Sad news for them. FFG Star Wars had really good production. The game is pretty complete, they were down to just doing Era books and gear/ship books. So maybe they can get by with hired-guns and but I have no idea how they'll be able to afford that license...

It was good while it lasted, and I'll keep their stuff on the shelf with my WEG Star Wars stuff and use it proudly.

Quote from: tenbones;1118446Yeah apparently all their RPG staff has been slagged. Sad news for them. FFG Star Wars had really good production. The game is pretty complete, they were down to just doing Era books and gear/ship books. So maybe they can get by with hired-guns and but I have no idea how they'll be able to afford that license...

It was good while it lasted, and I'll keep their stuff on the shelf with my WEG Star Wars stuff and use it proudly.

My understanding is that the licensed is packaged with things like X-wing. As long as that makes money, they'll keep going even if the RPG hangs out on life support waiting to die.

Hopefully the books stay in production even if the staff, very sadly, were given the boot. The problem with the Star Wars line is, to my understanding, that due to the bizarre licensing contract PDFs technically come under video games? So unless you want to squint at passable-to-awful quality pictures people have taken on their phones, the books going out of print would truly do a number on the game. Nevermind the dice... though, I expect those would live on unofficially via Etscy or whatever.

I do enjoy FFG products a great deal, but the longevity of their lines will always be in doubt.

Sounds like it was due to Asmodee downsizing.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1118454Hopefully the books stay in production even if the staff, very sadly, were given the boot. The problem with the Star Wars line is, to my understanding, that due to the bizarre licensing contract PDFs technically come under video games? So unless you want to squint at passable-to-awful quality pictures people have taken on their phones, the books going out of print would truly do a number on the game. Nevermind the dice... though, I expect those would live on unofficially via Etscy or whatever.

I do enjoy FFG products a great deal, but the longevity of their lines will always be in doubt.

Sounds like it was due to Asmodee downsizing.

I considered picking up the PDFs of their L5R, but then remembered that it requires yet another unique set of dice (distinct from the interchangeable Star Wars/Genesys dice) and decided I'll keep on giving it a pass.

As much as the dice-issue was a HUGE roadblock for me. I came around on them. It took the pressure of my group and my desire to run Old Republic games in a "not d6" system to get me there. And watching a bunch of Runeslinger videos... but in the end, it came together. No regrets.

I wonder id any of their board games that rode the edition treadmil did poorly and effected the decision. I doubt it as the new Arkham Horror seems to be selling ok. But Eldritch Horror, the card games, etc seem to not be moving. But that may just be local quirks.

People on Reddit and Big Purplex are speculating that they'll keep doing some RPG stuff with freelancers, like a lot of the game companies these days. Make no mistake, this still royally sucks for the people laid off and I wish them a quick recovery, but maybe things aren't quite as dead as it seems.

I admit to loving the narrative dice system, all the way back to Warhammer third edition. I think Genesys is a great game, and I hope they release lots more stuff for it.

Quote from: Atsuku Nare;1118478Warhammer third edition

You shut your mouth and be cleansed, fiend. :mad:

Do we know for a fact that they are laying people off or is it currently just rumor and speculation?

Quote from: Antiquation!;1118480You shut your mouth and be cleansed, fiend. :mad:

Well Slaanesh has already won and given you WH4e...

Quote from: tenbones;1118488Well Slaanesh has already won and given you WH4e...

God of pleasure indeed...

Quote from: Antiquation!;1118490God of pleasure indeed...

Well I think only Slaanesh is pleased with WH4e... we don't count.

Quote from: tenbones;1118488Well Slaanesh has already won and given you WH4e...

Quote from: Antiquation!;1118490God of pleasure indeed...

Quote from: tenbones;1118506Well I think only Slaanesh is pleased with WH4e... we don't count.

Just As Planned... ;)

Quote from: Omega;1118474I doubt it as the new Arkham Horror seems to be selling ok. But Eldritch Horror, the card games, etc seem to not be moving. But that may just be local quirks.

The third edition of Arkham Horror has gotten universally bad reviews. It's not a terrible game but it's bland. The Arkham Horror Card Game is a great game but they've been producing expansions at an excessive rate. I'm probably four "cycles" behind.

There's also been trouble with X-Wing's new edition. FFG had to cancel a product for the first time and sales seem to be down overall (since much of the product is just reprints from first edition).

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1118520The third edition of Arkham Horror has gotten universally bad reviews. It's not a terrible game but it's bland. The Arkham Horror Card Game is a great game but they've been producing expansions at an excessive rate. I'm probably four "cycles" behind.

There's also been trouble with X-Wing's new edition. FFG had to cancel a product for the first time and sales seem to be down overall (since much of the product is just reprints from first edition).

What did they have to cancel?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1118524What did they have to cancel?

The 2nd edition version of the X-Wing Imperial Raider.

Also, just a clarification. FFG Interactive didn't do the apps for the various games (like the X-Wing app). That's done by Asmodee Interactive.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1118520There's also been trouble with X-Wing's new edition. FFG had to cancel a product for the first time and sales seem to be down overall (since much of the product is just reprints from first edition).

Apparently Imperial Assault has assumed room temperature.  Armada has some releases coming and Legion seems to be doing reasonably well with a big Clone Wars push coming shortly.

I think I'm about caught up on Imperials, need at AT-ST and some Snowtroopers and the E-web.

Then another unit of Deathtroopers, maybe more Shoretroopers...

(https://i.imgur.com/QVSu8cm.jpg)

Ole Pundit happy at the news color me surprised.

I think FFG like too many rpg companies had too many IPs to deal with. As well I think their proprietary dice turned potential gamers off. Yes their were ways around buying and using the dice, it was not up to gamers to do so. Even the new Star Trek rpg while having its own  proprietary dice are not required to use and much easier to use than FFG funky dice. The same thing they did with their 40K rpgs with multiple core books which were mostly reprints with a few new rules was also not going to get the average gamer to want to spend money buying multiple core books. The lack of PDFs which in this day and age is inexcusable. Granted it may not be FFG fault yet nothing will stop piracy and might as well make some money off legal PDFs.

It's too bad though because reading the system it was pretty decent and fixed some of the falws of D6 Star Wars as well.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1119259(https://i.imgur.com/QVSu8cm.jpg)

Why the joy at their failure? Is this one of those "They played games the wrong way!" things?

Let's not forget how all the Star Wars merchandising is down due to the bad reception of the new Trilogy (when they say that it has been "divisive" it means that it sucked especially hard).

The people I know who still play Star Wars' RPG either use the d6/d20 rules of yore, or FFG rules set in the OT - with the Expanded Universe as a source of ideas (you know, the one that Disney totally ditched when they bought the SW brand...)

I never *once* used any of their material set in the modern era.

And I got my money's worth. I'll happily give thousands of dollars to any company/individual that provides me with the amount of gaming material free of bullshit politics, that gave me as much enjoyment for my gaming group, and myself as FFG's Star Wars. It was a good run. All things come to an end with licensed IP's. I'd say FFG got 99% of what they needed. I'd have loved an mini-line set in the Revan Old Republic era... but oh well.

I never like any FFG games. They always had a boner for tokens and crap that took up space, but that's really sad to hear. Hope they all find something better very soon.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119265Why the joy at their failure? Is this one of those "They played games the wrong way!" things?

They made a lot of stupid actions that lead to this.  Yeah it sucks for people on the ground floor who can't call the shots, but for those on top I feel like they deserve it.  They still could making dark heresy games, but instead pissed off Games Workshop if the rumors are true.  Not to mention the specialty dice is another good way to scare off those that may want to purchase your tabletop rpgs.  Stick with the number dice like everyone else for crying out loud.  Your not being innovated your just being stupid by limiting yourself like that.

I mean the best example of how stupid FFG can be is with Dark Heresy Second Edition.  Instead of making tweaks here and there they decided to go with a brand new system.  It divided the community in half with those that favored it and those that hated it.  Then came gen con and once FFG found out they got a fucking dud on their hands they immediately made Dark Heresy 2.0 into the older system that is similar to Black Crusade/Imperial Guard rules.  Which all of it could had been prevented if they stuck with the old rule system instead of this weirdo system that people in their own forum told them was going to fail.  Hell I had my players test it out and we tried to figure out rate of fire rules for a hour.  Mind you the actual combat was only ten minutes long.

So yes FFG does deserve what it got.  The employees don't, but the big wigs of the company do.

Quote from: sureshot;1119264The same thing they did with their 40K rpgs with multiple core books which were mostly reprints with a few new rules was also not going to get the average gamer to want to spend money buying multiple core books.

I stopped buying their Star Wars RPG when they copied text from their Edge of the Empire book into their Age of Rebellion RPG without even applying the Errata they had already released.

BTW, they also just cancelled the Star Wars Destiny collectible dice game.

Personally, I think that this was primarily caused by the low sales of their X-Wing 2.0 game. Without the extra cash from X-Wing floating the company, all their low performing lines had to go.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1119307They made a lot of stupid actions that lead to this.  Yeah it sucks for people on the ground floor who can't call the shots, but for those on top I feel like they deserve it.  They still could making dark heresy games, but instead pissed off Games Workshop if the rumors are true

It isnt. It is more the other way around.
GW had FFG under some heavy restrictions throughout FFGs use of the IP. But the actual reason FFG dropped GW is that Games Workshop increased the licensing fee to a level FFG would not, or could not meet. Which is a common reason IP based games end abruptly.

I don't know how many board gamers are here, but I have noticed pretty bad performances to some of their big lines.
Runebound 2 was a classic adventure game that lived active life for next 10 years. It had dozens of small and couple of larger expansions. Runebound 3 however introduced a funny flip-a-coin mechanism and after 2 years they killed it off. It was suppose to be THE adventure game of FFG that ended up in big failure. Runewars miniature war game was also big franchise that every store was wanting to get rid off. Now after two years I see another adventure board game having a miserable failure -- Fallout. They have had success stories as well, CoC LCG, Imperial Assault, etc., but lot of big failures.

Another thing that puts FFG in bad situation is the market situation. So many games are getting produced these days. Before big companies like FFG were the ones able to pull off big product lines that you can enjoy for a decade. Descent, Runebound, Star Wars, LCGs, etc.  Now there is so many other games constantly getting attention that the consumer base is scattered.

One thing I would blame is the Kickstarter. In gaming business it's a massive marketing tool that is used by medium sized companies and amateurs alike. Not FFG, because they are used to be a brand on another level. So even though the tabletop gaming hobby in general is thriving (perhaps even growing), I'd simplify it to a zero sum game. All the gaming budget of all the gamers is a constant. And in a market where there is one block buster Kickstarter campain every month. Projects that take 3+mil from that common budget. Where minimum pledge is close to 100 and all-in is close to 300 - 400. People are just over-spent and overwhelmed of these Kickstarter projects. And there are so few actual success stories from gamers perspective, where a game has a life after several years of it's release.

So we have situation where pre-order campaigns are getting lot of money, but delivering very little quality. And then there is FFG that is producing quality + support, but is struggling with because Kickstarter marketing is more shiny/superior than what FFG does nowadays. So, FFG is in this situation because they have made mistakes. They should design games better and market them better. But it's sad when FFG simply dies out because of this.

Quote from: Omega;1119318It isnt. It is more the other way around.
GW had FFG under some heavy restrictions throughout FFGs use of the IP. But the actual reason FFG dropped GW is that Games Workshop increased the licensing fee to a level FFG would not, or could not meet. Which is a common reason IP based games end abruptly.

Do you have any evidence to backup either your or Snowman's claims?

Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1119327Do you have any evidence to backup either your or Snowman's claims?

Talked with staff on it and I believe they noted it over on either BGG or their own site. But they did mention the license fee was the factor. There had been problems before with the restrictions that GW placed on FFG products so a license hike may have been the final straw and/or the hike was just prohibitive.

Quote from: jux;1119326So we have situation where pre-order campaigns are getting lot of money, but delivering very little quality. And then there is FFG that is producing quality + support, but is struggling with because Kickstarter marketing is more shiny/superior than what FFG does nowadays. So, FFG is in this situation because they have made mistakes. They should design games better and market them better. But it's sad when FFG simply dies out because of this.

I am worried about this trend too. It appears that many companies are going the "get all of our sales done once" route of kickstarter and then just ignoring the game after it comes out. I mean, they made their numbers, so why keep going?

Quote from: joewolz;1119336I am worried about this trend too. It appears that many companies are going the "get all of our sales done once" route of kickstarter and then just ignoring the game after it comes out. I mean, they made their numbers, so why keep going?

Add to that the number of companies that are putting out increasingly piss poor product (Shadowrun 6, heck anything from Catalyst) or just collecting money and then putting stuff out years later claiming they're a small shop and don't have time to work on it full time (Kenzer Co for example).

Quote from: joewolz;1119336I am worried about this trend too. It appears that many companies are going the "get all of our sales done once" route of kickstarter and then just ignoring the game after it comes out. I mean, they made their numbers, so why keep going?

Torg: Eternity by Ulisses Spiel NA has taken the route of a series of kickstarters, each for 4 theme-linked products about one of their cosms. The core and two cosm sets are in print, another should be out in pdf soon, and a fourth is in playtest with backers right now, so this seems to be working for them.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1119348Torg: Eternity by Ulisses Spiel NA has taken the route of a series of kickstarters, each for 4 theme-linked products about one of their cosms. The core and two cosm sets are in print, another should be out in pdf soon, and a fourth is in playtest with backers right now, so this seems to be working for them.

At the same time the Dark Eye got it's releases (pretty much all done via kickstarter) delayed several times due to lack of funds for translators (all the books exist in German they just need to cover translation and printing costs for these) and the Fading Suns KS has been delayed time and time again for the last 2 years. They also botched the release of Wrath & Glory (which was also a Kickstarter).

So I wouldn't say it's the best model for them overall.

Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1119351At the same time the Dark Eye got it's releases (pretty much all done via kickstarter) delayed several times due to lack of funds for translators (all the books exist in German they just need to cover translation and printing costs for these) and the Fading Suns KS has been delayed time and time again for the last 2 years. They also botched the release of Wrath & Glory (which was also a Kickstarter).

So I wouldn't say it's the best model for them overall.

That's interesting. Goes to show which of their lines I'm interested in. I own two Dark Eye books and found the mechanics to be a bit arcane for my group's learning curve even if I did love the simulationist feel of the skillset. Wrath & Glory was a turd and I say this loving the WH40K universe; I got the PDF and then swore off the product in disgust. I hoped that C7 getting W&G might see a reboot, but last I heard, it's just going to be more of the same turd under a different publisher.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1119348Torg: Eternity by Ulisses Spiel NA has taken the route of a series of kickstarters, each for 4 theme-linked products about one of their cosms. The core and two cosm sets are in print, another should be out in pdf soon, and a fourth is in playtest with backers right now, so this seems to be working for them.

You can also take a look at Monte Cook Games. They keep pumping out massively large kickstarters to support Cypher/Numenera. Peginc(Savage Worlds) has also been leveraging the platform fairly well. Though for that them I guess you mostly see core books for Savage Worlds and it probably wouldn't work as well for supplement for one of those books(a Deadlands/Rippers side book).

The Red Dragon Inn games do well as well.

Quote from: Dracones;1119359Peginc(Savage Worlds) has also been leveraging the platform fairly well. Though for that them I guess you mostly see core books for Savage Worlds and it probably wouldn't work as well for supplement for one of those books(a Deadlands/Rippers side book).

I'm pretty sure PEGINC is going to do a full Deadlands relaunch, not sure about Rippers. PRe-SWADE, they have done full KS's for mostly supplementary stuff within their line launches as stretch-goals. But they're doing KS's for Savage Rifts ongoing... which is all supplementary material. They're doing it right from my angle as a consumer... and I've rewarded them well.

Quote from: tenbones;1119367I'm pretty sure PEGINC is going to do a full Deadlands relaunch, not sure about Rippers. PRe-SWADE, they have done full KS's for mostly supplementary stuff within their line launches as stretch-goals. But they're doing KS's for Savage Rifts ongoing... which is all supplementary material. They're doing it right from my angle as a consumer... and I've rewarded them well.

The "new" version of Savage Rifts is one of the only Kickstarters that I've backed hard enough for physical copies; for most I just stick with PDFs, but the first release of Savage Rifts was good enough to convince me (and since I'd "only" gone for PDFs that time, I didn't feel like I was paying twice for the same thing).

Quote from: HappyDaze;1119370The "new" version of Savage Rifts is one of the only Kickstarters that I've backed hard enough for physical copies; for most I just stick with PDFs, but the first release of Savage Rifts was good enough to convince me (and since I'd "only" gone for PDFs that time, I didn't feel like I was paying twice for the same thing).

I hear you. I've been extremely satisfied with all their product over the last couple of years. So I try to give my full support to the stuff I'm willing to consume. Hardbacks for me. Though I'll prolly pass on future box-sets... those suckers are MASSIVE and I don't really need more chotchkies (though the poker chips are LEGIT!!!)

I actually work as a freelance writer for a company that makes PF supplements (and are branching out to 5e). And they use Kickstarter and patreon allot. So I can't complain about kickstarter on a fundemental level.

However I also backed Mighty No 9. So I get the issues as well.

Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1119327Do you have any evidence to backup either your or Snowman's claims?

Why do you think I said rumors?  Obviously I have no evidence and I heard of this myself from other people.  So I stated as such as a rumor.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1119353Wrath & Glory was a turd and I say this loving the WH40K universe; I got the PDF and then swore off the product in disgust. I hoped that C7 getting W&G might see a reboot, but last I heard, it's just going to be more of the same turd under a different publisher.

My God we need to make a separate topic about how much of a shitty product Wrath and Glory is.  What a fucking failure that game was.  Fuck that is perhaps why I am making GRIM after I make Weird because at least my core system is actually playable.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1119382My God we need to make a separate topic about how much of a shitty product Wrath and Glory is.  What a fucking failure that game was.  Fuck that is perhaps why I am making GRIM after I make Weird because at least my core system is actually playable.

I already had one last spring/early summer. I'll dig it up tomorrow. For now, off to crazyland (no, literally... overnight running a mental facility, but it's no Arkham).

Same turd but they are going through and trying to fix all the mechanical issues in said turd.

And considering what they dropped at our feet for WFRP 4th ed I don't see it being all that much better off (prettier maybe).

I haven't really gotten into FFG's rpg productions since they made stuff for 3.x D&D. I have recently gotten hip to Twilight Imperium though, and would love to purchase a reprint of 4th edition. The game is currently sold out everywhere, or listed at ridiculous collector's prices. I'm hoping the layoffs don't delay them doing the reprint.

I was at a game developer meetup Wednesday and we were discussing how worldwide 1500 new games come out each year. That's 4 new games per day. It's extremely hard for a publisher to get something above the fray to gather notice in this environment, and if they don't, their sales are too low for anything other than a hobbyist's operation.    

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe we've seen a market uptick in non-D&D RPG sales since 5e. AKA, I don't believe we've seen any proof that all these new D&D 5e players are exploring other RPGs out there. Or have I missed something?

AKA, if the market for non-D&D RPGs is the same as pre-5e, then having RPG teams on salaries isn't realistic.

Quote from: jux;1119326All the gaming budget of all the gamers is a constant. And in a market where there is one block buster Kickstarter campain every month. Projects that take 3+mil from that common budget. Where minimum pledge is close to 100 and all-in is close to 300 - 400. People are just over-spent and overwhelmed of these Kickstarter projects. And there are so few actual success stories from gamers perspective, where a game has a life after several years of it's release.

Jux brings up an excellent point. There's only X dollars in the communal pot, and the communal pot for RPGs is much smaller than the boardgame pot. It's even smaller when you consider that many RPG gamers also play non-RPG games so their personal pot of money is being drained via Kickstarter.

I gotta admit that I've spend FAR more on KS boardgames than KS RPG stuff. Probably x5 more, even though by the numbers, I've bought more RPG stuff. AKA, I'll buy various RPG PDFs for a few bucks here and there, then drop a hundred on a big boardgame.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1119381Why do you think I said rumors?  Obviously I have no evidence and I heard of this myself from other people.  So I stated as such as a rumor.

Because his axe to grind theory is more valid than what FFG stated happened because he has an axe to grind against FFG.

That said. GWs licensing hike and/or termination seems to have come as a surprise to FFG as there were a couple of games allready in production that would see release and then promptly be ended when the contract expired.

Someone else suggested GW may have tried to demand FFG end their Star Wars contract and line. But I dont think even GW is that stupid. Then again. They are that stupid so all bets are off.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1119382My God we need to make a separate topic about how much of a shitty product Wrath and Glory is.  What a fucking failure that game was.  Fuck that is perhaps why I am making GRIM after I make Weird because at least my core system is actually playable.

I looked up the thread, but it wasn't mine and it wandered off topic very quickly. I did grab this post that I made there:
I wanted to love this game, but I cannot. Just for a start, consider that a Tier 3 Adeptus Astartes Tactical Space Marine will have Strength, Agility, and Toughness scores of 5-7. That's on this scale:

Relative Human
Attribute Values
Value Relative Human Ability
9+ Superhuman: Only alien species or humans enhanced by
special powers, Adeptus Astartes gene-seed, or unusual
items are capable of such extremes.
8 Exceptional: The best most humans can be.
6–7 Outstanding: Very adept or smart, in top physical shape,
very popular.
4–5 High Average: Athletic, intelligent, or amiable.
3 Average: Normal physical shape, intelligence, or
likeability.
2 or less Poor: Unhealthy and weak, uncoordinated and stiff,
weak-minded, unlikable.

That means that the Space Marines are way underpowered. I understand the need for balance, but 7' tall genetically and surgically modified super-soldiers that can't even qualify as "Exceptional: The best most humans can be." (note, that this is speaking of unmodified humans) is just too sad.

The game also has a problem with suggested default arrays of attributes and skills that too expensive for many characters to even afford. I would rather the default arrays be affordable and that people could purchase up from there rather than have to prune down to an affordable level.

Oh, and ascension packages suck, particularly for the costs attached.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1119453I wanted to love this game, but I cannot. Just for a start, consider that a Tier 3 Adeptus Astartes Tactical Space Marine will have Strength, Agility, and Toughness scores of 5-7. That's on this scale:

Attribute Values
Value Relative Human Ability
9+ Superhuman: Only alien species or humans enhanced by special powers, Adeptus Astartes gene-seed, or unusual items are capable of such extremes.

Based on the chart you provided it says that Adeptus Astartes should be around a 9. That alone says they screwed up somewhere when the average astartes from the chart is that far above when you get if you play one.

GW probably got nervous at seeing the success of X-Wing and either knew or assumed a tabletop wargame using the IP wouldn't be far behind. Remember this is the company who did a blanket name change of all 'standard' fantasy terms to project brand awareness and protect copyright (Aelves, Duradin, Ogors, etc). The final Black Crusade sourcebook took a very long time to even be announced (I think it had been almost two years since Tome of Excess had come out and everybody had written the line off as dead) and was suspiciously beefy with both Nurgle and Undivided content that could've easily been - and had probably been planned as - its own release. Enemies Beyond had a very uncharacteristically quick turnaround for a FFG splat as well. This tells me they had forewarning, but that FFG hadn't planned on losing it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1119382My God we need to make a separate topic about how much of a shitty product Wrath and Glory is.  What a fucking failure that game was.  Fuck that is perhaps why I am making GRIM after I make Weird because at least my core system is actually playable.

I don't know how I feel about WANG's failure. I do feel pretty smug that I privately predicted exactly how it ended up. There was always a very vocal minority when it came to the FFG 40k books - usually from people who hadn't played RPGs or exclusively played 5E - who always bitched and moaned the corebooks didn't support Super Friends parties as standard, with a Space Marine, an Ork, a Eldar Farseer, a Tau Battlesuit and Imperial Guardsman all in the same group at once. WANG obviously aimed for that audience along with 'narrative game' meme that was also trying to... not... be a narrative game (and I say this as somebody who likes story-driven systems). Low and behold it ended up having the depth of a puddle and none of the promised sourcebooks to expand on the "there's basically 1% of the depth any of the FFG corebooks had". It doesn't help that GW themselves helped advertise it, so the ever obnoxious nUGW Defence Forces couldn't suck it off enough.

It likely didn't help that the hardbacks were eye-wateringly expensive to pre-order. If I remember right you could only grab a $100 version unless you waited for a standard retail release, which was around $70 anyway.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1119496I don't know how I feel about WANG's failure. I do feel pretty smug that I privately predicted exactly how it ended up. There was always a very vocal minority when it came to the FFG 40k books - usually from people who hadn't played RPGs or exclusively played 5E - who always bitched and moaned the corebooks didn't support Super Friends parties as standard, with a Space Marine, an Ork, a Eldar Farseer, a Tau Battlesuit and Imperial Guardsman all in the same group at once. WANG obviously aimed for that audience along with 'narrative game' meme that was also trying to... not... be a narrative game (and I say this as somebody who likes story-driven systems). Low and behold it ended up having the depth of a puddle and none of the promised sourcebooks to expand on the "there's basically 1% of the depth any of the FFG corebooks had". It doesn't help that GW themselves helped advertise it, so the ever obnoxious nUGW Defence Forces couldn't suck it off enough.

Which how is that even possible setting wise?  I can see Imperial forces working together because at the end of the day they all serve the Emperor.  That said I still think it would be a rough ride as the Imperial forces had in the past fought against each other and frankly don't even trust each other at all.  Space marines had fought and killed off battle nuns in the past.  Hell I think Salamanders got pissed off with the nuns for purging a bunch of civilians and decided to do their own form of purging.  Let me also bring up the time the Space Wolves got pissed off with the inquisition on many occasions.  Also how is a poorly equipped imperial guardsmen suppose to keep up with space marine, pull out the same level of influence of a inquisitor, or even attain the mass wealth of a Rogue Trader.  By the way why would anyone in the group even trust the Inquisitor in the party?  At least if they dangle shiny coins the Rogue Trader can be loyal, but that Inquisitor guy?  Who fucking knows what fuck up shit he is into and more importantly who side he is on.  Total fucking creep right there.

Now toss in aliens, or even a chaos worshiping fiend...  Well shit is about to get quite ugly.  At least the chaos marine knows that things are only getting worst and thus mentally prepared for it.  That poor tau fire caste warrior don't know what is coming for him...  Which wait even the fire caste warrior doesn't even trust the Kroot mercenary.  Fuck...

Quote from: Snowman0147;1119508Which how is that even possible setting wise?  I can see Imperial forces working together because at the end of the day they all serve the Emperor.  That said I still think it would be a rough ride as the Imperial forces had in the past fought against each other and frankly don't even trust each other at all.  Space marines had fought and killed off battle nuns in the past.  Hell I think Salamanders got pissed off with the nuns for purging a bunch of civilians and decided to do their own form of purging.  Let me also bring up the time the Space Wolves got pissed off with the inquisition on many occasions.  Also how is a poorly equipped imperial guardsmen suppose to keep up with space marine, pull out the same level of influence of a inquisitor, or even attain the mass wealth of a Rogue Trader.  By the way why would anyone in the group even trust the Inquisitor in the party?  At least if they dangle shiny coins the Rogue Trader can be loyal, but that Inquisitor guy?  Who fucking knows what fuck up shit he is into and more importantly who side he is on.  Total fucking creep right there.

Now toss in aliens, or even a chaos worshiping fiend...  Well shit is about to get quite ugly.  At least the chaos marine knows that things are only getting worst and thus mentally prepared for it.  That poor tau fire caste warrior don't know what is coming for him...  Which wait even the fire caste warrior doesn't even trust the Kroot mercenary.  Fuck...

Yeah, well, my girlfriend isn't interested in any of the human stuff and wants to play an Eldar. Maybe you could like, stop gatekeeping okay? It costs nothing to not be an asshole.

In all seriousness, I loved that each of FFG's core rulebooks felt like different RPGs that just shared a similar ruleset and setting. A Dark Heresy game was completely different to a Black Crusade or Deathwatch campaign but with the mechanics to back it up in almost every aspect. As soon as WANG was announced to be doing away with this and going with the kitchen sink, it was always going to be doomed just because there's so many different power levels in the setting that you either end up with a painfully bland book that might as well have been a homebrew for another (better) system or take FFG's approach. Unlike their Star Wars RPGs I actually felt like there was enough content, between the rules, lore, meta-setting and art to justify each one being an individual product.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119265Why the joy at their failure? Is this one of those "They played games the wrong way!" things?

Their games were crap.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1119992Their games were crap.

Because?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119997Because?

The market said so.  Seriously if they were doing good they would not be in the position they are in right now and forced to lay off so many people.  You can get all emotional you want for all those cards, fancy dice, and "Oh look it isn't D&D!" all you want.  Your right after all, but let us be honest here for a second.  How much did all that junk cost to make when a normal set of dice and some simple rules are just as effective?  How much of a money waste was that?  Not enough people enjoyed it to keep it afloat and if Fantasy Flight Games keep it up the business would die.  So yes they are bad games because they got people laid off.

Im not a fan if their games. I just like learning different opinions.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1119998The market said so.  Seriously if they were doing good they would not be in the position they are in right now and forced to lay off so many people.  You can get all emotional you want for all those cards, fancy dice, and "Oh look it isn't D&D!" all you want.  Your right after all, but let us be honest here for a second.  How much did all that junk cost to make when a normal set of dice and some simple rules are just as effective?  How much of a money waste was that?  Not enough people enjoyed it to keep it afloat and if Fantasy Flight Games keep it up the business would die.  So yes they are bad games because they got people laid off.

If that's how we measure what's a "bad game," then how many RPGs can actually support > 1 or 2 full-time staff (without those staff having to take day jobs)?

If the business requires only one guy and a few freelancers to be successful, then those are the requirements.  I don't make the rules here.  Just a realistic observation at a company that wants you spend money on their rpgs like how one spends money on video game DLCs/microtransations.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1119998The market said so.  

By this definition, Pundit's RPG stuff he's written must REALLY suck.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1119992Their games were crap.

Nah, just yours.

Quote from: Mistwell;1120004By this definition, Pundit's RPG stuff he's written must REALLY suck.

Since when Pundit had to lay people off?

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120006Since when Pundit had to lay people off?

Unless I'm mistaken Pundit is the only empkoyee of his company. So what is he going to do if business is bad fire himself. So not exactly a fair comparison.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120006Since when Pundit had to lay people off?

Not what I said.

The claim was made by Snowman that products can be measured on a scale of not sucky to sucky based on how much they sell (markets determine if something sucks or does not). I said based on that standard, Pundit's books must suck. None of that has anything to do with layoffs.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119997Because?

I can't speak to the 40K games, the their Star Wars game had a debilitating flaw built into it's die mechanic. Even though the die rolls could generate results in two axis (succeed/fail, and advantage/threat), the fact that both values scale with the number of dice roll and adding dice is the only way to increase difficulty, meant that two of those results (succeed with advantage / fail with threat) were significantly more common than the others. The result of this fact is that if a player isn't optimized for a particular skill, that character was far more likely to fail with added threat than do anything positive for the party. In other words, if you weren't optimized for combat, shooting at a bad guy would hurt the party more than help it. You ended up with a Star Wars game that actively discouraged players from taking risks. Quite the opposite from what someone would expected.

One example I posted to their forums years ago was that if 7 Y-Wings attacked a Star Destroyer, the Star Destroyer would only kill 6 of those Y-Wings before the firing of the turbolasers had generated enough Threat to completely cripple the Star Destroyer. All without a single Y-Wing taking a shot. (as a response they completely changed combat vs large ships in the Rebellion game). When I brought this up, I was giving the GM Advice that I simply ignore any die results that didn't fit the narrative.

The designers stated that they never did any numerical analysis of their dice, they just make sure they "felt right". Which was obvious the first time someone actually did it.


And the blue die is wrong.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1120025... In other words, if you weren't optimized for combat, shooting at a bad guy would hurt the party more than help it. You ended up with a Star Wars game that actively discouraged players from taking risks. Quite the opposite from what someone would expected.

One example I posted to their forums years ago was that if 7 Y-Wings attacked a Star Destroyer, the Star Destroyer would only kill 6 of those Y-Wings before the firing of the turbolasers had generated enough Threat to completely cripple the Star Destroyer. All without a single Y-Wing taking a shot. (as a response they completely changed combat vs large ships in the Rebellion game). When I brought this up, I was giving the GM Advice that I simply ignore any die results that didn't fit the narrative.

The designers stated that they never did any numerical analysis of their dice, they just make sure they "felt right".

These kinds of stories clearly demonstrating the lack of playtesting make me cringe. Was very glad not to have ever purchased any FFG Star Wars. One other thing, The ship minis were very visually attractive, but the scale was off some (They were too large for tabletop play), and they were ridiculously expensive to boot. I'm sure the license fees added to the cost, however paying $20 for a single mini was just a no-go for me. For $20 of basswood and a bit of acrylic paint, I could afford to buy an entire fleet.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1119998The market said so.  Seriously if they were doing good they would not be in the position they are in right now and forced to lay off so many people.  You can get all emotional you want for all those cards, fancy dice, and "Oh look it isn't D&D!" all you want.  Your right after all, but let us be honest here for a second.  How much did all that junk cost to make when a normal set of dice and some simple rules are just as effective?  How much of a money waste was that?  Not enough people enjoyed it to keep it afloat and if Fantasy Flight Games keep it up the business would die.  So yes they are bad games because they got people laid off.

Companies downsize all the time if they believe they can get away with doing more work with less people, for no other reason than pure greed, even if they're making profits. All signs in this point to Asmodee.

The Star Wars RPG has been pumping out content for years and are a meal ticket among IPs regardless of ones opinion of how good it is.

It's just very strange to have people tout the "IT SOLD POOR, SO IT MUST SUCK!" when 5E is widely touted as The Devil and outsells every RPG combined.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1120025I can't speak to the 40K games, the their Star Wars game had a debilitating flaw built into it's die mechanic. Even though the die rolls could generate results in two axis (succeed/fail, and advantage/threat), the fact that both values scale with the number of dice roll and adding dice is the only way to increase difficulty, meant that two of those results (succeed with advantage / fail with threat) were significantly more common than the others. The result of this fact is that if a player isn't optimized for a particular skill, that character was far more likely to fail with added threat than do anything positive for the party. In other words, if you weren't optimized for combat, shooting at a bad guy would hurt the party more than help it. You ended up with a Star Wars game that actively discouraged players from taking risks. Quite the opposite from what someone would expected.

One example I posted to their forums years ago was that if 7 Y-Wings attacked a Star Destroyer, the Star Destroyer would only kill 6 of those Y-Wings before the firing of the turbolasers had generated enough Threat to completely cripple the Star Destroyer. All without a single Y-Wing taking a shot. (as a response they completely changed combat vs large ships in the Rebellion game). When I brought this up, I was giving the GM Advice that I simply ignore any die results that didn't fit the narrative.

The designers stated that they never did any numerical analysis of their dice, they just make sure they "felt right". Which was obvious the first time someone actually did it.


And the blue die is wrong.

Now this is what I wanted to hear. Also what about the blue dice?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1120032Now this is what I wanted to hear. Also what about the blue dice?

Theres an older thread or three here where we dissected various quirks of the SW RPG. If he is talking about the die I think he is then I believe it had to do with how it interacted with the system. FFGs SW system is a borderline oracle system and that in and of itself can be a boon or a bane depending on the players. The other problem is that some players just can not get the symbols to begin with so theres a potential barrier right there.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1120026These kinds of stories clearly demonstrating the lack of playtesting make me cringe.

Oh, they had playtesters (I was one of them) but they did tend to ignore any feedback that didn't fit with their narrative. It was really frustrating when bad spots in the rules would be pointed out and they would just say "that part is already set, what about X?" over and over. Once the foundation had been poorly laid they were OK with just piling more on.

And as for the designers going with what "felt right," when they did run/play their own game, they heavily houseruled it until it barely followed the mechanics they had printed, and I think some of their own houserules were stuck in their head when they evaluated playtest reports. I recall three of four playtest groups giving negative feedback on how a rule worked in a Force and Destiny product, and the developer said "no, that's not how it's supposed to work; we'll clean up the wording" but the printed product contained the exact same wording and when an Order66 podcast featured a question on it they said "decide for yourselves how it works." So, while there was playtest, it was as loose and narrative as the system; what didn't fit the writers' and developers' whims was simply discounted.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1120025I can't speak to the 40K games, the their Star Wars game had a debilitating flaw built into it's die mechanic. Even though the die rolls could generate results in two axis (succeed/fail, and advantage/threat), the fact that both values scale with the number of dice roll and adding dice is the only way to increase difficulty, meant that two of those results (succeed with advantage / fail with threat) were significantly more common than the others. The result of this fact is that if a player isn't optimized for a particular skill, that character was far more likely to fail with added threat than do anything positive for the party. In other words, if you weren't optimized for combat, shooting at a bad guy would hurt the party more than help it. You ended up with a Star Wars game that actively discouraged players from taking risks. Quite the opposite from what someone would expected.

One example I posted to their forums years ago was that if 7 Y-Wings attacked a Star Destroyer, the Star Destroyer would only kill 6 of those Y-Wings before the firing of the turbolasers had generated enough Threat to completely cripple the Star Destroyer. All without a single Y-Wing taking a shot. (as a response they completely changed combat vs large ships in the Rebellion game). When I brought this up, I was giving the GM Advice that I simply ignore any die results that didn't fit the narrative.

The designers stated that they never did any numerical analysis of their dice, they just make sure they "felt right". Which was obvious the first time someone actually did it.


And the blue die is wrong.

So much about this is so absolutely wrong...

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1120025I can't speak to the 40K games, the their Star Wars game had a debilitating flaw built into it's die mechanic. Even though the die rolls could generate results in two axis (succeed/fail, and advantage/threat), the fact that both values scale with the number of dice roll and adding dice is the only way to increase difficulty, meant that two of those results (succeed with advantage / fail with threat) were significantly more common than the others. The result of this fact is that if a player isn't optimized for a particular skill, that character was far more likely to fail with added threat than do anything positive for the party. In other words, if you weren't optimized for combat, shooting at a bad guy would hurt the party more than help it. You ended up with a Star Wars game that actively discouraged players from taking risks. Quite the opposite from what someone would expected.

One example I posted to their forums years ago was that if 7 Y-Wings attacked a Star Destroyer, the Star Destroyer would only kill 6 of those Y-Wings before the firing of the turbolasers had generated enough Threat to completely cripple the Star Destroyer. All without a single Y-Wing taking a shot. (as a response they completely changed combat vs large ships in the Rebellion game). When I brought this up, I was giving the GM Advice that I simply ignore any die results that didn't fit the narrative.

The designers stated that they never did any numerical analysis of their dice, they just make sure they "felt right". Which was obvious the first time someone actually did it.


And the blue die is wrong.

Even if you had no ranks in a combat skill, you can still do combat shit. Upgrade with a FP, aim, etc. And you are more likely to get successes and advantage than the opposite. And I say this as someone who has played since the beta.

You're going to have to work me through this SD vs Y-Wing thing. There's to many variables you are leaving out.

Quote from: Mistwell;1120011Not what I said.

The claim was made by Snowman that products can be measured on a scale of not sucky to sucky based on how much they sell (markets determine if something sucks or does not). I said based on that standard, Pundit's books must suck. None of that has anything to do with layoffs.

Then your not getting what I am saying.  Pundit is actually doing well for himself while FFG is dying out due to their own arrogance.  Guess it isn't hard to create a pdf and pod versions of your RPG.  So why is FGG failing and had to lay off so many people?  Could it just be the games suck and cannot support the bloat that FFG made for itself?

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1120045And you are more likely to get successes and advantage than the opposite. And I say this as someone who has played since the beta.

The most common outcomes are success with threat or failure with advantage because of the way the symbols cancel. This was the designers' intent as it adds "drama" to have complications when you'e doing well and compensations when you're doing poorly. Not everyone will agree.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1120038Oh, they had playtesters (I was one of them) but they did tend to ignore any feedback that didn't fit with their narrative. It was really frustrating when bad spots in the rules would be pointed out and they would just say "that part is already set, what about X?" over and over. Once the foundation had been poorly laid they were OK with just piling more on.

Oh yes I can testify to that claim in Dark Heresy 2.0 testing.  The first Dark Heresy second edition beta was a completely different beast then the ones that got release to the general public.  It was divisive and there was factions made in the forum.  The side I joined was the one that wanted Dark Heresy with the upgrades, more fine tuning, and more tweaks to make the system better.  The other one wanted this horrible abomination of the game which a shit ton of the SJWs sided with this.  FFG wanted the abomination system and continued on to ignore my faction even though they pointed out all the flaws in the game.  Then came Gen Con and once FFG came back it was 180.  Suddenly my group got what it wanted for the most part.

Quote from: sureshot;1120010Unless I'm mistaken Pundit is the only empkoyee of his company. So what is he going to do if business is bad fire himself. So not exactly a fair comparison.

True, but I don't see the people who got laid off are the ones that make the decisions.  How is that fair?

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120053Then your not getting what I am saying.  Pundit is actually doing well for himself while FFG is dying out due to their own arrogance.  Guess it isn't hard to create a pdf and pod versions of your RPG.  So why is FGG failing and had to lay off so many people?  Could it just be the games suck and cannot support the bloat that FFG made for itself?

Is FFG dying out? Minis and board games and card games seem to be doing fine.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1120058Is FFG dying out? Minis and board games and card games seem to be doing fine.

In terms of tabletop RPGs it is.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120065In terms of tabletop RPGs it is.

While I never had any love for their stuff, and it never caught my desire, your pleasure in seeing them fall seems personal. As for tabletop RPGs most fail eventually. They had a solid release run and had some presence on some bookstores. Thats more then 99.9999999999% of all tabletop RPGs.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120065In terms of tabletop RPGs it is.

So they're cutting out their appendix or tonsils, hardly anything meaningful to the company as a whole.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1120066While I never had any love for their stuff, and it never caught my desire, your pleasure in seeing them fall seems personal. As for tabletop RPGs most fail eventually. They had a solid release run and had some presence on some bookstores. Thats more then 99.9999999999% of all tabletop RPGs.

I don't like it when I see the people in the bottom get trashed which I stated that multiple times.  That said I don't feel sorry for the people on top who made those horrible decisions that got those people laid off.  So if your trying to shame me, then you had failed completely.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1120068So they're cutting out their appendix or tonsils, hardly anything meaningful to the company as a whole.

True, but if they made good rpgs that people wanted to buy then there wouldn't be lay offs.  Think on that.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120070True, but if they made good rpgs that people wanted to buy then there wouldn't be lay offs.  Think on that.

This is petty and childish reasoning.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1120071This is petty and childish reasoning.

Petty my ass.  I am being real and honest about the whole thing.  Your acting like I am the one that is laying off the workers when I am not and AGAIN I am not cheering on the people being laid off.  I honestly feel bad for them, but getting bitchy at me because I say the truth only proves how petty you really are.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120073Petty my ass.  I am being real and honest about the whole thing.  Your acting like I am the one that is laying off the workers when I am not and AGAIN I am not cheering on the people being laid off.  I honestly feel bad for them, but getting bitchy at me because I say the truth only proves how petty you really are.

They could have underestimated the cost of the license plus the high-value production costs - thus putting themselves outside the realities of the current RPG market. This doesn't necessarily mean that their games were bad.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120053Then your not getting what I am saying.  Pundit is actually doing well for himself while FFG is dying out due to their own arrogance.  Guess it isn't hard to create a pdf and pod versions of your RPG.  So why is FGG failing and had to lay off so many people?  Could it just be the games suck and cannot support the bloat that FFG made for itself?

I wouldnt say FFG is dying off. Just that, like SJG, they are cutting off anything that doesnt make a profit. But unlike FFG they dont, far as I know, run on the tight margins of error SJG does.

I think part of the problem for FFG was that the Star Wars franchise has been doing its best to crash and burn, rather than attract fans. And as the upswing of Force Awakens turned into a downward death spiral thereafter. The RPGs are lacking the full interest of the fans. Same with the toys. The Last Jedi toys sat on shelves forever.

Add to that an RPG that has gimmick dice and you have a rescipe for potential poor sales eventually if the movies flounder enough or the company owning the IP repulses enough fans. How things have gone for the new series cant have helped sales unfortunately.

As for the game itself. If you can grock the system then its not bad. But it has flaws that can drag it down. YMMV as ever.

And of course it could be as simple as whomever owns FFG just decided to jettison the RPG branch and focus on the board games and the card games.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120055The other one wanted this horrible abomination of the game which a shit ton of the SJWs sided with this.

What were they wanting?

Quote from: Reckall;1120074They could have underestimated the cost of the license plus the high-value production costs - thus putting themselves outside the realities of the current RPG market. This doesn't necessarily mean that their games were bad.

No, but it does indicate that there is a significant buy-in for the hobbyist who wants to play them which is a barrier to entry. Their miniatures games are evidence of this, very very pricey miniatures with minimal rules. Another barrier to entry is the counter-intuitive narrative style dice mechanic requiring specialized dice (or for those who use a handout that translates normal numbers to squiggles, specialized knowledge).

On the RPG side, the splatbook treadmill has taken on a new form. You can buy decks of character cards to expand on individual character types, giving them advantages at a monetary cost to the Player. Which also complicates the game with special circumstantial rules.

Oddly enough, when they did the WEG Anniversary Reprints, it may have been an admission of defeat. FFG recognizing that elegant rules from a more civilized age may be competitive with the newer material they were selling. Of course, as I have always said, gimmick dice and narrative rules are no match for a solid d6 SWRPG at your game table..... :D

It is neither a happy or a sad thing that massive layoffs are happening among the RPG staff of FFG. It is a business thing.

Quote from: Omega;1120077What were they wanting?

Too many to fucking list.  Let me just say it was a clucky fucking mess that would had result in battles taking hours to get done simply because you gotta do calculations.  First off you gotta figure out rate of fire because each weapon has a rate of fire that determined by your agility modifier.  That alone was good hour long debate with my group in just trying to figure that rate of fire out.  Then you do the normal attack vs defense rolls as normal.  if you do damage you gotta calculate the damage vs toughness to see if does wounds, if it does wounds you gotta figure how much, if you can do multi attacks you gotta repeat these previous steps, and only then is it the other player's turn.  My group when we did combat it took so long I got fed up blessed everyone with vengeance 9 and the person with vengeance now has 8.  The fact is if your not critting your going to waste hours on a single minions vs pcs fight that should had lasted maybe a half hour in another system.  It was not serious fighting and if I had brought in any thing more powerful than a minion it could had easily been two nights for one combat.  it was just horrible.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120070True, but if they made good rpgs that people wanted to buy then there wouldn't be lay offs.  Think on that.

The games (specifically the SW game, not sure about the others) did well enough by RPG standards. Unfortunately, RPGs can't compete with board games, mini games, and card games. If WotC used the same approach, Magic would live and D&D would die. Even if many players like D&D want to play it, it's not going to perform at the levels that Asmodee wants.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1120026These kinds of stories clearly demonstrating the lack of playtesting make me cringe.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1120038Oh, they had playtesters (I was one of them) but they did tend to ignore any feedback that didn't fit with their narrative. It was really frustrating when bad spots in the rules would be pointed out and they would just say "that part is already set, what about X?" over and over.

I have a similar story I think I've shared around here from the devs for the Arcanis RPG (i.e. the travesty of game design they tried to create to support their campaign between their 3.5e and 5e versions).

The short version is their "math" guy just presumed that 2d10 and 1d20 were functionally the same in terms of probability distribution and so set their task target numbers using 3e D&D as a guide (further complicating things they replaced static ability score modifiers with an exploding die ranging from d4 to d12).

On their forums I posted a detailed series of charts of the probabilities for success for all the attribute dice (from 2d10+1d4 to 2d10+1d12) including out to three possible explosions of the attribute die.

In the thread the "math" guy said "These look very close to our numbers."

Half an hour later I got an email (not a PM, but to my actual email) from the "math" guy asking if I could email him all my spreadsheets because not only hadn't they actually run the numbers... they didn't even know HOW to run the numbers.

That was why, when I resolved to do write my own game system, I decided to put a lot of focus into the math not just "feeling right", but ensuring it actually did what it was supposed to do.

It's also why I've had years of playtesting now with whole sections of content/rules I started with being ripped out and replaced because how it looked in my head did not translate to how people used it in play. The entire class section was rebuilt from the ground up (and several classes within that separately undergoing major revisions) and whole player species removed and or massively rewritten, attack/damage/skill progression was replaced (going from quadratic to linear progression in the process), situational modifiers reworked from the ground up, the conditions/effects system completely rebuilt.

The result is that it's taken me longer to get the project done than I intended, but by this point I'm certain the mechanics are rock solid (current playtests seem to be limited to reporting relatively minor and specific bugs like the pyromancy talent having a trigger that doesn't necessarily require a hit roll, but an effect that does require a hit roll).

TL;DR the lack of actual playtesting in the industry is no joke, but is critically important to having a quality product if you're not just selling a setting and a few house rules for an existing setting (and even then, test your house rules).

Quote from: HappyDaze;1120087If WotC used the same approach, Magic would live and D&D would die.

  Wizards may use the same approach to some degree--it's probably why nothing but D&D has been attempted for nearly a decade in their RPG department, since nothing can sell well enough to justify taking resources from D&D. That's only theory, mind.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120073Petty my ass.

Perhaps that's the case. Maybe then I should stress the CHILDISH part. A item could sell poorly for so many reasons. And let me stress I'm not interested in this game.
But saying the sales of an item indicate how truly good it is, without any other nuance speaks to childish thought patterns.

Edit: Let me double stress. I hate narrativistic dice systems and I hate stupid specialty dice. I hated how they laid out their books and I found the whole venture very uncreative. But Imarguing the principle of the point and not them themselves.

Quote from: Chris24601;1120089not only hadn't they actually run the numbers... they didn't even know HOW to run the numbers.

Alleged math guy can't actually do math. What are the odds?

Quote from: Chris24601;1120089TL;DR the lack of actual playtesting in the industry is no joke, but is critically important to having a quality product if you're not just selling a setting and a few house rules for an existing setting (and even then, test your house rules).

I'm not certain which is worse, bad quality playtesting, or no playtesting at all. Either way, without it, too many things will come up in play that will break the game. D&D actually got a good round of playtesting, with multiple groups running games and tweaking the rules to suit them, until a working version that could be published evolved. Can't say that for a lot of the modern games being designed. With FFG bad quality playtesting was deliberate, which really hurt their game. I might have actually ran games using their rules if I wasn't getting negative feedback like this from players on the forums.

Even with negative feedback, I'll always take a look for myself at the rules, to determine if the designers knew what they were doing and if they make the game fun, and easy to play/run. If there are obvious faults in rulings which disrupt my ability to immerse myself in the game, then the game is a no-go for me.

FFG's Star Wars was precisely a no-go for using non-standard dice. This is the same problem with the Modiphus version of Fallout by the way. They are using custom dice and complex mechanics that are distracting from creating good story lines. For my Fallout 4 games, I'm using a d100 Basic Roleplaying version of the Fallout rules which has been circulating on the Internet for years, and modifying the Modiphus item cards and encounters to work with the BRP.

Quote from: Chris24601;1120089It's also why I've had years of playtesting now with whole sections of content/rules I started with being ripped out and replaced because how it looked in my head did not translate to how people used it in play. The entire class section was rebuilt from the ground up (and several classes within that separately undergoing major revisions) and whole player species removed and or massively rewritten, attack/damage/skill progression was replaced (going from quadratic to linear progression in the process), situational modifiers reworked from the ground up, the conditions/effects system completely rebuilt.

Oh do I know that feeling all too well my fellow sufferer.
aheh.
This is why in board gaming it is so ruthlessly stressed to playtest your design to death, raise its corpse, and playtest it to un-death.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1120087The games (specifically the SW game, not sure about the others) did well enough by RPG standards. Unfortunately, RPGs can't compete with board games, mini games, and card games. If WotC used the same approach, Magic would live and D&D would die. Even if many players like D&D want to play it, it's not going to perform at the levels that Asmodee wants.

Actually HASBRO did threaten to make the same approach after the mess of 4e and having to put WOTC on a tighter budget leash. 5e had to do well or that was the end of the RPG line.

Quote from: Brad;1120093Alleged math guy can't actually do math. What are the odds?

I see what you did there... :)

Quote from: Brad;1120093Alleged math guy can't actually do math. What are the odds?

You'd be surprised at the number of designers who
A: Do not know about the bell curve.
B: Know of the bell curve but cant grasp it.
C: Have a little or alot of trouble with probabilities and interactions at all.

This comes up A-LOT over on BGG. Theres a thread pretty much dedicated to answering probability questions. And once every few weeks theres another thread with someone wanting to know why dont you use cards instead of dice since drawing a card from a depleting deck is the same as rolling a dice?

As a playtester I bump into on occasion designers not taking into account the bell curve and how it skews things.

I've only seen a rare handful of designers willfully ignorant of, or outright ignoring these factors and every time so far its ended in them torching their nasient careers and they are never heard from again.

Quote from: Omega;1120102You'd be surprised at the number of designers who
A: Do not know about the bell curve.
B: Know of the bell curve but cant grasp it.
C: Have a little or alot of trouble with probabilities and interactions at all.

This comes up A-LOT over on BGG. Theres a thread pretty much dedicated to answering probability questions. And once every few weeks theres another thread with someone wanting to know why dont you use cards instead of dice since drawing a card from a depleting deck is the same as rolling a dice?

As a playtester I bump into on occasion designers not taking into account the bell curve and how it skews things.

Really, there are people who think that about decks of cards? I remember i once had a 24 entry chart but no d24 so someone suggested 2d12 and i explained why that was wrong, but thats the worst ive seen it (in the end we just flipped a con for +12 on heads...then we changed it to calling it while the coin was mid air cause it was more fun)

Quote from: Omega;1120102You'd be surprised at the number of designers who
A: Do not know about the bell curve.
B: Know of the bell curve but cant grasp it.
C: Have a little or alot of trouble with probabilities and interactions at all.

I suspect that one of the reasons d20 and percentile-based task resolution is so pervasive is that the probabilities SEEM easier to deal with.

Where a lot of those in categories B and C who THINK they're avoiding bell curve issues most often fall down is when they write rules that need multiple rolls to succeed (ex. 3e's climbing checks) and that effectively turns the resolution into a multi-die bell curve.

Many of these cases have even more weirdness because, again using 3e's climbing rules, one failure after two successes climbing a 40' wall is more punishing than one failure followed by two successes (i.e. you fall 30' in the first case vs. you take no damage and are now 30' up the wall).

Quote from: Chris24601;1120104I suspect that one of the reasons d20 and percentile-based task resolution is so pervasive is that the probabilities SEEM easier to deal with.

Where a lot of those in categories B and C who THINK they're avoiding bell curve issues most often fall down is when they write rules that need multiple rolls to succeed (ex. 3e's climbing checks) and that effectively turns the resolution into a multi-die bell curve.

Many of these cases have even more weirdness because, again using 3e's climbing rules, one failure after two successes climbing a 40' wall is more punishing than one failure followed by two successes (i.e. you fall 30' in the first case vs. you take no damage and are now 30' up the wall).

I'll add my pet peeve - exploding dice vs. a target number.

Ex. 1d6 exploding. Target number of 6 and target number of 7 are probabilistically equal, and I have yet to see a game designer take that into account.

Quote from: RandyB;1120107I'll add my pet peeve - exploding dice vs. a target number.

Ex. 1d6 exploding. Target number of 6 and target number of 7 are probabilistically equal, and I have yet to see a game designer take that into account.

Yes.  It's not as if this is all that complicated:  "Roll 1d6.  If get a 6, count as 5 but also roll again, adding to the total."

Unless you have something like these (https://www.pippd.com/products/pack-of-6-opaque-math-number-0-5-16mm-dice-white-with-black?variant=13609459646560&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&CATARGETID=120152200000016730&CADevice=c&gclid=Cj0KCQiAsbrxBRDpARIsAAnnz_O8jv5yM7qeKzYoM-kItrsMb5hngPJPxzzH7KEFt3X7inIMA8F8W_QaAsLeEALw_wcB)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4098[/ATTACH]

I think that availability is why many exploding dice mechanics use a d10 due the common numbering scheme of 0 to 9.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120053Then your not getting what I am saying.  Pundit is actually doing well for himself while FFG is dying out due to their own arrogance.  Guess it isn't hard to create a pdf and pod versions of your RPG.  So why is FGG failing and had to lay off so many people?  Could it just be the games suck and cannot support the bloat that FFG made for itself?

Again, if quantity of sales is a measure of the quality of the product, then objectively Pundit's products must suck more than FFG's because FFG's products sell far more than Pundit's products. The number of employees or health of the company overall is not part of the equation you set forth - you set for an equation of "Sales=Quality". Well then, either your standard sucks or Pundit's products suck. Pick one.

Here is one a GM was talking to today brought up as a possible reason for the layoffs.

Tenure.

One of their friends has been hired and fired by a few local companies repeatedly. Why? So they arent there long enough to gain any benefits. Games Workshop has that as a policy for their shop workers. Fire em before they work there too long.

I doubt that is FFGs reason though. But as noted. This is not the first time theyve dropped a bunch of workers. But this is though I think the first where the cancellation of a line was abrupt and apparently unforeseen by FFG.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120070True, but if they made good rpgs that people wanted to buy then there wouldn't be lay offs.  Think on that.

Each RPG product by FFG out right now sells more than the combined total of all RPG products Pundit has ever sold. So if this is the standard, think on what that means.

It's an inane standard you're stating. Sales /= Quality of product. High-quality products sometimes don't sell as well as low-quality products, for a variety of reasons. It's not as simplistic as you're making it out to seem.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1120108Yes.  It's not as if this is all that complicated:  "Roll 1d6.  If get a 6, count as 5 but also roll again, adding to the total."

Quote from: estar;1120109Unless you have something like these (https://www.pippd.com/products/pack-of-6-opaque-math-number-0-5-16mm-dice-white-with-black?variant=13609459646560&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&CATARGETID=120152200000016730&CADevice=c&gclid=Cj0KCQiAsbrxBRDpARIsAAnnz_O8jv5yM7qeKzYoM-kItrsMb5hngPJPxzzH7KEFt3X7inIMA8F8W_QaAsLeEALw_wcB)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4098[/ATTACH]

I think that availability is why many exploding dice mechanics use a d10 due the common numbering scheme of 0 to 9.

Do any of them have you count the '0' as 0 rather than 10, on exploded rolls? I haven't seen any, which is very far from "no one does".

Quote from: Mistwell;1120110Again, if quantity of sales is a measure of the quality of the product, then objectively Pundit's products must suck more than FFG's because FFG's products sell far more than Pundit's products. The number of employees or health of the company overall is not part of the equation you set forth - you set for an equation of "Sales=Quality". Well then, either your standard sucks or Pundit's products suck. Pick one.

Or they are two different products aimed at two different audiences. It would be like comparing the sales of Magic:TG to the sales of UNO.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1120129Or they are two different products aimed at two different audiences.

And since one is aimed at fewer audiences ergo it must be worse. That's the logic that's being disputed. You can't reconcile an objective measure of quality with sales.

Quote from: RandyB;1120113Do any of them have you count the '0' as 0 rather than 10, on exploded rolls? I haven't seen any, which is very far from "no one does".

Ars Magica various editions is one example. The situation is taking the highest roll and exploding is the common case but there are others.

QuoteStress Die
Stress dice are rolled when a character is under stress, and thus might succeed spectacularly, or fail with equal flair. Such a significant failure is called a "botch," and always has serious effects. For a stress roll, roll a ten-sided die. One and zero have special meanings, but the other numbers count for their value, as normal. On a roll of one, roll again and double the number rolled. If the re-roll is also a one, roll again and quadruple. On second and subsequent rolls, a zero counts as ten. If a player rolled ten consecutive ones, the number rolled on the eleventh throw would be multiplied by 1024. Stress die totals in the hundreds are likely to happen a handful of times in a long-running saga.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1120145And since one is aimed at fewer audiences ergo it must be worse. That's the logic that's being disputed. You can't reconcile an objective measure of quality with sales.

No it is not.  My argument was that FFG put themselves in the position where it was not sustainable with crappy products and thus forced to lay off people.  The reason why the products are crappy is because and this had been stated by others THE COMPANY IGNORES ITS PLAY TESTERS.  Not to mention making games that are high entry, IP is owned by some one else, and require parts (cards, specialty dice, tokens, and etc.) that only FFG sells.  That is a disaster waiting to happen.

SHEER VOLUME OF PRODUCTS SOLD WAS NOT MY ARGUMENT.  I don't know how to make that any more loud and clear to you guys.  Hell this is why I say Pundit is successful because he made it so that it is almost impossible for him to fail.  The man thought ahead and remove as many things possible that could ruin him.  Kevin Crawsford is very successful in this regard as well and his kickstarter reputation is fantastic which shows how successful he is.

FFG was always an anomalous timebomb in my thinking. Its games are for what I see as the "Dollhouse Gamer" (or "Tchotchke Gamer"), as opposed to the "Diorama Gamer." They have all these lovingly elaborate (and proprietary) pieces: various shaped cardboard chits with elaborate art, similar variety of plastic models, boardgame tiles, specialty dice, game tokens, et cetera ad infinitum. That's gotta cost in art, design, molds & prints, packaging, and so on.

Which is different from the "Diorama Gamer"  where you can recoup on book codeces, rebranded paint & brushes, repurchased models to complete squads, and so forth. You have a semi-complete core batch purchase and then the rest is bought to one's 'completionist' threshold -- which allows adjusting for the core set's & accessories' costs to be easily adjusted for profit margins. FFG games have to be whole upon purchase, with complete expansions thereafter -- no modular bits or repeat purchases to shift profit margins about.

It never made sense to me as a business model. Everything was too different and did not play in the same universe. They were discrete unto themselves. AND the games were not hobbies unto themselves, like diorama building, they were elaborate set pieces -- essentially finished at the time of purchase.

One of the big things about miniatures, CCGs, and RPGs is that they involve more out-of-game time than boardgames. They involve crafting playtime. They can be solo activities that invite returned contemplation & effort, which can involve returned purchases. So FFG products looked more to me like Barbie's Dreamhouse & Pool versus a LEGOs Pirates set + LEGO core blocks. The play is contained, specialized, and well-embellished yet prices out the DIYers.

It just looked like a company building pricey special editions that took too long to setup up and had not enough solo hobbyist activity. :( Hence my waiting for this seeming inevitable.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1120174It never made sense to me as a business model. Everything was too different and did not play in the same universe. They were discrete unto themselves. AND the games were not hobbies unto themselves, like diorama building, they were elaborate set pieces -- essentially finished at the time of purchase.

One of the big things about miniatures, CCGs, and RPGs is that they involve more out-of-game time than boardgames. They involve crafting playtime. They can be solo activities that invite returned contemplation & effort, which can involve returned purchases. So FFG products looked more to me like Barbie's Dreamhouse & Pool versus a LEGOs Pirates set + LEGO core blocks. The play is contained, specialized, and well-embellished yet prices out the DIYers.

It just looked like a company building pricey special editions that took too long to setup up and had not enough solo hobbyist activity. :( Hence my waiting for this seeming inevitable.

Their board games ro far better than their RPGs despite being costlier to produce. But according to FFG staff they have some good deals with various factories in China, though that comes at a proce as said factories tended to have alot of errors too. But they calculated that into their margin of error for orders.

FFG has pretty much sanely stayed away from the collectible trap. Even the CCG they acquired they released as a standard card game with expansions. Their LCG business model for their other card games seems to be working fine.

Um... you havent bought many board games have you? News flash. 90% of all board games, even from the same company, tend to be different every game unless its an expansion for an existing game.  Rare are the ones that can be used for other play like RPGs and such. "Diorama" is never a factor. These are just pawns with glitz.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120167The reason why the products are crappy is because and this had been stated by others THE COMPANY IGNORES ITS PLAY TESTERS.

So either stop shifting goalposts or express yourself better. To my question of "Why Are their games bad" you answered "Because the Market said so and they wouldn't be selling poorly if they where good". If you said "Because they don't playtest their games and have a very high barrier of entry and so the market had responded as such" we wouldn't be having this massive rigamaroll.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120167No it is not.  My argument was that FFG put themselves in the position where it was not sustainable with crappy products and thus forced to lay off people.  The reason why the products are crappy is because and this had been stated by others THE COMPANY IGNORES ITS PLAY TESTERS.  Not to mention making games that are high entry, IP is owned by some one else, and require parts (cards, specialty dice, tokens, and etc.) that only FFG sells.  That is a disaster waiting to happen.

SHEER VOLUME OF PRODUCTS SOLD WAS NOT MY ARGUMENT.  I don't know how to make that any more loud and clear to you guys.  Hell this is why I say Pundit is successful because he made it so that it is almost impossible for him to fail.  The man thought ahead and remove as many things possible that could ruin him.  Kevin Crawsford is very successful in this regard as well and his kickstarter reputation is fantastic which shows how successful he is.

You don't know how more loud and clear you could make it, except NONE of those things were in your initial position which we all replied to?

Yeesh. You must be one of those guys who expects his significant other to read his mind all the time, because you suck at this communication thing. Just as a reminder, this is the last thing you said prior to this most recent post, "if they made good rpgs that people wanted to buy then there wouldn't be lay offs." Before that, you said "their games are crap because the market said so," which is also very consistent argument with the later one and also has none of this other stuff you're now pretending was your argument all along.

Neither argument you made earlier was about sustainability. Nothing about playtesters. Nothing about high entry games. Nothing about IP owned by others. Nothing about parts. You literally only talked about sheer volume of products sold, and now you're denying you were arguing that. Well that's nice, but you needed to actually communicate those other thoughts rather than expect us to read into a single sentence of "if they made good rpgs that people wanted to buy then there wouldn't be lay offs," all the rest of that.

Quote from: Mistwell;1120189You don't know how more loud and clear you could make it, except NONE of those things were in your initial position which we all replied to?

Quite right; we're not arguing with his later points--hell, I even helped to make one of them with him--but the initial idea why FFG's games are/were crap just wasn't supported.

Quote from: Omega;1120177Um... you havent bought many board games have you? News flash. 90% of all board games, even from the same company, tend to be different every game unless its an expansion for an existing game.  Rare are the ones that can be used for other play like RPGs and such. "Diorama" is never a factor. These are just pawns with glitz.

There's no reason to be snide with me. :( Of course I've bought my share of boardgames. But back then there were either far less pieces or relatively reusable pieces. Dice were often interchangeable, and pawns/counters were often more abstract than specific representational. So a Parcheesi piece or Sorry pawn were not so specific as to be unusable elsewhere. And those games that were elaborate often were chit-based and had spare blanks on the sprues.

Nowadays I have played many boardgames, but buy next to none. They are larger, take more space, more setup, and have often less play return -- especially outside of the game. (And don't get me started on the "[Boardgame] Legacy" crappy trend... :mad:) It seems more trend hype than playtested longevity. It looks like a boom-bust cycle from the outside.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1120207It looks like a boom-bust cycle from the outside.

I was at a boardgame design meetup in early January and the "boom-bust cycle" was a major discussion.

The consensus was the boom will continue, but agreed even a small recession will cause massive market upheaval. The biggest discussion was how Asmodee has gone from dominant to scary dominant. There was no consensus about what that's going to mean for the rest of the market or Kickstarter.

Quote from: Mistwell;1120189You don't know how more loud and clear you could make it, except NONE of those things were in your initial position which we all replied to?

Yeesh. You must be one of those guys who expects his significant other to read his mind all the time, because you suck at this communication thing. Just as a reminder, this is the last thing you said prior to this most recent post, "if they made good rpgs that people wanted to buy then there wouldn't be lay offs." Before that, you said "their games are crap because the market said so," which is also very consistent argument with the later one and also has none of this other stuff you're now pretending was your argument all along.

Neither argument you made earlier was about sustainability. Nothing about playtesters. Nothing about high entry games. Nothing about IP owned by others. Nothing about parts. You literally only talked about sheer volume of products sold, and now you're denying you were arguing that. Well that's nice, but you needed to actually communicate those other thoughts rather than expect us to read into a single sentence of "if they made good rpgs that people wanted to buy then there wouldn't be lay offs," all the rest of that.

You know your right.  The market said your game is shit wasn't a good way to explain it because it really didn't hammer the point home.  My bad.

Still my other points are actually in the right though.  How in the hell can you sustain a business if you keep buying licences to IPs that you don't own thus you don't control?  With Games Workshop burning FFG you would think that FFG would wise up to that, but they didn't.  Hell I bet they thought they can sell Star Wars for possibly a decade, but then Disney had to fuck it up with the sequel movies.  Which hey FFG your in good company cause Toys R Us got fucked over too.  Seriously they need to choke Bob Igor for that shit because he allowed it to happen.  Man should had fired Kathleen and fix Lucasfilms.  Man all those poor workers.  They did not deserve to lose their jobs.  

For that matter how can you expect to have a lot of customers to play a tabletop rpg with specialty dice that they can only get from you?  They did that with Warhammer Fantasy 3rd edition and it bombed.  It should had been a warning sign to them that they need to stop it with the junk they keep adding to their games because it is not sustainable.  The second edition of Warhammer Fantasy second edition continues to be the bread winner for Warhammer Fantasy during that time.  They tried to make drastic changes for Dark Heresy 2nd edition and it failed.  I only assume that Star Wars was so successful was simply because it was Star Wars.  I think they stop making books for LotFR and they only made the core system book.  Specialty dice is just a road map to failure.

Then there is the whole not listening to play testers which I forgot about.  So who ever brought it up with the Star Wars play test thank you.  I mean it is amazing how many red flags were waved at FFG, but they refuse to listen.

So here is my new argument.  FFG failed the tabletop rpg because who ever was head in that department was too stupid to run his job right.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120258I think they stop making books for LotFR and they only made the core system book.  

Legend of the Five Rings currently has a beginner's box, the core book, a setting book, a court politics book, a Shadowlands book, 2 adventures and a GM's kit.  

There is a 3rd adventure and a ronin + lands beyond Rokugan book still due out early this year.

The adventures are pretty nice.  They have NPC tokens, double sided maps and act as mini-setting guides.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119265Why the joy at their failure? Is this one of those "They played games the wrong way!" things?

Anything not done his way is wrong. This isn't news.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120258You know your right.  The market said your game is shit wasn't a good way to explain it because it really didn't hammer the point home.  My bad.

Huh well this is rare on the net but always apreciated.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120258Specialty dice is just a road map to failure...

Then there is the whole not listening to play testers which I forgot about.  So who ever brought it up with the Star Wars play test thank you.  I mean it is amazing how many red flags were waved at FFG, but they refuse to listen.

So here is my new argument.  FFG failed the tabletop rpg because who ever was head in that department was too stupid to run his job right.

...and thus, did TSR learn that us gamers and gamemasters had ZERO interest in Dragon Dice. I get it though. The designers wanted to include some new tools to work with the new game mechanics. Trouble is, the players and GMs want the rules to be the transparent part of the game, instead the rules intrude themselves and break the immersion. Plus, there is just that much more to learn, in order to play.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1120270...and thus, did TSR learn that us gamers and gamemasters had ZERO interest in Dragon Dice.

Actually Dragon Dice sold pretty well. It was the CCG, or in this case CDG, element that helped kill it along with TSR producing far more of it than the market could handle. The game is actually still chugging along after a new company acquired the game and the molds. They just recently started or finished another KS campaign.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120258They did that with Warhammer Fantasy 3rd edition and it bombed.  It should had been a warning sign to them that they need to stop it with the junk they keep adding to their games because it is not sustainable.

I see FFG's SW RPGs as "learning the lessons" from WFRP 3e. They dropped all the tokens, cards, gameboards, etc All they were left with were the special dice.

I still think a custom dice game could work as long as the dice themselves actually speed up play. I found the dice mechanics in Imperial Assault to be far better than the ones from the RPG simply because they made combat faster and it was more logically designed. For example, in Imperial Assault, you have separate armor dice and dodge dice for defense that each had strengths and weaknesses. In the RPG, you had one die (Setback) to add for any sort of hindrance so all you could adjust was the number. And because of the way the die was laid out, it actually didn't work very well to stop a player from succeeding, as it only gave out 1 Fail per three dice rolled on average.

I also don't think that historic sales for these RPGs was what caused the department to be shut down. You had several factors:
1) the disappointing sales and reception of X-Wing 2e reducing their big cash cow.
2) several high profile board game failures (Arkham Horror 3e, Fallout, and Middle Earth Journeys) which received low reviews and excitement.
3) it doesn't appear that there is anything major in the pipeline for their RPG crew. The last major SW RPG release was 2015.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1120299I see FFG's SW RPGs as "learning the lessons" from WFRP 3e. They dropped all the tokens, cards, gameboards, etc All they were left with were the special dice.

I still think a custom dice game could work as long as the dice themselves actually speed up play. I found the dice mechanics in Imperial Assault to be far better than the ones from the RPG simply because they made combat faster and it was more logically designed. For example, in Imperial Assault, you have separate armor dice and dodge dice for defense that each had strengths and weaknesses. In the RPG, you had one die (Setback) to add for any sort of hindrance so all you could adjust was the number. And because of the way the die was laid out, it actually didn't work very well to stop a player from succeeding, as it only gave out 1 Fail per three dice rolled on average.

I also don't think that historic sales for these RPGs was what caused the department to be shut down. You had several factors:
1) the disappointing sales and reception of X-Wing 2e reducing their big cash cow.
2) several high profile board game failures (Arkham Horror 3e, Fallout, and Middle Earth Journeys) which received low reviews and excitement.
3) it doesn't appear that there is anything major in the pipeline for their RPG crew. The last major SW RPG release was 2015.

Many of the RPG players were very excited for the two Clone Wars supplements that came out early last year. Sure, it's not another Core Rulebook, but they've already sold three of those.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120258You know your right.  The market said your game is shit wasn't a good way to explain it because it really didn't hammer the point home.  My bad.

Thank you for saying that. I appreciate that you are a man of principles. Which is rare on the Internet. So pat yourself on the back today.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1120025The designers stated that they never did any numerical analysis of their dice, they just make sure they "felt right". Which was obvious the first time someone actually did it.

Hi. Do you have a link for that statement? I remember reading in a blog that the skills/ability tend to create "success", and the difficulty tends to generate "threats", which I found an exciting way to set the tone of the game.

Anyway. I just wanted to say I love this game.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1120270...and thus, did TSR learn that us gamers and gamemasters had ZERO interest in Dragon Dice. I get it though. The designers wanted to include some new tools to work with the new game mechanics. Trouble is, the players and GMs want the rules to be the transparent part of the game, instead the rules intrude themselves and break the immersion. Plus, there is just that much more to learn, in order to play.

It was not so much that Dragon Dice were bad.  It was that buying a rush order of a million Dragon Dice air freighted to the US was bad.  Really really bad.

Quote from: Rithuan;1120330HI remember reading in a blog that the skills/ability tend to create "success", and the difficulty tends to generate "threats", which I found an exciting way to set the tone of the game.

Unfortunately I don't have a quote. It was on their forums about 10 years go. As to your point. Yes, the bad dice tent to produce fewer failures than the good dice produce successes (except the Blue die which I mentioned was an anomaly*]. But the bad dice also generate about as much Threat as the good dice produce Advantage (some are better, some are worse but, overall, not by much). This makes a success with threat the most common result but ONLY if the number of dice being rolled are evenly split between good and bad dice.

The problem start to occur when the number of one type of dice outnumbers the other which happens when a player starts rolling 5 dice or, more commonly, in starfighter battles.


*If you swapped two Advantage results for two Success results on the Blue die, it would fix a lot of the issues.

Quote from: Shasarak;1120337It was not so much that Dragon Dice were bad.  It was that buying a rush order of a million Dragon Dice air freighted to the US was bad.  Really really bad.

From talking with staff and players way back. Part of the problem was of course the Collectible aspect. Or more aptly, the problem of random buy, rarity, and DICE. Collectible minis games would face this as well.

The problem was over time you end up with potentially ALOT of commons. And unlike card games. Dice, especially the larger DS dice. Take up space. Potentially alot of space. Which can make transporting a set potentially harder too the more you get.

I only got partially into the game and ended up with a small bin of dice before trading some off. I met other players with LARGE bins of dice and thats when a player will start to realize theres a problem and increasingly likely to opt out.

But this is why theres usually a burnout in CxGs. Eventually a customer realizes what a money sink its become or is becoming and unlike most other games and RPGs. Tons of commons tend to be useless.

I ran into this when I was partners with BDP for Dragon Storm. I eventually got a complete collection of all the cards for both sets. But in the process ended up with alot of extras. Most of which I still have after other non-CCG related problems cause others to opt out.

FFG does not have that problem. So far none of their games are collectible. So they do not have that problem to deal with and their LCG system works very well.

Quote from: Omega;1120415FFG does not have that problem. So far none of their games are collectible. So they do not have that problem to deal with and their LCG system works very well.

FFG does have their own collectible dice game with boosters and everything called Star Wars Destiny. They recently cancelled it.
https://geekculture.co/star-wars-destiny-dice-game-canceled-by-fantasy-flight-games/

Back in 2000, there was a collectible game called Star Trek Red Alert. It was a token flipping over game (there were several back then if you believe it). The game failed and I had a handful of boxes of it. However, I was on their forums post-fail and Last Unicorn dumped a bunch of complete sets (a giant brick of cardboard) for like $20 each. I bought that an it ended up being a great game that I played a ton of despite me not being that big of a Trek fan. I wonder if SW Destiny would have survived had it been sold in a non-collectible format.

Quote from: Omega;1120415FFG does not have that problem. So far none of their games are collectible. So they do not have that problem to deal with and their LCG system works very well.

From my very limited experience with the FFG L5R CCG, although the set itself is not randomised, if you want a playset of a particular card then you would need to buy multiple packs which would lead to the accumulation of the aforementioned common cards.  And, of course, they release more and more sets leading to more and more cards.

However I kicked my CCG habit years ago so no personal experience on how much a fixed card set "solved" the accumulation problem anymore more or less then just throwing out the stuff that you dont use.

Quote from: Shasarak;1120425However I kicked my CCG habit years ago

Me too. I realized it drew upon addictive tendencies and stood away. Now I discourage this sort of behavior everywhere.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1120419FFG does have their own collectible dice game with boosters and everything called Star Wars Destiny. They recently cancelled it.
https://geekculture.co/star-wars-destiny-dice-game-canceled-by-fantasy-flight-games/

FFG made that? Did not know that. Thanks.

Quote from: Shasarak;1120425From my very limited experience with the FFG L5R CCG, although the set itself is not randomised, if you want a playset of a particular card then you would need to buy multiple packs which would lead to the accumulation of the aforementioned common cards.

And, of course, they release more and more sets leading to more and more cards.

1: That isnt a problem of the game, its a problem created by the player. We've seen this time and again over on BGG where people flip out over a standalone card game because they decide the NEEEEEEED!!!!! X more cards and that the company making the game is FORCING!!!! them to buy a second box. No really. I got thoroughly sick of these antics a decade ago.

2: But you dont have to buy the expansions and far as I've seen most tend to be fairly small? That was the whole point of the LCG model. Little expansions released on a fairly quick and regular basis.

x: Though not sure what those big box expansions are for say Arkham Horror?

Quote from: Omega;11204421: That isnt a problem of the game, its a problem created by the player. We've seen this time and again over on BGG where people flip out over a standalone card game because they decide the NEEEEEEED!!!!! X more cards and that the company making the game is FORCING!!!! them to buy a second box. No really. I got thoroughly sick of these antics a decade ago.

2: But you dont have to buy the expansions and far as I've seen most tend to be fairly small? That was the whole point of the LCG model. Little expansions released on a fairly quick and regular basis.

x: Though not sure what those big box expansions are for say Arkham Horror?

All problems boil down to problems with the Player one way or another.  For example one of my friends actually made money trading CCGs while another had to get at least four of every card.  And thats playing the exact same game.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1120435Me too. I realized it drew upon addictive tendencies and stood away. Now I discourage this sort of behavior everywhere.

I wish I could say the same but for me it turns out that small children and CCGs just dont mix well and my wife said that we had to keep the kids.

Quote from: Omega;1120442x: Though not sure what those big box expansions are for say Arkham Horror?

The Arkham Horror LCG sells their scenarios in sets called "cycles". Each cycles has six scenarios, two come in the big box expansion, which include new characters, and the other four come in individual packs. (there are also standalone scenarios as well).

My issues with this method is 1) they release the packs too quickly and it's difficult to keep up, and 2) they always have cards in their big box expansions that are useless because they refer to cards that are only sold in the follow on scenario packs and those cards are, themselves, useless unless you have the big box expansion. #1 means that I skip entire cycles when I fall behind and #2 is annoying but tolerable. I just pull those cards out of my library to keep people I'm playing with from unknowingly adding it to their deck.

Speaking of AH:LCG, the one thing that has surprised me the most about this game is that they never used the engine on any other theme or license. A narrative card game version of Star Wars or Fallout would have been an auto buy for me. I like the game but don't really care that much for their pseudo-Lovecraft setting.

Quote from: Omega;1120442x: Though not sure what those big box expansions are for say Arkham Horror?

For the AH LCG?  There are 2 types of big boxes.  

The first is what they consider a deluxe expansion.  It's the start of a new campaign series.  The box has an intro scenario, the 1st two scenario decks for that campaign and some new cards for the players to use to customize their own decks.

The other type, usually titled "Return to X" is an expansion they put out after a campaign has concluded.  So Return to the Path to Carcosa came out after The Path to Carcosa completed it's run.  The box has new cards to add to change up the whole series of the scenario, giving it some extra replay.  The box is also big enough to put all the previous expansions for that campaign in, so it becomes a handy storage box for all the cards you just collected.

Ahhh, so standard FFG tactics of chopping a product up into segments such that you need all the parts to make a whole. They used to have a bad rep for that.

Quote from: Omega;1120636Ahhh, so standard FFG tactics of chopping a product up into segments such that you need all the parts to make a whole. They used to have a bad rep for that.

Why the past tense? They still have a well-deserved bad rep for it.

My experience with their LCGs is zero so did not know that they were still using that approach. The board games I've seen or have from them have so far been bog standard stand-alone games that might get an expansion. But you dont need the expansion to get the full experience as it were. Arkham Horror and Betrayal at house on the Hill are the two I am most familliar with and both of those have expansions, yes. But they are not required to play the core game. The rest? Dont know?

Don't bring up Betrayal at House on the Hill.  The core is pretty good and I am a proud owner of that.  The expansion can burn in hell as it got Antia and I think Zoey Quinn to involve in that.  From what I heard the expansion is a woke fest.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120720Don't bring up Betrayal at House on the Hill.  The core is pretty good and I am a proud owner of that.  The expansion can burn in hell as it got Antia and I think Zoey Quinn to involve in that.  From what I heard the expansion is a woke fest.

Really? I'll have a glance at it as I have it but havent had a chance to play yet.

Quote from: Omega;1120722Really? I'll have a glance at it as I have it but havent had a chance to play yet.

Yeah they got involved in that project from what I had been told and what reviews I read.  The core game is fine and perfectly good.  Hell you can make up your own stuff if you add a dice roll to it so that is a good way to avoid the expansion.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120780Yeah they got involved in that project from what I had been told and what reviews I read.  The core game is fine and perfectly good.  Hell you can make up your own stuff if you add a dice roll to it so that is a good way to avoid the expansion.

I guess you can say a betrayal happened in the house at the betrayal at house on the hill?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1120787I guess you can say a betrayal happened in the house at the betrayal at house on the hill?

True, but a good way to expand the game without the expansion is to grab one of the dice when the haunting happens make a roll.  Blank you follow the original table, one you follow the new table that you made up, and two you follow the other table you made up.  Each table should have 50 events so going by this route we can easily generate 100 more events easily.  If you want to go crazy get a normal d6 and treat the original table as 1 and any number higher than that is expansion table.  There I saved you all money.  I gave you a lot of work as some one has to make the events, but still that saved you money.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120780Yeah they got involved in that project from what I had been told and what reviews I read.  The core game is fine and perfectly good.  Hell you can make up your own stuff if you add a dice roll to it so that is a good way to avoid the expansion.

Oh this is good. I totally missed that this was a WOTC product and for some reason thought it was a FFG one. :o

Ok. Had a look at it as it was still out rather than packed away. Bemusingly sitting with 5e D&D Essentials. :rolleyes:

Anita and Zoe are indeed credited in there. But so are like 38 other people. Seems like some sort of contest or big collab participation of somesort?

Each participant is credited for one or more haunts and since they are credited with the individual haunt suggests again this was some sort of contest or collab. These adventures seem to be partially in the same vein as Blood Brothers for CoC. Not exactly serious forays or offbeat approaches.

Zoe contributed a thinly veiled anti-Trump haunt. Anita's is co-authored with someone else on two (and one shes not even named) and surprisingly neither has not a hint of her usual poison. They are not exactly coherent. But are not an anti-man agenda platform.

Quote from: Omega;1120848Oh this is good. I totally missed that this was a WOTC product and for some reason thought it was a FFG one. :o

Yeah maybe we should get back on topic.

Quote from: Omega;1120848Anita and Zoe are indeed credited in there. But so are like 38 other people. Seems like some sort of contest or big collab participation of somesort?

Which is why I had not touch the expansion.

Quote from: Omega;1120848Zoe contributed a thinly veiled anti-Trump haunt.

I am not surprise by that at all.

Quote from: Omega;1120848Anita's is co-authored with someone else on two (and one shes not even named) and surprisingly neither has not a hint of her usual poison. They are not exactly coherent. But are not an anti-man agenda platform.

Now that is a actual nice surprise.  Didn't think Anita could actually do that since hating on men is the whole bases of her career.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120870Now that is a actual nice surprise.  Didn't think Anita could actually do that since hating on men is the whole bases of her career.

Nah shes a con woman puppet. I doubt she really believes what she parrots. After macintosh left her team shes left without a prompter and doesn't do much anymore.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1120871Nah shes a con woman puppet. I doubt she really believes what she parrots. After macintosh left her team shes left without a prompter and doesn't do much anymore.

I know she is fucking con artist.  So what happen?  Did Macintosh's daddy remove his belt and taught his son a lesson?  Why did he leave the team?

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120870Yeah maybe we should get back on topic.

Now that is a actual nice surprise.  Didn't think Anita could actually do that since hating on men is the whole bases of her career.

1: what topic? :rolleyes:

2: The fact WOTC didn't tout ether of these two grifters involvement says that they were either unaware at the time. Which is possible. Or whatever was submitted didnt set off any warning bells. Who knows.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1120878I know she is fucking con artist.  So what happen?  Did Macintosh's daddy remove his belt and taught his son a lesson?  Why did he leave the team?

I don't fucking know. Id try to imagine what goes on in that mans mind but my soul would become a black pit and Id start a doomsday cult.

Just saw this on Reddit. Wonder what's going to happen to the Star Wars RPG license?

http://www.d20radio.com/main/fantasy-flight-games-long-term-plan-will-discontinue-rpg-development/

Quote from: kreegan;1122510Just saw this on Reddit. Wonder what's going to happen to the Star Wars RPG license?

http://www.d20radio.com/main/fantasy-flight-games-long-term-plan-will-discontinue-rpg-development/

My bet? With the license agreements as convoluted as they are (Fantasy Flight could never make PDF versions since they would have crossed into the territory of the videogames licensing, IIRC), as long as FFG is still making x-wing and other SW products, they'll have to hold onto the rpg rights too, even if they're not printing anything new ( unless something lets them sublet it out to another publisher). I'd imagine l5r is in a similar state as last ng as they keep making a card game.

I did get notice that they are now shipping their last announced Star Wars book. I'm getting it to complete my set. No announcement of anything beyond that.

Edit: Actually, they have confirmed that they are ending rpg production once the products already in production are out. So for Star Wars, this is the last book.

So they are ending all RPG production. That is interesting indeed.

At a personal guess they may have finally realized the gimics werent selling.

Or their printing agreements have changed enough to make RPGs no longer profitable. FFG functions through some great manufacturer deals they have. I suspect that is why they get more into RPGs for a while. They secured a good printer that made it viable.

Based on the shipping times from the printer to their warehouse I'd say they use China and between the tariffs now in place, the recent delays with US Customs for all things China, and the corona virus playing havoc over there I'd say they just felt it was too much to continue to print there and they're too lazy to look else where from something as low on their list as RPG material.

Which is sad because they own L5R now and I don't see them letting anyone else touch it until they squeezed everything they can for the card game.

Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1122562Based on the shipping times from the printer to their warehouse I'd say they use China and between the tariffs now in place, the recent delays with US Customs for all things China, and the corona virus playing havoc over there I'd say they just felt it was too much to continue to print there and they're too lazy to look else where from something as low on their list as RPG material.

Which is sad because they own L5R now and I don't see them letting anyone else touch it until they squeezed everything they can for the card game.

Correct. FFG staff have stated before that they have all, or most, of their product made in China. Came up in a discussion we were having about defective product and according to FFG. They at the time tended to order more games than needed so they had some spares to cover the defects. Which tended to be high if you dont watch the factory like a hawk.

Quote from: kreegan;1122510Just saw this on Reddit. Wonder what's going to happen to the Star Wars RPG license?

http://www.d20radio.com/main/fantasy-flight-games-long-term-plan-will-discontinue-rpg-development/

I saw someone suggest Paizo should pick up the license and adapt it to their Starfinder game. And...that's not a bad idea. It could supply some sales where PF2 may be lacking.

Quote from: Mistwell;1122623I saw someone suggest Paizo should pick up the license and adapt it to their Starfinder game. And...that's not a bad idea. It could supply some sales where PF2 may be lacking.

License is bundled with minis, and FFG isn't letting it go.

Well, I'm sad to see L5R no longer have an RPG. Maybe they can sell the rights to the RPG to another company who will actually put out a competent edition.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1122627License is bundled with minis, and FFG isn't letting it go.

Given my experience drafting licenses, I think your certainty it's bundled as one license as opposed to two licenses is questionable unless you have an article or other source stating such? Usually, different types of uses each obtain their own licenses, even if signed on the same day by the same parties, so you can keep a clean line between different uses.  For reasons just like this one.  A license has value because one party is selling products using that intellectual property in a way which sends part of that money to the other party. If you're not selling anything, the license loses all value and is wasted being tied up doing nothing. So you'd want it to end, even if a separate (but related) product line continues to sell.

Quote from: Mistwell;1122623I saw someone suggest Paizo should pick up the license and adapt it to their Starfinder game. And...that's not a bad idea. It could supply some sales where PF2 may be lacking.

That is an absolutely terrible idea, but since Starfinder is D&D in Spaaaaaaace anyways (like d20 Star Wars before it), I fully support the idea and will be over here with my d6 SWRPG that has stood the test of time.

Speaking of. What is this Star Wars box set FFG released that seems to be a reprint of the WEG original? Saw it on the shelf at Barnes & Noble yesterday.

Quote from: Omega;1122645Speaking of. What is this Star Wars box set FFG released that seems to be a reprint of the WEG original? Saw it on the shelf at Barnes & Noble yesterday.

What it says on the tin. A reprint of the core rules and the first supplement as a special anniversary edition. I got a copy and am really happy with it. It's nearly identical to the original print.

Quote from: Orphan81;1122638Well, I'm sad to see L5R no longer have an RPG. Maybe they can sell the rights to the RPG to another company who will actually put out a competent edition.

Well what draws you into the game to begin with?  Maybe that could be a good way to make your own political heavy samurai game.

I saw this and it might be related. Yesterday, Asmode, the company that owns FFG, announced that they would no longer ship replacement parts for game pieces that were damaged or missing. This was a well liked feature that I used myself a few times and something that FFG did before they were bought out. Whether their excuse is real or just spin, it still doesn't look so good for Asmode.

This could be another sign of a company-wide cost cutting measure forced on FFG from above. It seems to me that the boardgame market is reaching a saturation point with multiple $100+ boardgames being released every year. Just my observation from my local game stores.

https://www.asmodeena.com/en/customer-service-faq/?fbclid=IwAR3iLDmYQClIbeQmhvX3mTHNuHZLb0-AmL9g8zKf_TE5Sy62NxM5xRqmnS4

A couple things for you. I think folks are right that FFG is having trouble sourcing their Chinese made games and parts. The Tariffs are driving up prices and the Chinese respond by raising their price to cover the new costs. Result is, the games are no longer profitable to produce or support.

Asmodee is a different story. That is the Euro-Boardgame conglomerate. In 2018 they bought Alliance, the single largest game distributor in the United States. Big on Asmodees agenda: driving out as much of the US Competition as possible, and FFG being an American game company probably hasn't been getting alot of love from Asmodee/Alliance. My condolences to the RPG developers at FFG that now have to find a new way to earn a living, hopefully most of them will get soft landings and a decent golden parachute.

Asmodee has come up before with other companies they have acquired and usually its seen as not a good thing. When they took over Plaid Hat for example they gag-ordered all the staff and have ended several ongoing lines from PH, some in mid development.

Hmmm - they just announced new L5R books:
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2020/2/24/celestial-realms/

Wonder if they're just clearing out backlog, or if the theory that Asmodee is just moving RPG development/printing elsewhere actually holds water.

Quote from: steelshadow;1123029Hmmm - they just announced new L5R books:
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2020/2/24/celestial-realms/

Wonder if they're just clearing out backlog, or if the theory that Asmodee is just moving RPG development/printing elsewhere actually holds water.

Hope floats... and so does a corpse.

Could be part of their backlog of product.
The stuff thats done and payed for and ready to print. Or close enough that stopping would be a loss.

Quote from: Orphan81;1122638Well, I'm sad to see L5R no longer have an RPG. Maybe they can sell the rights to the RPG to another company who will actually put out a competent edition.

As a L5R fan, I've never needed anything beyond 1e. That core book alone has rocked out for a dozen plus campaigns over the decades plus many, many convention one shots. So clean to run and easy to sell to newbs.

But I am surprised FFG never did a L5R boardgame, aka a Samurai Descent.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1122651Well what draws you into the game to begin with?  Maybe that could be a good way to make your own political heavy samurai game.

A fantasy samurai 5e setting book would probably sell well.

Everybody loves katanas.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1122670Asmodee is a different story. That is the Euro-Boardgame conglomerate. In 2018 they bought Alliance, the single largest game distributor in the United States. Big on Asmodees agenda: driving out as much of the US Competition as possible, and FFG being an American game company probably hasn't been getting alot of love from Asmodee/Alliance.

Asmodee deserves its own thread. It's a big scary monster now in the hobby.

Do you think Asmodee is driving out US competition in Europe? Or driving US competition out of the entire boardgame market?

Per a Reddit post regarding Asmodee's keynote at GAME, FFG RPGs will move to Edge Entertainment and continue publication

https://www.reddit.com/r/swrpg/comments/fgnhnx/comment/fk5mj3c

Quote from: steelshadow;1123897Per a Reddit post regarding Asmodee's keynote at GAME, FFG RPGs will move to Edge Entertainment and continue publication

https://www.reddit.com/r/swrpg/comments/fgnhnx/comment/fk5mj3c

It's hard to see a European company putting real effort into a game like Gene-Sys when it's just dumped on them out of the blue.

Plaid Hat and a few other publishers Asmodee absorbed have since then departed Asmodee. Usually minus a chunk of their IP. Plaid Hat lost the whole Mice & Mystics and Dead of Winter IP and more.

The folk at Plaid Hat though defend Asmodee and say they are a bunch of nice folk who started small.

Some others pointed out that Asmodee is now apparently a traded company which is usually a disaster waiting to happen and currently is happening to Asmodee. They might be nice folk. But the ones calling the shots sure arent.

As per the GAMA announcement, they just showed off their final two RPG products which will be a splat/adventure for L5R and going forward Edge Studios will be handling it.

That was a little over half a year ago in the pre Covid era. I'm saving my potatoes. There will be a storm of pink slips in the next six months.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1142369As per the GAMA announcement, they just showed off their final two RPG products which will be a splat/adventure for L5R and going forward Edge Studios will be handling it.

I misread this as Eden Studios will be handling and was like, "what...the...fu..oh".

Im just going to pull out my old FFG comic collection and cry a little at the death of another good company gone very very wrong.