Quote from: jhkim;974658[..] complete, living, and demonstrably supernatural human-like body [...] In Vampire: The Masquerade, essentially any medical professional can confirm that a captured vampire is supernatural

I think you're making a lot of assumptions about vampire "biology" (necrology?) that isn't supported by the text.  It's been quite a while for me, but at least two editions of Classic VtM came down solidly on the "vampires are corpses animated and preserved by magic, and it requires conscious effort on their part to maintain a semblance of the biological processes" side of things. That makes a vampire in Torpor - or one that's just not keeping up with the pretense - indistinguishable from a well-preserved corpse with a stick shoved through the ribcage.

And even if that's not strictly true for any particular edition of VtM, there are plenty of fictional settings where it is true, making the "oh yeah, scientific proof of vampires is totes easy" a bit less neat than you're suggesting. At least part of the conceit of any coherent setting that has hidden supernatural beings in it is that if they're halfways sapient, they possess powers or abilities that help them stay hidden, even in the face of modern technology.

Quote from: daniel_ream;974920I think you're making a lot of assumptions about vampire "biology" (necrology?) that isn't supported by the text.  It's been quite a while for me, but at least two editions of Classic VtM came down solidly on the "vampires are corpses animated and preserved by magic, and it requires conscious effort on their part to maintain a semblance of the biological processes" side of things. That makes a vampire in Torpor - or one that's just not keeping up with the pretense - indistinguishable from a well-preserved corpse with a stick shoved through the ribcage.

You state "well-preserved" - but in reality, corpses decay in a very measurable rate starting from the point of death, such that time of death can be estimated from the state of a corpse. With a vampire body, they don't progressively decay - which is a dead giveaway. :-) Further, take the stake out and give the vampire some blood and they'll recover, which is demonstrably different than human corpses.

Quote from: daniel_ream;974920And even if that's not strictly true for any particular edition of VtM, there are plenty of fictional settings where it is true, making the "oh yeah, scientific proof of vampires is totes easy" a bit less neat than you're suggesting. At least part of the conceit of any coherent setting that has hidden supernatural beings in it is that if they're halfways sapient, they possess powers or abilities that help them stay hidden, even in the face of modern technology.

Can you suggest such settings?  In a book or movie, the author can use fiat to say that the supernatural stays hidden. However, in an RPG, there is the tension that a PC may want to blow the lid off the hiddenness of the supernatural, and in all of the RPG settings that I've seen, doing so is well within their power.

Quote from: jhkim;975230You state "well-preserved" - but in reality, corpses decay in a very measurable rate starting from the point of death, such that time of death can be estimated from the state of a corpse.

Your understanding of forensic pathology...differs from mine.

As an aside, one thing I see a lot in these kinds of hypothetical gaming situations is an aggravated form of the CSI Effect.  Modern science is nowhere near as reliable as gamers (and well, lay people in general) like to think.  Putrefaction is easily the least accurate of measures for determining time of death; depending on environmental conditions, onset of widespread decomposition can vary by days in either direction.

That aside, what forensic pathologist is honestly going to leap to "OMG VAMPIRE" when presented with a corpse that doesn't decay through putrefaction, but instead seems to slowly self-mummify? "Wow, what the hell was this body shot up with that's causing it to decay like this? Weird." (assuming their response isn't simply "that freezer we keep the bodies in to keep them from rotting is sure doing its job as expected, isn't it?")

QuoteWith a vampire body, they don't progressively decay - which is a dead giveaway. :-) Further, take the stake out and give the vampire some blood and they'll recover, which is demonstrably different than human corpses.

These arguments have an air of "great idea, but who's going to put the bell on the cat" about them.  What are the logistics surrounding these tests?  How did the vampire get in this situation?

Seriously, your statement suggests that you have a staked vampire body, a doctor who believes it's a vampire already, and then performs a number of tests to prove this, in a context where the resultant proof (Alien Autopsy video, anyone?) will be taken seriously by anyone.

Doing it in front of James Randi might get you somewhere, but the rest is basically UFO abductee conference level of evidence.

QuoteIn an RPG, there is the tension that a PC may want to blow the lid off the hiddenness of the supernatural, and in all of the RPG settings that I've seen, doing so is well within their power.

As I said before, most gamers tend to wildly overestimate how reliable science and technology really are, and how resistant the world is to changes in the status quo. And again, this presumes that there's no active opposition to any of this, by either a community of supernatural beings themselves or other groups.

For VtM specifically, I have yet to see a live campaign where the Masquerade is enforced anywhere near as strictly as the setting outright says it is.  I say without exaggeration that every single Neonate I've ever seen played would have been exterminated by their own Sire within weeks of being Embraced were the games being run according to the setting as written.

Quote from: Sergeant Brother;974172What are the preferences of the people here and why?

Mine is probably Masquerade style.

Quote from: jhkim;975230...in an RPG, there is the tension that a PC may want to blow the lid off the hiddenness of the supernatural, and in all of the RPG settings that I've seen, doing so is well within their power.

Within their power to say, "Everybody listen! Vampires... are REAL." It would be well within the power of the GM to simply have everyone who heard the guy laugh it off. If the vampire whistleblower kept it up, he's likely to push friends and family away. Eventually he ends up homeless, penniless, and paranoid. All the while the vampires would simply ignore him knowing the end result is better than the lid-blower-offer mysteriously disappearing.

Quote from: daniel_ream;975294These arguments have an air of "great idea, but who's going to put the bell on the cat" about them.  What are the logistics surrounding these tests?  How did the vampire get in this situation?

Seriously, your statement suggests that you have a staked vampire body, a doctor who believes it's a vampire already, and then performs a number of tests to prove this, in a context where the resultant proof (Alien Autopsy video, anyone?) will be taken seriously by anyone.

Doing it in front of James Randi might get you somewhere, but the rest is basically UFO abductee conference level of evidence.

In the case I was describing, I'm assuming that hunters have successfully staked a vampire, and successfully carried away the body to a safe location. That's pretty much it. From there, they can bring the body to a medical professional with the intent of proving some features of vampires. I'm also assuming that the hunters don't rave like loons or make crazed demands, but they do privately understand that it is a vampire and can safely guide the investigator to the unusual features of the body. in other words, the hunters aren't raving "OMG! We has a *vampire* and you has to believe us!" Rather, they are behaving rationally and allowing the evidence to speak for itself.  

The body doesn't progressively decay at all over time, even in hot and wet conditions. More critically, the body recovers completely when the stake is removed - to the point of eventually sitting up and moving around. These two features take some time to observe, but they are observable, repeatable, and undeniably beyond the realm of usual science.

Further, I'm not claiming that this is 100% guaranteed to work flawlessly. However, for the masquerade to be successful, this and all other possible scenarios have to have a 0% chance of succeeding. Heck, the original Vampire book had a storyline about someone who became a vampire and hated it, turning against vampire kind and killing his sire. Given a cooperative vampire against their own kind, the possible scenarios are enormously multiplied.

Quote from: daniel_ream;975294As I said before, most gamers tend to wildly overestimate how reliable science and technology really are, and how resistant the world is to changes in the status quo. And again, this presumes that there's no active opposition to any of this, by either a community of supernatural beings themselves or other groups.

It doesn't take much science and technology at all to say that if something that is verifiably a corpse with a stake through its heart, and later sits up, then there is something supernatural going on. Further, I'm not assuming that there is no active opposition to this - I specifically described about active opposition. Conversely, I think you're assuming that any active opposition inherently means that they will be 100% successful. If the active opposition is 95% successful instead, it just means there is a delay before the masquerade is blow open.

Quote from: daniel_ream;975294For VtM specifically, I have yet to see a live campaign where the Masquerade is enforced anywhere near as strictly as the setting outright says it is.  I say without exaggeration that every single Neonate I've ever seen played would have been exterminated by their own Sire within weeks of being Embraced were the games being run according to the setting as written.

That sounds like the problem I'm talking about. It's possible that all vampires could cooperate in order to strictly enforce the masquerade, but that doesn't sound like good gaming material. However, also by the source material, there are plenty of vampires who are careless, given to factional fighting, and/or simply crazy - and there are thousands of vampires around. Given that, it seems like someone somewhere is going to screw up, rebel, or otherwise fail.

Quote from: jhkim;975320From there, they can bring the body to a medical professional with the intent of proving some features of vampires. I'm also assuming that the hunters don't rave like loons or make crazed demands, but they do privately understand that it is a vampire and can safely guide the investigator to the unusual features of the body.

John.

Seriously.

Do you know any doctors?  Or forensic pathologists?

These people are licensed, and have spent significant time and money building their careers.

Tell me - forget vampires for a moment - if a group of random people brought a perfectly normal human corpse to a doctor or pathologist with a pointed stick penetrating the rib cage, what makes you think that medical professional's first reaction isn't going to be "OMG WHERE DID YOU GET THIS BODY DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MUCH TROUBLE YOU'RE IN".  There are laws about desecrating a body, and that's assuming you can convince the doctor that you didn't just commit first-degree murder, since the corpse is clearly fresh.  100% of the time, any reputable doctor is going to call the police on you.  Period.

Quote"OMG! We has a *vampire* and you has to believe us!" Rather, they are behaving rationally and allowing the evidence to speak for itself.  

The second you walked in the door with a transfixed human body with no provenance, you left rationality way behind.

QuoteThe body doesn't progressively decay at all over time, even in hot and wet conditions.

"We want you to put this body in the backyard and watch it not decay."
"What the hell is wrong with you people?  I'm calling the police right now."

QuoteMore critically, the body recovers completely when the stake is removed - to the point of eventually sitting up and moving around. These two features take some time to observe, but they are observable, repeatable, and undeniably beyond the realm of usual science.

Assuming the vampire doesn't simply think "hmmm, I'm in a universe where any semblance of life in an animated corpse requires conscious effort by the vampire.  Also healing.  I'll just not do that, then."

QuoteIt doesn't take much science and technology at all to say that if something that is verifiably a corpse with a stake through its heart, and later sits up,

"Nobody here but us corpses!"

QuoteThat sounds like the problem I'm talking about. It's possible that all vampires could cooperate in order to strictly enforce the masquerade, but that doesn't sound like good gaming material.

There are lots of settings where if the players did things that made sense, the game would screech to a halt ("I'm not going into a dank hole in the ground and fighting hideous monsters because there _might_ be treasure down there!! Fuck that, I'm joining the militia.  They pay in silver and you get three hots and a cot.")  To some extent, one has to suspend one's disbelief.  On the other hand, "there are well-established social structures that maintain the status quo, you are not the first person to try disrupting them, and there will be severe consequences if you try" is not exactly railroading.  It's certainly true that many players are contrarian little shits who will immediately fixate on the one or two things you've said are impossible in the setting and then go try to prove you wrong solely for the lulz, but then the original Ghostbusters RPG had the best response to that particular player tactic.  The players either want to play the game you've pitched, or they don't, and if they're going to try to upend your premise just for the hell of it it's better to get that sorted away from the table.

Not to mention that the mythology is tied to the Curse of Caine (and Kuei Jin to the curse of August Personage of Jade), y'know "Cursed by God." So the rules of interference just exploded by a magnitude. Just like the Veil (Wraith), the Mists (Changeling), the genetic terror whose name I forgot (Werewolf), etc. Each of these splatted games has a preternatural cause hiding them. Vampires are just abused because they have to do most of the work hiding themselves from persecution.

To Daniel -

Quote from: daniel_ream;975511There are lots of settings where if the players did things that made sense, the game would screech to a halt ("I'm not going into a dank hole in the ground and fighting hideous monsters because there _might_ be treasure down there!! Fuck that, I'm joining the militia.  They pay in silver and you get three hots and a cot.")  To some extent, one has to suspend one's disbelief.

Sure. And I'm OK with suspending disbelief and playing WoD or other hidden-supernatural type settings. However, if I have more options, then I prefer to have there be a little more reasons - like giving better reasons for the PCs to go into dungeons rather than "just because".

Quote from: daniel_ream;975511On the other hand, "there are well-established social structures that maintain the status quo, you are not the first person to try disrupting them, and there will be severe consequences if you try" is not exactly railroading.  It's certainly true that many players are contrarian little shits who will immediately fixate on the one or two things you've said are impossible in the setting and then go try to prove you wrong solely for the lulz, but then the original Ghostbusters RPG had the best response to that particular player tactic.  The players either want to play the game you've pitched, or they don't, and if they're going to try to upend your premise just for the hell of it it's better to get that sorted away from the table.

But it's not universally true that the PCs always have to maintain the status quo or be contrarian little shits. If I am GM, I would be happy for the PCs to break the masquerade. As I noted previously, I tend to prefer settings where the supernatural can be and is revealed, rather than railroad.

People can run their games however they like. I'm expressing my preference, and I'm arguing that it's pretty believable.

Quote from: daniel_ream;975511Tell me - forget vampires for a moment - if a group of random people brought a perfectly normal human corpse to a doctor or pathologist with a pointed stick penetrating the rib cage, what makes you think that medical professional's first reaction isn't going to be "OMG WHERE DID YOU GET THIS BODY DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MUCH TROUBLE YOU'RE IN".  There are laws about desecrating a body, and that's assuming you can convince the doctor that you didn't just commit first-degree murder, since the corpse is clearly fresh.  100% of the time, any reputable doctor is going to call the police on you.  Period.
(...)
The second you walked in the door with a transfixed human body with no provenance, you left rationality way behind.
(...)
"We want you to put this body in the backyard and watch it not decay."

Daniel, you keep assuming that stupidest possible behavior. Here you're interpreting that the hunters barge into a doctor's office carrying a transfixed body as random strangers with no explanation, and then after that try to convince the doctor to watch it decay. I agree that's stupid - and that is exactly what I was saying not to do.

The best approach will depend on who the hunters are and what their skills and background are, along with who they're trying to contact. If I had to come up with a single hypothetical, here's one:

1) Look up a rural doctor's home.
2) Place the body in a wilderness close to that home where it would clearly decay, like in a muddy, buggy spot. Leave it there for a few days to establish time, and put a tracking device on it.
3) Go to the doctor's house, and pretend to have spotted the body hiking - but that you think it's a fake body that is a practical joke.
4) Offer to pay the doctor to confirm that it's a hoax.
5) They check it out and find it is a bizarre anomaly. Document everything and ask to call in someone else to confirm. Also call the police and have them check it out.

Calling in the police isn't a problem. The more public and respectable the people dealing with the body, the harder it is to cover up later. Finding a body isn't a crime, and doesn't make one a suspect without a motive. Once the stake is taken out in autopsy, the vampire will try to escape. By arranging a lot of attention on the body, this will make a plenty of noise - and good chance that by being prepared, the hunters can arrange plenty of attention on it.

Vampires aren't conscious during torpor, so they don't know what is going on. Upon reviving, they won't know where they are or what is going on, so it is pretty sensible for them to escape.

Again, I'm not saying that this is inherently foolproof 100% guarantee - but for the masquerade to be successful, this sort of thing must be 100% guaranteed to *never* happen.

Quote from: jhkim;975569but for the masquerade to be successful, this sort of thing must be 100% guaranteed to *never* happen.

John, the Weekly World News is chock to the brim every issue with events detailing the Masquerade failing, why aren't you out in the streets with stake and holy water?  Surely you're not saying they're fake?  How many youtube videos do you have to watch before you believe in the lizardman conspiracy?

"Damn shame the Sheriff and Doc Smith both dying in that propane explosion." "Yeah, they were good men.  What about them High School kids stealing that corpse as a prank? I don't understand young people these days."

The Masquerade is violated all the damn time.  It's just cleaned up by supernaturals using supernatural powers, creating a lot of accidents and spending a lot of money.  Remember, at this point, they don't even have to cover it up, they just have to shift evidence enough so that one of the other conspiracies they know is bullshit claims it and the disbelief of normals is guaranteed.  Instead of "red eyes and vampire fangs", mindfuck it into "snake eyes and forked tongue"...done.

A vampire can do whatever the hell he wants to anyone, and as long as he makes them believe it was a Grey Alien, or actually makes himself look like one, jobs a good-un'.

To recap - I am fine with suspending disbelief in the hidden supernatural, like with other outrageous elements like spandex-clad superheroes or carefully-crafted adventurer-ready dungeons. However, I still would argue that these things aren't really sensible, and I do like settings where the supernatural is made public.

In the real world, if there is common blatant physical evidence that confirms the supernatural, then it would become public fairly quickly. The reason why people dismiss things like UFOs and Bigfoot is that those things *aren't real*, and thus have no convincing evidence for them.

Specifically for the original Vampire: The Masquerade - there isn't a worldwide supernatural effect that people ignore vampires. A vampire body in torpor is distinct in a number of ways from an ordinary corpse. It doesn't decay; it can recover and wake up; and one more that I forgot previously - it burns up in sunlight.

daniel_ream - As far as I can tell, you are arguing that there is almost no way a medical professional could be convinced that the body is out of the ordinary. I argue that this is only based on the assuming idiotic behavior on the part of those with the body, and that approached intelligently, a medical professional would be convinced.


CRKrueger - You seem to be arguing differently, that the vampire in torpor would be convincing evidence to those testing it, but that other vampires are guaranteed to be able to cover it up. Regarding my example scenario, you say -

Quote from: CRKrueger;976099"Damn shame the Sheriff and Doc Smith both dying in that propane explosion." "Yeah, they were good men.  What about them High School kids stealing that corpse as a prank? I don't understand young people these days."

The Masquerade is violated all the damn time.  It's just cleaned up by supernaturals using supernatural powers, creating a lot of accidents and spending a lot of money.  Remember, at this point, they don't even have to cover it up, they just have to shift evidence enough so that one of the other conspiracies they know is bullshit claims it and the disbelief of normals is guaranteed.  Instead of "red eyes and vampire fangs", mindfuck it into "snake eyes and forked tongue"...done.

A vampire can do whatever the hell he wants to anyone, and as long as he makes them believe it was a Grey Alien, or actually makes himself look like one, jobs a good-un'.

First of all, this implies that there are cleanup crews standing by to respond anywhere within hours to any remote rural location, and thoroughly deal with anyone there. If the vampires actually have that sort of reach and organization, then why don't they use that overwhelming force and organization for the other problems they face? Within the other setting material, they seem very disorganized when dealing with other internal and external problems.

Also, I don't believe your point about aliens. You imply that anyone can just put on an alien mask and then have free reign to kill whoever they like, and officials will disbelieve it and drop their investigation. I think in reality, there will still be an investigation, and the investigators will find evidence of foul play and keep digging.

Mind you, I've had a lot of fun in my friend Russell's game, where the PCs are a mix of yellow journalists (for a parallel to the Weekly World News) and fringe academics. However, it's played for comedy and not intended to imply that things would really be like that in the real world. The point is the opposite - the comedy is in the ridiculousness of the situations.

Quote from: jhkim;974686However, in most of these supernatural settings, there is plenty of tangible evidence of the supernatural that the PCs can get their hands on. A staked vampire corpse might pass for normal at a casual glance, but a medical examination will easily reveal differences - most obviously the fact that it doesn't decompose.

For that matter, many games have options for the PCs themselves to have verifiable supernatural abilities. I can ignore this side of things, but it can be a strain at times.

1: Alot of vamps tend to decompose rather fast when staked. Or revert to human.

2: And often theres a reason to not reveal those powers to the public. Such as fear of being snatched by the government. Fear of witch hunts. Paranoia. Fear of other forces taking notice of you that you really dont want doing that. Or you dont want people knowing you've been blasting what look like street bums with your mind magic because that may still count as manslaughter.

Others will just get dismissed as some sort of scam, show, or whatever else makes more sense.

Or why not assume that at least some of this stuff is known. Its just not known by the general public the full extent? They might be aware some people have, or at least claim to have paranormal powers. But may not be aware that things like dimensional beings exist. They will call on people to help deal with these supernaturals when the police fail. Or the cops may call on them themselves.

And theres still the problem of proving it. The effects might not show on camera. Or might elude medical examination even. An autopsy wont show that George was under the curse of the Swamp Monster. Just that he contracted some weird fungal infection. And so on. Or say you get on TV claiming you can cast fireball. Play with what happens next and the aftermath. That can be an adventure all on its own.

The masquerade lasts only as long as you can successfully keep some moron from revealing it in a way that cant be dismissed. And assume theres people or things with the ability and desire to make sure it doesnt go fully public. Using anything from mind editing to murder to cover up.

Flammo the Great goes on TV to show off his amazing pyrokinesis. A day later the studio is burnt down and Pyro has either gone missing or is now on the run as theres evidence he used hidden flame throwers to make the fire and that he caused this blaze that just happened to kill some witnesses.

Or maybee the public believes it? Cue hysteria and witch hunts to deal with these "dangerous elements".

Quote from: jhkim;976243First of all, this implies that there are cleanup crews standing by to respond anywhere within hours to any remote rural location, and thoroughly deal with anyone there. If the vampires actually have that sort of reach and organization, then why don't they use that overwhelming force and organization for the other problems they face? Within the other setting material, they seem very disorganized when dealing with other internal and external problems.

Who said hours?  Doc Smith isn't going to convince himself of the supernatural by running every test he knows how, pick up the phone and get on Oprah all in the same night.  It'll probably take him two weeks to get the basic lab results back let alone the weird shit.  Even if Doc Smith is convinced, who the hell is going to believe him?  A reporter from Weekly World News might show up, but chances are, Doc Smith will get a visit from a vampire before he gets one from the head of the C.D.C.

Quote from: jhkim;976243Also, I don't believe your point about aliens. You imply that anyone can just put on an alien mask and then have free reign to kill whoever they like, and officials will disbelieve it and drop their investigation. I think in reality, there will still be an investigation, and the investigators will find evidence of foul play and keep digging.

Reading is fundamental.  If you read my example, the whole point was getting the person to believe it was aliens that did whatever to them.  Then they'll tell people it was aliens, then funny farm.  That takes more than a mask, that takes vampiric disciplines.  Lucky for vampires, they have them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;976306Who said hours?  Doc Smith isn't going to convince himself of the supernatural by running every test he knows how, pick up the phone and get on Oprah all in the same night.  It'll probably take him two weeks to get the basic lab results back let alone the weird shit.  Even if Doc Smith is convinced, who the hell is going to believe him?  A reporter from Weekly World News might show up, but chances are, Doc Smith will get a visit from a vampire before he gets one from the head of the C.D.C.

If it's been two weeks, then dozens of people will have seen the evidence for themselves, and hundreds of scattered people will know about it, if not thousands. Remember the evidence is convincingly unnatural without fancy lab tests - the lab tests will be to try to find an explanation. The doctor will have gotten a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th opinion from the towns nearby - plus the police and a bunch of other curious folk will have seen. It being bizarre local news, then they'll tell their families, and so forth. There will be pictures and videos sent around. I agree that the head of the CDC might not show up before vampires, but at that point, there is no use to making just the initial doctor disappear.

And this is just with one vampire body. Maybe the vampires can successfully cover up this one case - but given a population of thousands of vampires and a significant number of hunters, there are a ton more possibilities.

Quote from: CRKrueger;976306Reading is fundamental.  If you read my example, the whole point was getting the person to believe it was aliens that did whatever to them.  Then they'll tell people it was aliens, then funny farm.  That takes more than a mask, that takes vampiric disciplines.  Lucky for vampires, they have them.

It doesn't take vampiric disciplines for someone to say there were aliens. Plenty of people actually believe in aliens and claim to have seen them even in the real world. My point is that even if there is a witness who claims it was aliens, that just means that officials will discount that one witness' testimony. It doesn't mean that they'll stop investigating a person's death.

Your premise seems to be that seemingly rational people are actually irrational about aliens - such that they'll blatantly ignore real-world evidence if one person claims it is aliens. In the real world, though, people don't believe in aliens, vampires, or Bigfoot not because of irrational dismissal - but rather because there isn't convincing evidence of them. If there was convincing evidence, then rational people would believe in them.

Quote from: Omega;976301Or why not assume that at least some of this stuff is known. Its just not known by the general public the full extent? They might be aware some people have, or at least claim to have paranormal powers. But may not be aware that things like dimensional beings exist. They will call on people to help deal with these supernaturals when the police fail. Or the cops may call on them themselves.

And theres still the problem of proving it. The effects might not show on camera. Or might elude medical examination even. An autopsy wont show that George was under the curse of the Swamp Monster. Just that he contracted some weird fungal infection. And so on. Or say you get on TV claiming you can cast fireball. Play with what happens next and the aftermath. That can be an adventure all on its own.

I absolutely agree that it can be fun to have some stuff (but not all) to be known, and/or fun to have the challenge of publicizing be an adventure (or series of adventures) for the PCs. In game terms, I feel like it could be more fun to allow PCs the choice to go public - rather than the GM wanting metagame to maintain the status quo of secrecy.

In terms of the real world, there are some people who feel that vital information really should be kept secret from the masses, because they'd just panic - and thus it's better for an elite to quietly handle these things for them - i.e. the government, self-appointed guardians, or whoever. That's the theme of a bunch of stories, but it grates on my understanding and opinion of how things work in the real world. I don't think that elite guardians are a good idea, or that they have a great track record, and people would be rightfully angry to be kept in the dark.

Wow, you guys still talking about how to expose vampires in RL?