Quote from: Voros;976554Wow, you guys still talking about how to expose vampires in RL?

That parts easy. Just take off their clothes...

In the era of Fake News, convincing people of vampires would probably work for the Masquerade. The implication even as far back as Vampire 1e is the that the Kindred have been waging a non-stop propaganda campaign since the Inquisition for that very reason, reinforced as CRKrueger suggested, through their Disciplines and networks of minions.

Pre-WoD Splats,  Vampire - the assumptions I made were that the Leeches controlled the media, select bureaucrats etc. to reinforce the Masquerade. Sure it was getting broken all the time, but in the nascent Internet-era it could be relatively easy to be rendered implausible. When they added the other splats - especially the Technocracy, a lot of those assumptions have to shift, or are rendered impossible.

Of course let's not underestimate the most powerful form of the Masquerade - general stupidity.

Dwight Schrute - Werewolf Hunter

Quote from: Voros;976554Wow, you guys still talking about how to expose vampires in RL?

I was thinking the same thing...

The problem with settings where the paranormal is hidden and the world is unchanged is that this raises the question of why the world looks like ours.

If the population of monsters is small, structured more like real cults or something, then this is forgivable since they cannot effect wide scale change. If the population of monsters is so high they have their own cultures, then you run into a whole host of logistical problems.

In conspiracy-themed settings the monsters secretly control world affairs and humans are pawns with no control over their own fates, or conversely the monsters are constantly on the run from the human conspiracies who want to steal their power. These settings ignore that conspiracies are impossible to maintain, and if your magic was powerful enough to obviate logistics then it would make you omnipotent. This should be obvious to anyone who has ever played SimCity, Civilization or Plague Inc.

If the monsters have a high population but do not control world affairs, then the only way they are able to remain hidden is if the human race generally denied their existence due to magic or nature or whatever. In this event, the only reason the monsters wouldn't take over the world is if that same denial applied to any authority they tried to exert.

In my experience, most settings don't think that far. I think it would make for an interesting change of pace if the premise of an urban fantasy game was that for all the characters' reality warping power, they cannot make a difference in the world because it denies their existence. You could be a dragon who torches buildings in broad daylight and everyone would pass you off as a gas explosion.

Quote from: HappyDaze;974196Preferred: Supernatural is hidden, and the world is largely like our own.
Acceptable: Supernatural is known, and the world has changed to adapt to it.
Not Acceptable: Supernatural is known, and the world is largely like our own.

I also like a side-option: the world is largely like our own, Supernatural is just about to/becoming known, and the world is about to change.

Quote from: Sergeant Brother;974172When you are playing in or with urban/modern fantasy/horror settings, do you prefer a setting where supernatural creatures are hidden from humanity and where the world seems like the real world from the perspective of a mundane citizen or do you like a setting where the supernatural openly exists and everybody knows about it?

I've always preferred settings with a Masquerade, in large part because I find it difficult to suspend disbelief in settings where everybody knows about vampires and wizards and such and yet the world is largely unchanged - like True Blood. Others have the opposite complaint, that a Masquerade is unrealistic because so many supernatural creatures couldn't remain hidden from mankind.

What are the preferences of the people here and why?

I haven't got a strong preference. It depends on the purpose of the setting.

Obviously, if you were trying to do a "modern occult" game that reflects our real world (rather than a world drastically changed), the supernatural would have to be ultra-hidden, probably something only certain people with the right training could even notice.

And fun-fact.

In WOD there have been exposes. They just never go anywhere because the supernaturals pull so many strings. Or the mundanes misinterpret the evidence. Or are covering it up themselves.

In one example the government had some sort of new viewer and inadvertently could see into the lands of the dead. They think what they created is some sort of dimensional viewer into some alien dimension. I believe another had them aware of vampires in some small way. But they think they are aliens since they show differently on a new scanner. Think it was the same with werewolves. They were assumed to be mutants or somesuch.

And the supernaturals are constantly pulling strings to make sure the lid isnt blown. Or that no one believes when it is.

Theres also at least two organizations that are combatting various supernatural occurrences. But keep a low profile and do cover up as they are also very aware of how entrenched some of these beings are.

In BTS we just assumed the setting was akin to Ghostbusters or Night Stalker. Even if you expose something or show your kewl powers. Something happens to derail it somehow or its just not believed no matter what you do.

The "Vampires are so powerful they secretly control everything" was to me one of the big flaws of the OWoD (don't know enough about nWoD to judge if it's the same there). Because it tended to create a metaplot-protecting situation where anything the PCs wanted to do that might disrupt the grand story of the GM/designers would be impossible because of the all-powerful hierarchy of much stronger vampires.

Quote from: RPGPundit;978030The "Vampires are so powerful they secretly control everything" was to me one of the big flaws of the OWoD (don't know enough about nWoD to judge if it's the same there). Because it tended to create a metaplot-protecting situation where anything the PCs wanted to do that might disrupt the grand story of the GM/designers would be impossible because of the all-powerful hierarchy of much stronger vampires.

To a point. But Id lay good odds that there were DMs who allowed the PCs or whatever to blow the lid off it and ran with the aftermath.

But having those sorts of lockdowns doesnt stifle the players other than curbing attempts to derail things on a major level. And you know some try to.
Without something to curb them one way or another then why even bother having a setting? And WW was all about setting. But whats the point in having a setting where vampires have been around forever and in secret and then not have some way of preventing some smartass from hopping on TV and blowing it all? Unless you are the GM and are perfectly fine with that, in which case no amounts of locks will prevent it.

So its complaining about metaplot when metaplot isnt the big bad boogieman some of you keep trying to claim it is.

Quote from: RPGPundit;978030The "Vampires are so powerful they secretly control everything" was to me one of the big flaws of the OWoD (don't know enough about nWoD to judge if it's the same there). Because it tended to create a metaplot-protecting situation where anything the PCs wanted to do that might disrupt the grand story of the GM/designers would be impossible because of the all-powerful hierarchy of much stronger vampires.

It's an inaccurate description of classic Vampire that the Kindred secretly control everything (this is assuming that we're only talking Vampire). They have great influence in 1e in many of the great institutions, but as I recall, they were pretty adamant of steering clear of government rulers. Of course there's always that one or two well-positioned ghouls. In the early days of Vampire it was about influence and of course the paranoia of the Jyhad.

As they started packing in more metaplot, the obvious bloat began to grow. It didn't go into overdrive until the other splats hit. And when the Technocracy arrived, well it pretty much meant that you had to create your own "setting conceits" for your individual campaign. WW maintained that this was by intent. I think they tried too hard to have it both ways and call bullshit.

NWoD - is much more tool-kit. They avoid grand conspiracies and keep each major city as a city-state comprised of leeches adhering to one of five political factions (or none), which is a better setup imo.

Quote from: tenbones;978076you had to create your own "setting conceits" for your individual campaign. WW maintained that this was by intent. I think they tried too hard to have it both ways and call bullshit.

Best summation of the classic World of Darkness out there.

Hell, people won't/can't even agree if the games were meant to be crossed over or not.

Quote from: Omega;978036But having those sorts of lockdowns doesnt stifle the players other than curbing attempts to derail things on a major level. And you know some try to.
Without something to curb them one way or another then why even bother having a setting? And WW was all about setting. But whats the point in having a setting where vampires have been around forever and in secret and then not have some way of preventing some smartass from hopping on TV and blowing it all? Unless you are the GM and are perfectly fine with that, in which case no amounts of locks will prevent it.

My original point about V:tM is that it is inconsistent. The vampires can decisively find and deal with any threat to the masquerade - detecting activity in a rural spot anywhere on the globe, and wiping it out with no trace. However, they can't use this overwhelming power to deal with anything *except* the masquerade, or possibly other derailing activities by the PCs. However, they still have difficulty dealing with all sorts of other problems - such that PCs can act against the powers-that-be as long as it fits the plot.

In general with settings, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a setting that the PCs can change - but where that is an open question. So maybe there's an evil emperor who has been around for hundreds of years. The PCs aren't derailing the game if they try to fight against the empire and/or kill the emperor - but they're also not guaranteed to succeed.

I meant more in terms of Vampire Society than the world at large, though in my experience the Masquerade itself prevents many things in that area, and of course much more powerful people control the Masquerade.


Anyways, I like the idea in other games of there being some kind of veil of secrecy hiding the supernatural world. But not for it to be used as a metaplot-enforcing device.

Quote from: Sergeant Brother;974172When you are playing in or with urban/modern fantasy/horror settings, do you prefer a setting where supernatural creatures are hidden from humanity and where the world seems like the real world from the perspective of a mundane citizen...

Yep.

Quote...or do you like a setting where the supernatural openly exists and everybody knows about it?

Nope. But for those who do there's always Shadowrun.

Quote from: jhkim;978178My original point about V:tM is that it is inconsistent. The vampires can decisively find and deal with any threat to the masquerade - detecting activity in a rural spot anywhere on the globe, and wiping it out with no trace. However, they can't use this overwhelming power to deal with anything *except* the masquerade, or possibly other derailing activities by the PCs. However, they still have difficulty dealing with all sorts of other problems - such that PCs can act against the powers-that-be as long as it fits the plot.

In general with settings, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a setting that the PCs can change - but where that is an open question. So maybe there's an evil emperor who has been around for hundreds of years. The PCs aren't derailing the game if they try to fight against the empire and/or kill the emperor - but they're also not guaranteed to succeed.

That's bugged me for a long time too. I decided to explain the whole problem away by making the veil of secrecy a paranormal phenomenon that the monsters themselves don't maintain. It's a double edged sword: it prevents the muggles as a whole from noticing the paranormal, but it also prevents the abhumans from manipulating world affairs, much like time travelers from the future trying to change history in a setting where history resists interference. For example, a cabal of Jewish vampires/werewolves/witches/whatever attempted to assassinate Hitler and ended up failing every single time, while a cabal of Nazi monsters who tried to rescue Hitler from the Russians likewise failed.