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I need to pick up Masks of Nyarlathotep. Does anyone know if the 2010 edition is much different from the earlier versions?

As far as I know, you just want to be sure to get the one titled "Complete Masks of Nyarlathotep". That's the one that includes the Australia chapter. That should be easy to do because I don't think the truncated version has been reprinted in a very long time.

There are reports of an updated version for 7th edition that includes a new "prequel" chapter set in Peru (it allows the investigators to establish a history with the ill fated Jackson Elias).

I have know idea when it will become available, though.

Thanks Dimitrios. This is helpful.

Be sure to track down the recent Masks of Nyarlathotep Companion. While not essentially, it's got a huge amount of stuff to help actually run it.

The new 7E Masks of Nyarlathotep could drop any day now in PDF. The last I heard (about a month ago) it was a few weeks from being done. Hard copies should follow a few months after the PDF release. I don't know too many specifics, but notably the page count has increased significantly over past versions and the plan was for MoN to be separated into two books that came in a slipcase. I don't know if that's still what's happening as that was what I read several months ago.

I suspect that hard copies of 7e Masks will be available by GenCon but count back three months and the pdf should drop about then. AFAIK it will include a lot of the material from the Masks Companion although a new intro adventure to introduce a major NPC via a trip to Peru is included in place pf whatever is set out in the Companion.

The one I always ran was the Complete one. It's got everything you need.

The 7e one, when it comes out, will likely not be compatible with earlier editions, since 7e is the only edition to not be compatible.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037008The 7e one, when it comes out, will likely not be compatible with earlier editions, since 7e is the only edition to not be compatible.

Maybe this question belongs in the other CoC thread, but did they really break backwards compatibility? Following WotC over the cliff like that seems insane. I thought the main thing for converting old material was multiplying the ability scores by 5 (or something). Disclaimer: I don't own 7e, so this is a genuine question.

Not any different to my knowledge. The 2010 edition of MoN is just a reprint of the 1996 edition.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1037065Maybe this question belongs in the other CoC thread, but did they really break backwards compatibility? Following WotC over the cliff like that seems insane. I thought the main thing for converting old material was multiplying the ability scores by 5 (or something). Disclaimer: I don't own 7e, so this is a genuine question.

Stat-wise, that's pretty much it.  Divide the stats by 5 to get the original range.  Everything else either touched on details in creating characters, or touched on how skills can be used (luck, second chance, advantage/disadvantage).

Quote from: John Scott;1037088Not any different to my knowledge. The 2010 edition of MoN is just a reprint of the 1996 edition.

This as the one I ended up going with.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037008The one I always ran was the Complete one. It's got everything you need.

The 7e one, when it comes out, will likely not be compatible with earlier editions, since 7e is the only edition to not be compatible.

Backwards compatibility has always been the thing I liked about Cthulhu (at least Chaosium Cthulhu). Hopefully they keep the older editions in print.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1037118Backwards compatibility has always been the thing I liked about Cthulhu (at least Chaosium Cthulhu). Hopefully they keep the older editions in print.

Yeah, backward compatibility was genius. This is a really shitty call on their part.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037465Yeah, backward compatibility was genius. This is a really shitty call on their part.

How is "Divide by 5 or multiply by 5" a shitty call on their part?

Quote from: jcfiala;1037488How is "Divide by 5 or multiply by 5" a shitty call on their part?

It's a meaningless change.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037656It's a meaningless change.

Are you having trouble with your memory?

You said:

Quote from: RPGPunditYeah, backward compatibility was genius. This is a really shitty call on their part.

Which suggests that the new edition is not backwards compatible.  Now you're saying it's a meaningless change, which implies it is backwards compatible.

Choose a side - is 7th edition backwards compatible or not?

The layout for the new edition of Masks of Nyarlathotep is over 95% complete, with only our final quality reviews remaining. Due to an increase in the size of the campaign and the additional background provided, it will be sold as a slipcase set of 2 hardcover books and a handout pack. It is very comparable in size to the 7th edition slipcase set we produced. The two books containing the complete campaign will be 384 pages and 288 pages in length (we would have loved one book, but the page count was too high to avoid potential binding problems.) The player handouts pack is also sizable, which is one of the biggest differences between this edition and all pervious editions of Masks.

As for the 7th edition Call of Cthulhu rules being backwards compatible, in general, we describe it as being backwards compatible. Converting older material is neither difficult nor time consuming. Ultimately, it is up to you to decide how backwards compatible it is. If you are interested in seeing what has changed, here's a link to the free PDF containing 6 pages of conversion notes and examples: https://www.chaosium.com/content/FreePDFs/CoC%207/CHA23135-Conv%20-%20Call%20of%20Cthulhu%207th%20Edition%20Conversion%20Guidelines.pdf

Quote from: jcfiala;1037693Are you having trouble with your memory?

You said:



Which suggests that the new edition is not backwards compatible.  Now you're saying it's a meaningless change, which implies it is backwards compatible.

Choose a side - is 7th edition backwards compatible or not?

From what I heard, that was NOT the only change. There was also change in the way investigations are handled.  Was that not true?

Also, that's still not compatible without adjustment, however small.

Quote from: rmeints;1037807The layout for the new edition of Masks of Nyarlathotep is over 95% complete, with only our final quality reviews remaining. Due to an increase in the size of the campaign and the additional background provided, it will be sold as a slipcase set of 2 hardcover books and a handout pack. It is very comparable in size to the 7th edition slipcase set we produced. The two books containing the complete campaign will be 384 pages and 288 pages in length (we would have loved one book, but the page count was too high to avoid potential binding problems.) The player handouts pack is also sizable, which is one of the biggest differences between this edition and all pervious editions of Masks.

As for the 7th edition Call of Cthulhu rules being backwards compatible, in general, we describe it as being backwards compatible. Converting older material is neither difficult nor time consuming. Ultimately, it is up to you to decide how backwards compatible it is. If you are interested in seeing what has changed, here's a link to the free PDF containing 6 pages of conversion notes and examples: https://www.chaosium.com/content/FreePDFs/CoC%207/CHA23135-Conv%20-%20Call%20of%20Cthulhu%207th%20Edition%20Conversion%20Guidelines.pdf

I appreciate very much your comment here, and welcome to theRPGsite!

I'm betting you aren't interested in getting into a debate here about compatibility, and I won't impose one on you.

Instead, what I'd be curious to know is what new material is in the new edition of Masks.  Are there new locations? More material for the adventure itself?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038003I appreciate very much your comment here, and welcome to theRPGsite!

I'm betting you aren't interested in getting into a debate here about compatibility, and I won't impose one on you.

Instead, what I'd be curious to know is what new material is in the new edition of Masks.  Are there new locations? More material for the adventure itself?

Thank you for the welcome. I've been a reader here for a number of years, but I have seldom posted. While I love a good debate, I'd prefer to let each person decide how backwards compatible the 7th edition of Call of Cthulhu is for themselves. I personally view backwards compatibility as an important thing. I have no doubt that people will have widely differing beliefs on how much you can change a game before it is no longer backwards compatible for them. I will say this though, since the 7th edition came out we have received a lot of feedback on it from a lot of people. In general, the feedback and reviews have been fairly positive, especially from those that have given it a thorough run through at the game table. To make giving it a try as easy as possible we have a free PDF of the 7th edition Quickstart and a free PDF solo adventure on our website.

As for the new material that is in the new edition of Masks, here's a rundown:

The previous edition of Masks was 248 pages. The new edition is 672 pages. While the layout has been overhauled, the word count per page hasn't substantially changed.

A 44 page chapter with a "prologue" adventure set in darkest Peru has been added.
The New York adventure chapter increased from 27 pages to 78 pages, with 4 additional handouts.
The London adventure chapter increased from 33 pages to 116 pages, with 8 additional handouts.
The Egypt adventure chapter increased from 41 pages to 90 pages, with 2 additional handouts.
The Kenya adventure chapter increased from 30 pages to 64 pages, with 2 additional handouts.
The Australia adventure chapter increased from 39 pages to 70 pages, with 3 additional handouts.
The China adventure chapter increased from 42 pages to 100 pages, with 4 additional handouts.

Each chapter has additional scenario material, but I don't feel I should elaborate for fear of revealing potential spoilers.
There are clue diagrams to help the GM in each chapter.
There are more maps, better maps, and player map handouts.
There's more art, and more of it is in full color.
A number of the original handouts just said something like "photo of a ship" as opposed to now actually being a period photo of the ship.
Speaking of period (historical) photos, we've added lots more of them.
Throughout the book there is boxed text for how to run the adventure in "Pulp Cthulhu" style.
There is a 6 page Travel appendix.
There is a 9 page Spell appendix.
There is a 10 page Tome Appendix.
There is a 6 page Artifacts appendix.
Lastly, the index has been expanded from 2 pages to 9 pages because we added a lot more references to make it easier to find stuff.

Quote from: rmeints;1038084The previous edition of Masks was 248 pages. The new edition is 672 pages. While the layout has been overhauled, the word count per page hasn't substantially changed.

A 44 page chapter with a "prologue" adventure set in darkest Peru has been added.
The New York adventure chapter increased from 27 pages to 78 pages, with 4 additional handouts.
The London adventure chapter increased from 33 pages to 116 pages, with 8 additional handouts.
The Egypt adventure chapter increased from 41 pages to 90 pages, with 2 additional handouts.
The Kenya adventure chapter increased from 30 pages to 64 pages, with 2 additional handouts.
The Australia adventure chapter increased from 39 pages to 70 pages, with 3 additional handouts.
The China adventure chapter increased from 42 pages to 100 pages, with 4 additional handouts.

:eek: How long did it take to play through in the play test? The old version was already a big commitment if you wanted to get all the way through.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038002From what I heard, that was NOT the only change. There was also change in the way investigations are handled.  Was that not true?

Also, that's still not compatible without adjustment, however small.

Well, I don't know every new bit of the new rulebooks - I remember reading through them when they arrived as PDF, but I probably didn't read everything. :)  For instance, there's chase rules now where there wasn't before.  But having listened to the podcast of the group playing the Reign of Terror adventure (which is a 7th edition adventure), I didn't hear anything different from how you play a 6th edition game.  Sure, there were cases where folks pushed their luck and rolled something again, or used luck to pass a roll (although that was very sparing), but otherwise it just sounded like a normal investigation.

In my opinion, the games are similar enough between 6th and 7th that it should be easy enough to convert on the fly, but we won't know for sure what's changed until we compare the earlier text with the new edition.

Thanks a lot for that breakdown. I'm really looking forward to seeing the new content, especially the handouts and GM aids. I was already planning on getting the new edition of MoN since I have several players begging me to run them through the campaign, but it's nice to see just what I'll be getting into later this year. Though I have to say, that is going to be an intimidating amount of information to go through and I'm glad I've already run the campaign before so it won't all be new.

Quote from: rmeints;1038084Thank you for the welcome. I've been a reader here for a number of years, but I have seldom posted. While I love a good debate, I'd prefer to let each person decide how backwards compatible the 7th edition of Call of Cthulhu is for themselves. I personally view backwards compatibility as an important thing. I have no doubt that people will have widely differing beliefs on how much you can change a game before it is no longer backwards compatible for them. I will say this though, since the 7th edition came out we have received a lot of feedback on it from a lot of people. In general, the feedback and reviews have been fairly positive, especially from those that have given it a thorough run through at the game table. To make giving it a try as easy as possible we have a free PDF of the 7th edition Quickstart and a free PDF solo adventure on our website.

As for the new material that is in the new edition of Masks, here's a rundown:

The previous edition of Masks was 248 pages. The new edition is 672 pages. While the layout has been overhauled, the word count per page hasn't substantially changed.

A 44 page chapter with a "prologue" adventure set in darkest Peru has been added.
The New York adventure chapter increased from 27 pages to 78 pages, with 4 additional handouts.
The London adventure chapter increased from 33 pages to 116 pages, with 8 additional handouts.
The Egypt adventure chapter increased from 41 pages to 90 pages, with 2 additional handouts.
The Kenya adventure chapter increased from 30 pages to 64 pages, with 2 additional handouts.
The Australia adventure chapter increased from 39 pages to 70 pages, with 3 additional handouts.
The China adventure chapter increased from 42 pages to 100 pages, with 4 additional handouts.

Each chapter has additional scenario material, but I don't feel I should elaborate for fear of revealing potential spoilers.
There are clue diagrams to help the GM in each chapter.
There are more maps, better maps, and player map handouts.
There's more art, and more of it is in full color.
A number of the original handouts just said something like "photo of a ship" as opposed to now actually being a period photo of the ship.
Speaking of period (historical) photos, we've added lots more of them.
Throughout the book there is boxed text for how to run the adventure in "Pulp Cthulhu" style.
There is a 6 page Travel appendix.
There is a 9 page Spell appendix.
There is a 10 page Tome Appendix.
There is a 6 page Artifacts appendix.
Lastly, the index has been expanded from 2 pages to 9 pages because we added a lot more references to make it easier to find stuff.

OK, so that's a very interesting breakdown.  Here's a question: could this edition be effectively run through and completed by a group of PCs without them ever going to or doing anything not found in the earlier editions?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038189OK, so that's a very interesting breakdown.  Here's a question: could this edition be effectively run through and completed by a group of PCs without them ever going to or doing anything not found in the earlier editions?

Politely meant short answer: Basically, no.

The PCs will visit the same locations (the same core plot) as the older editions of the campaign. The new material is intertwined with the old material and is essentially inseparable although the players may (as they could always do) choose to not visit / participate in a particular location/plot point. The new material is not optional - it either deepens, corrects, adds layers to the original (e.g. some character details in the original have been changed for historical, representational, or plot purposes). The only exception to this is the optional Peru prologue chapter, which is a prologue but not a component of the core campaign.

I hope that helps.

Hey Rick, one quick question if I may:

I have a group of players who have only finished The Haunting under 5.6 edition CoC. I received the 7th edition books for my birthday, and am planning to convert them over to it.

Will they be experienced enough to tackle Masks of Nyarlathotep, or should they have more mileage before attempting it?

Thanks!

I'm not Rick but have been running CoC for many years and do a lot of CoC con games as well (CoC cmpaigns are very different from one-shot scenarios or con games). Doing a one shot of The Haunting no way is experienced enough to  successfully play Masks. However if they are experienced role players they will enjoy themselves until them die. Masks is more pulpy than many CoC scenarios and better suited to players who prefer that style but investigation savvy investigators will get a lot more out of it and survive longer than players who have very little experience of CoC investigation scenarios.

I'd suggest that they have at least another three or for scenarios, preferably using 7e if you are using the new Masks, under their belts before attempting Masks.

Quote from: rmeints;1038274The new material is not optional - it either deepens, corrects, adds layers to the original (e.g. some character details in the original have been changed for historical, representational, or plot purposes). The only exception to this is the optional Peru prologue chapter, which is a prologue but not a component of the core campaign.
I hope that helps.

There have been a number of discussions, on sites like RPG.net, about MoN being problematic, was anything changed to appease any of these people.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;1038541I'd suggest that they have at least another three or for scenarios, preferably using 7e if you are using the new Masks, under their belts before attempting Masks.

The joy of CoC is that there's *lots* of adventures out there that are really very good.  I ran some adventures from the Unspeakable Oath folks before I last ran Masks, and it was a fun start to things.  And apparently there's a prequel adventure that comes with the new Masks.

You may also want to go have a look at the Masks of Nyarlathotep Companion - which is a huge tome of expanding material on the original campaign.  Some of it may be replaced by material in the new printing, but I'm sure it's worth checking out.

Quote from: rmeints;1038084... The previous edition of Masks was 248 pages. The new edition is 672 pages. ...

Wow, that sounds like quite an effort!

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;1038541I'm not Rick but have been running CoC for many years and do a lot of CoC con games as well (CoC cmpaigns are very different from one-shot scenarios or con games). Doing a one shot of The Haunting no way is experienced enough to  successfully play Masks. However if they are experienced role players they will enjoy themselves until them die. Masks is more pulpy than many CoC scenarios and better suited to players who prefer that style but investigation savvy investigators will get a lot more out of it and survive longer than players who have very little experience of CoC investigation scenarios.

I'd suggest that they have at least another three or for scenarios, preferably using 7e if you are using the new Masks, under their belts before attempting Masks.

Awesome. Thanks for the advice!

One of the things that's a bit frustrating about games in the BRP system is that there's no quick and easy way to gauge relative survivability and power level (e.g. no character levels, no "number of careers" like Warhammer, no point total like GURPS or HERO, etc.). I believe Pete Nash once said he had run so much BRP that he could just judge at a glance; unfortunately I'm not as experienced yet, so I appreciate the feedback.

My players like the CoC investigations, but they also like pulp action, which (obviously) they haven't experienced yet. I'll plan to run some 7E scenarios to get them up to speed.

For those scenarios might I suggest some of the ones in The Things we Leave Behind from Stygian Fox. Ladybug is very good as is Hell in Texas. A Time to Harvest from Chaosium in pdf via their Cults of Chaos program is a good shorter campaign in six parts.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;1038661For those scenarios might I suggest some of the ones in The Things we Leave Behind from Stygian Fox. Ladybug is very good as is Hell in Texas. A Time to Harvest from Chaosium in pdf via their Cults of Chaos program is a good shorter campaign in six parts.

My investigators are based in Boston right now (one Parapsychologist, one Police Detective, and one Miscellaneous [Dilletante]) and they may not want to travel at first. Then again, I have to get them ready for world travel if I'm going to run Masks at some point. I'll have a talk with them and see what they think.

(I tend to run the game as scenarios, rather than open world.)

I'll check out the recommendations though. Thanks again!

Quote from: rmeints;1038274Politely meant short answer: Basically, no.

The PCs will visit the same locations (the same core plot) as the older editions of the campaign. The new material is intertwined with the old material and is essentially inseparable although the players may (as they could always do) choose to not visit / participate in a particular location/plot point. The new material is not optional - it either deepens, corrects, adds layers to the original (e.g. some character details in the original have been changed for historical, representational, or plot purposes). The only exception to this is the optional Peru prologue chapter, which is a prologue but not a component of the core campaign.

I hope that helps.

It certainly clarifies things. There were two ways you could have done this: the new material could have been entirely optional (like side-quests or filler), and I certainly think that would have been a less interesting choice, though safer for you.
On the other hand, making the new material into an essential part of the adventure is much trickier! It has to really blend in well, and of course the quality has to be as good as the old material!

It would be interesting to see if you succeeded at that.

Quote from: Atsuku Nare;1038480Hey Rick, one quick question if I may:

I have a group of players who have only finished The Haunting under 5.6 edition CoC. I received the 7th edition books for my birthday, and am planning to convert them over to it.

Will they be experienced enough to tackle Masks of Nyarlathotep, or should they have more mileage before attempting it?

Thanks!

They are easily experienced enough to tackle Masks of Nyarlathotep. I've run it for people with no Call of Cthulhu experience, and it was great. Assuming your players are willing to commit to playing long-term, it is a great place to start. You have a great hook to get any random group of PCs working together, and they start with a big pile of clues to follow.

The campaign runs better the less jaded your players have gotten to the genre. Just run with it. It's already a long campaign. There is no need to stretch the experience out by sticking a whole bunch of random adventures on the front.

As for the new edition, I'm skeptical about the idea of adding a new chapter on the front. The beginning of Masks of Nyarlathotep is a such a punchy beginning to a campaign. The players get some quick action and get presented with a lot of lined of investigation right away. Burying that great beginning behind an earlier chapter sounds questionable.

Quote from: Baulderstone;1039168... As for the new edition, I'm skeptical about the idea of adding a new chapter on the front. The beginning of Masks of Nyarlathotep is a such a punchy beginning to a campaign. The players get some quick action and get presented with a lot of lined of investigation right away. Burying that great beginning behind an earlier chapter sounds questionable.

I'm curious about that "prologue" chapter. It says it's optional and not part of the core campaign, which seems like an interesting approach but I wonder how that works - is it an mini-adventure for other PCs that somehow avoids giving spoilers if new players were to then run new PCs in the campaign? Is it meant to be run separately? Or not run at all - maybe it's just an account of an earlier episode?

An idea I think sounds fun but probably not what they mean, would be to run a prologue one-shot episode with different players, set before the campaign, and have the results of play and the players' notes/correspondence/actions end up as artifacts/clues/effects for the later campaign. That's one of the main things I like about running my own homebrew world for multiple parties - having the history of actual past play underlying the current campaign.

Quote from: Baulderstone;1039168As for the new edition, I'm skeptical about the idea of adding a new chapter on the front. The beginning of Masks of Nyarlathotep is a such a punchy beginning to a campaign. The players get some quick action and get presented with a lot of lined of investigation right away. Burying that great beginning behind an earlier chapter sounds questionable.

I'm trying not to spoil the campaign, but there's an NPC who draws the players into the campaign.  It's a conceit in previous printings that this is supposed to be an NPC who the characters trust and like.  All this preview episode does is help to establish this trust and like by featuring the NPC in an adventure.  I believe something similar was included in the Masks of N- Companion, which I have a copy of but haven't read yet.  As such, the adventure can be skipped if you really want to, I expect.

Quote from: jcfiala;1039227I'm trying not to spoil the campaign, but there's an NPC who draws the players into the campaign.  It's a conceit in previous printings that this is supposed to be an NPC who the characters trust and like.  All this preview episode does is help to establish this trust and like by featuring the NPC in an adventure.  I believe something similar was included in the Masks of N- Companion, which I have a copy of but haven't read yet.  As such, the adventure can be skipped if you really want to, I expect.

That might work if the adventure is free of the supernatural to keep the integrity of the NPC's background. It would have disadvantage of narrowing the PC backgrounds to people with previous adventures in Peru. As you say, it can be ignored. I've run the campaign multiple times, and I have always been impressed with how well first sessions go with MoN, so I am just skeptical of inventing an abstract "problem" with a classic campaign and deciding to fix it.

Trying to improve historical accuracy also seems a misguided goal. It's an extremely pulpy adventure that didn't pretend to be historically accurate at the time. It suggests to me that the people altering the campaign don't really get it.

Anyway, I hope it's good, and as long as the original remains available for sale, I guess it is fine either way.

Quote from: Atsuku Nare;1038480Hey Rick, one quick question if I may:

I have a group of players who have only finished The Haunting under 5.6 edition CoC. I received the 7th edition books for my birthday, and am planning to convert them over to it.

Will they be experienced enough to tackle Masks of Nyarlathotep, or should they have more mileage before attempting it?

Thanks!

I see no reason that most players fairly new to Call of Cthulhu would not be experienced enough to tackle Masks. If your players are new to roleplaying games in general then they may find the campaign a bit harder to get through at first, but that doesn't mean they couldn't tackle it as long as the GM isn't brand new to RPGs too. If you have doubts, there a numerous free scenarios for CoC available on the web you could run for a few sessions if you wish. Of course, you could run them through just the Peru Prologue adventure and see how they do with that.

Quote from: waltshumate;1038543There have been a number of discussions, on sites like RPG.net, about MoN being problematic, was anything changed to appease any of these people.

Previous editions of Masks did have some problematic issues with them, no doubt. This isn't unique to Masks. Most large scale RPG campaigns tend to have them to a greater or lesser degree. We at Chaosium value feedback on our games. That feedback could very possibly be used to improve future editions of that game. In short, we do revise our products when real flaws are reported. That said, I wouldn't characterize revising our products based on customer feedback as some form of appeasement. I'd characterize it as valuing customer feedback and a desire for product improvement.

Quote from: rmeints;1039258Previous editions of Masks did have some problematic issues with them, no doubt. This isn't unique to Masks. Most large scale RPG campaigns tend to have them to a greater or lesser degree. We at Chaosium value feedback on our games. That feedback could very possibly be used to improve future editions of that game. In short, we do revise our products when real flaws are reported. That said, I wouldn't characterize revising our products based on customer feedback as some form of appeasement. I'd characterize it as valuing customer feedback and a desire for product improvement.

I notice you didn't comment if something was actually changed.

Quote from: rmeints;1039254I see no reason that most players fairly new to Call of Cthulhu would not be experienced enough to tackle Masks. If your players are new to roleplaying games in general then they may find the campaign a bit harder to get through at first, but that doesn't mean they couldn't tackle it as long as the GM isn't brand new to RPGs too. If you have doubts, there a numerous free scenarios for CoC available on the web you could run for a few sessions if you wish. Of course, you could run them through just the Peru Prologue adventure and see how they do with that.

Excellent to hear! My group is very experienced with RPGs (I think we have something like 160 years of gaming all added up), but new to Call of Cthulhu. They did have a rocking good time with The Haunting, and have been chomping at me for more.

Masks of Nyarlathotep and Shadows of Yog-Sothoth seem to be CoC's super-campaigns (with Orient Express added now, as well). I was planning on letting the Investigators get eaten by R'lyeh, but instead I'll spring a couple more adventures on them and then hopefully the new Masks will be out.

Thanks again!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1039531I notice you didn't comment if something was actually changed.

That was not intentional. Many small details in the campaign have been modified to fix plot holes, inconsistencies, and other issues reported.

Let me expand on that just a bit, without hopefully sounding too petty, too trite, or attempting to grandstand.

We at the Chaosium have overhauled all manner of things within the company over the last 3 years. In some respects, almost everything.

We have seriously and intentionally "upped" our game. Our books are now all full color hardcover books. We pay more attention to art, editing, and layout. We have tried to communicate and connect more with the RPG community, which is our family. We listen. We respond. We pay our creatives on time and in full. We reach out to our critics and try to understand what they are telling us. We make mistakes. We are not perfect. We strive to have fun. We have always invested ourselves in our games, as many of you have. In the end, we only wish we had more time to talk with you all more.

Quote from: rmeints;1039683Let me expand on that just a bit, without hopefully sounding too petty, too trite, or attempting to grandstand.

We at the Chaosium have overhauled all manner of things within the company over the last 3 years. In some respects, almost everything.

We have seriously and intentionally "upped" our game. Our books are now all full color hardcover books. We pay more attention to art, editing, and layout. We have tried to communicate and connect more with the RPG community, which is our family. We listen. We respond. We pay our creatives on time and in full. We reach out to our critics and try to understand what they are telling us. We make mistakes. We are not perfect. We strive to have fun. We have always invested ourselves in our games, as many of you have. In the end, we only wish we had more time to talk with you all more.

Rick:  you've all done a great job with Chaosium, and it's wonderful to see the company back on track!

Allan.

Quote from: grodog;1039690Rick:  you've all done a great job with Chaosium, and it's wonderful to see the company back on track!

Allan.

Hear, hear!

Quote from: rmeints;1039681That was not intentional. Many small details in the campaign have been modified to fix plot holes, inconsistencies, and other issues reported.

But not to whitewash elements that certain ideological sectors of society have declared "offensive"?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1040016But not to whitewash elements that certain ideological sectors of society have declared "offensive"?

I can't say I know exactly what you are getting at, but the answer to what I believe you are asking is "no".

Quote from: rmeints;1040278I can't say I know exactly what you are getting at, but the answer to what I believe you are asking is "no".

Good to hear.

Quote from: rmeints;1040278I can't say I know exactly what you are getting at, but the answer to what I believe you are asking is "no".

Things like this:

QuoteMasks assault you with scores of two-dimensional NPCS, illogical motives (take for example the dancing girl Yalesha, who'se behaviour is so illogical we lost at least three seances trying to figure what she was up to - why would an unclad woman seek help from total strangers found in a bar, risking her life for noughts?) and excessive violence. Passing through an episode without massive shoot-outs (shoot the zombie, shoot the shantaks, etc.) is quite impossible. After three painful episodes of the most linear sort trying to find where ANOTHER cult was hidden by ANOTHER vile member of a stereotypical ethnic groups (this book suffering both from extreme cultural reductionnism and scores of the "little n*gger servant" colonial syndrome), we decided it was too much after stepping into a strange pyramid where any simpleton could conjure Nyarlathotep (with a so kitsch dialogue, you'd believe yourself in "The Mummy II") with a simple ligthting of a candle.

QuoteFor starters, most of us propably agree, that Lovecraft was a raving racist and this has heavily influenced his work. ("degenerate" people in many stories meaning not "mutant" but "Person of Color", harmful stereotypes all around, hidden implications of race-mixing being a horrific thing etc).

 And secondly, the campaign heavily borrows many of the themes of such stories, as well as from tales and movies in the vein of Indiana Jones, where we find simillar racism (There is a reason India banned Indiana Jones 2 for quite some time. The movie does not paint people from the region in a very good light).
.

QuoteNew York - A cult made up mostly of black Americans of African descent that uses its time for murder and bloody rituals, burried deep within Harlem and controled by what one could describe as a "stereotypical Voodoo priest" (another very harmful trope)

London - As above, with a bigger number of wealthy white individuals and corruption involved for a change.

Egypt - As above, but the culprits are not immigrants but natives, strongly suggesting the players to fear for every person they meet to be a cultist, continuing the "evil arab" trope from Indiana Jones & co.

Kenia - First we have evil men from India (the only people from this part of the world notably), then the completely mind-blowing masses of cultists at the mountain (again - all natives will be suspected) in a state of complete madness.

The side adventure "The Game Lodge" adds to the pile of problems with pygmy-like human-eating creatures.

Kenia is a racist mess :/

QuoteIncluding People of Color and people native to the countries where the action takes place brings a new perspective into the game. But beware that this can also lead to severe racism between investigators.

Make the non-black portion of the cult in New York much bigger, including more whites from the working class, but also some rich people interested in the occult. There was a huge following of occult themes in that time, with secret organizations and simillar groups being quite popular.

While leaving the center of worhip somewhere deep within Harlem makes sense (it is well hidden that way), let there be an unusual number of white peiple visiting compared to the rest of the neighborhood.

Take out the stereotypical evil voodoo priest

What we have in the Campaign is more reminiscent of a xenophopic nightmare made real, immigrants bringing with them an evil religion that seeks to destroy the good Americans. Nyarlatothep does not stop making people mad just because they are rich or white. Showing this blasphemous cult also attracting what one would call "good citizens" makes clear that nobody is safe from the horrors it brings. Do not make this "Horror at Red Hook 2.0".

QuoteDo not make it seems like most african tribes are wild barbaric cultists, except for a few enlightened ones. That is very lazy racism.
Don't make M'Weru into a walking stereotype. She is presented as a vile, manipulative evil woman that uses her powers to control a white man and helps create some pregnancy horror. This idea in itself is overly sexist and racist at the same time, and should be handled with care.
Obviously the amount of power she has in her cult could easily lead her to live as basically what is described above, but I think it serves the plot to give her some personality outside of "suductive evil witch". I'm not yet sure how to best accomplish this without changing major aspects of her.

Yeah, basically like that.

@51: That's why I'm not too worried about them making a Bowlderized version of MoN: I don't think it's practically possible. The only way to make it "unproblematic" by 2018 standards would be to write an entirely different campaign.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1042004@51: That's why I'm not too worried about them making a Bowlderized version of MoN: I don't think it's practically possible. The only way to make it "unproblematic" by 2018 standards would be to write an entirely different campaign.

Let's hope they realize that, and don't bother messing up a classic to satisfy the demands of some ideological fanatics.

Chaosium's ideological fanatics all gather round Glorantha. Don't go near the BRP Central site or you'll pass out at the grognardia and one-true-wayism on display.

Well this - http://www.hplhs.org/dartmon.php (http://www.hplhs.org/dartmon.php) - could be interesting. Apparently the H.P. Lovecraft Historical Society is adapting MoN as a radio drama. Their adaptation of Call of Cthulhu as a 20s era silent movie was excellent. I'll probably have to check this out.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1042942Well this - http://www.hplhs.org/dartmon.php (http://www.hplhs.org/dartmon.php) - could be interesting. Apparently the H.P. Lovecraft Historical Society is adapting MoN as a radio drama. Their adaptation of Call of Cthulhu as a 20s era silent movie was excellent. I'll probably have to check this out.

Thanks for sharing! :)

I'm really not sure if CoC is a game for people who can't handle Lovecraft's world views.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1043275I'm really not sure if CoC is a game for people who can't handle Lovecraft's world views.

Yeah, really.

So the answer is yes they did go for appeasement.

"In addition, the text has been revised to reduce stereotypical portrayals of differing ethnicities; cults recruit from those willing to serve, not necessarily on ethnic lines. Equally, women can be cultists too; the profiles for differing cultists do not assume they are all male."

Remove some stereotypes  and then add others such as the wrongfully accused African American war hero on death row and the fat white cop that put him there.

Quote from: waltshumate;1046846So the answer is yes they did go for appeasement.

"In addition, the text has been revised to reduce stereotypical portrayals of differing ethnicities; cults recruit from those willing to serve, not necessarily on ethnic lines. Equally, women can be cultists too; the profiles for differing cultists do not assume they are all male."

Remove some stereotypes  and then add others such as the wrongfully accused African American war hero on death row and the fat white cop that put him there.

Thankfully, I don't need a 666 page version of an already gigantic module. Plus, the classic version is readily available on Amazon. And you now gave me another reason to grab a copy as long as they are out there.

I don't know, this review - http://rlyehreviews.blogspot.com/2018/07/the-greatest-roleplaying-campaign-ever.html (http://rlyehreviews.blogspot.com/2018/07/the-greatest-roleplaying-campaign-ever.html) - makes the changes sound relatively minor. It doesn't sound like it's been given a total makeover into "MoN: tumblr edition".

Quote from: Dimitrios;1046892I don't know, this review - http://rlyehreviews.blogspot.com/2018/07/the-greatest-roleplaying-campaign-ever.html (http://rlyehreviews.blogspot.com/2018/07/the-greatest-roleplaying-campaign-ever.html) - makes the changes sound relatively minor. It doesn't sound like it's been given a total makeover into "MoN: tumblr edition".

With the brief look I have had of it so far there is a lot of moaning about about sterotypes and yet they added sterotypes, Elias Jackson is now African American and major npcs are gender bent.  So far it is a full on SJW rewrite. The next thing I am expecting to find is a transgender lesbian neo-pagan collective is behind the plot because they have prophesied the coming of Trump and the Investigators are expected to join them in destroying the world to prevent it.

FFS if they are going to these lengths why not just write  new campaign.

A nice run-down of the changes made for the new version of MoN, in response to my Qs about what changed relative to the MoN: Companion released last year.  On YSDC @ https://www.yog-sothoth.com/forums/topic/31451-masks-of-nyarlathotep-new-2018-edition/?do=findComment&comment=340562

Allan.

Quote from: rmeints;1039683We have seriously and intentionally "upped" our game. Our books are now all full color hardcover books. We pay more attention to art, editing, and layout.

This is not upping your game.
After nearly 40 years no one has realized that the glitz colour interior art does not help sales? It just jacks cost which reduces sales. Hardcovers are nice. But that is also another layer of glitz the buyer has to fork out for. And another barrier to purchase on top of the game no longer being backwards compatible. Which will come back to haunt you (wryly appropriate) later.

As for the new expanded module. Good work on taking the harder but more satisfying path of weaving in the new material in with the old rather than just making them little add-ons that have a tendency to feel tacked on instead of integrated.

Will the new version detail exactly what has been changed or added in the module? This could be useful to some.

And someone needs to reprint Gahan Wilson's marvelous review of Call of Cthulhu!
Still have this packed with the rest of my CoC books. :cool:
(http://www.philsp.com/data/images/r/rod_serlings_twilight_zone_198508.jpg)

Quote from: Omega;1046984This is not upping your game.
After nearly 40 years no one has realized that the glitz colour interior art does not help sales? It just jacks cost which reduces sales. Hardcovers are nice. But that is also another layer of glitz the buyer has to fork out for. And another barrier to purchase on top of the game no longer being backwards compatible. Which will come back to haunt you (wryly appropriate) later.

Like with most things, there are good ways to do colour hardcovers and there are bad ways. So far, the 7E Cthulhu line has a very clean and beautiful colour layout and evocative art. I myself am more of a b/w guy--I actually like grayscale the least out of all options--but I can be persuaded by colour done well.

The monetary argument is a weak one, IMHO. Doing colour today is not that expensive and if content is the sole factor in RPG books, we could play Masks with loose-leaf typewritten pages.

Quote from: grodog;1046983A nice run-down of the changes made for the new version of MoN, in response to my Qs about what changed relative to the MoN: Companion released last year.  On YSDC @ https://www.yog-sothoth.com/forums/topic/31451-masks-of-nyarlathotep-new-2018-edition/?do=findComment&comment=340562

Allan.

.>All NPCs revised to better reflect history and authenticity

Translation NPCs revised to keep the SJWs and Antifa fuckers happy.  Mike you and your mate Flicker really fucked up CoC.

I always considered Call of Cthulhu 7th edition a hack job I see that the new "improved" MoN for that edition is no exception.

Quote from: Omega;1046984the game no longer being backwards compatible

You don't actually believe that, do you?  Multiplying by 5 is too big a leap for you?

Sounds like I'd stick to the classic adventure.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1046990Like with most things, there are good ways to do colour hardcovers and there are bad ways. So far, the 7E Cthulhu line has a very clean and beautiful colour layout and evocative art. I myself am more of a b/w guy--I actually like grayscale the least out of all options--but I can be persuaded by colour done well.

The monetary argument is a weak one, IMHO. Doing colour today is not that expensive and if content is the sole factor in RPG books, we could play Masks with loose-leaf typewritten pages.

Unless a publisher is raping their artist then colour art is usually costs upwards of 10 times that of BW art. Ive had to foot the bill for this stuff.

Interior art does not sell a product. The cover and the theme sell the product. Good interior art sure helps after the purchase. But its never needed to be colour. This has been discussed ad nausium for decades now. And case in point the new edition costs 100$ for the two core books.

Back on topic.
How much effort does it really take to convert the new edition material to older ones?

Quote from: under_score;1047172You don't actually believe that, do you?  Multiplying by 5 is too big a leap for you?

No. Its not that big a leap. But its still a system that is different and needs more converting that prior ones did not. What was the point in the change other than to milk the fans? That is usually the only reason you do something like this that isnt some sort of system to system conversion.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1047389Sounds like I'd stick to the classic adventure.

I would not count it out yet. It really depends on the execution and presentation and just how onerous or not it is to convert it backwards if one so wanted.

Price point may be a factor too. looks like about 60$. Not including the 100$ for 7e of you plan to go 7e.

Quote from: Omega;1047391How much effort does it really take to convert the new edition material to older ones?

Divide the stats by a factor (5 I think?). That's about it. Though in-game even that doesn't matter.

Some alarmists on this forum really have exaggerated on the edition change hysteria. It's mostly the same game and highly backwards compatible to 1st ed.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1047405Divide the stats by a factor (5 I think?). That's about it. Though in-game even that doesn't matter.

Some alarmists on this forum really have exaggerated on the edition change hysteria. It's mostly the same game and highly backwards compatible to 1st ed.

Having played the new edition, I have to agree. It's almost entirely the same experience at the table, and I couldn't see anyone having an issue converting adventures.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1047405Divide the stats by a factor (5 I think?). That's about it. Though in-game even that doesn't matter.

Some alarmists on this forum really have exaggerated on the edition change hysteria. It's mostly the same game and highly backwards compatible to 1st ed.

So 7e just went full percentile? Considering I designed three RPGs using percentile and one of my favourite SF RPGs is percentile. Seems fine to me if that is the only big change?

What about weapons? They still using the old system or was that too upgraded to d10s?

Quote from: Omega;1047413What about weapons? They still using the old system or was that too upgraded to d10s?

I'm not sure the question here, as the old system had weapon skills percentile, same as any other skill, and that hasn't changed.  Damages haven't changed either.  The big thing they did change is to consolidate, so instead of having Fist, Grapple, Headbutt, and Kick, you've just got your Fighting Brawl skill.

I've run a couple adventures from Mansions of Madness and the NY and London sections of Masks all for 7e without having to take any prep for conversion.  It really is as simple as multiplying the attributes of NPCs and monsters.  And I feel like I use skill rolls for NPCs and monsters much more often than attribute checks, so even that didn't come up much.

Quote from: Omega;1047393I would not count it out yet. It really depends on the execution and presentation and just how onerous or not it is to convert it backwards if one so wanted.

Price point may be a factor too. looks like about 60$. Not including the 100$ for 7e of you plan to go 7e.

Yeah, but the problem here is that the original Masks is not some sub-par adventure that needed improvement. It's not even a competent adventure that can be made awesome with a bit more effort. Masks is one of the great masterpieces of adventure design, one that's often on "top 20 lists" of the greatest RPG adventures ever.

So why am I going to bother for a version that is promising something that will almost certainly fail to deliver (to "make it better" by having greedo shoot first, etc)?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1047850Yeah, but the problem here is that the original Masks is not some sub-par adventure that needed improvement. It's not even a competent adventure that can be made awesome with a bit more effort. Masks is one of the great masterpieces of adventure design, one that's often on "top 20 lists" of the greatest RPG adventures ever.

So why am I going to bother for a version that is promising something that will almost certainly fail to deliver (to "make it better" by having greedo shoot first, etc)?

Or a version cutting out Alec Guinness and inserting reshoots with Don Cheadle and a adding a first act sub plot about a wrongfully accused droid on death row and the fat white storm trooper that put him there.

Not a review. But an initial feel for the new edition. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7pU1H9wurs

I looked into it. It's pretty great.

It's a classic case of "more good stuff". If you want more Masks, as compared to a subjective interpretation of "better", it might just be for you.

But of course the old edition already was massive, so for me, it's a pass on the print version.

Quote from: under_score;1047442I'm not sure the question here, as the old system had weapon skills percentile, same as any other skill, and that hasn't changed.  Damages haven't changed either.  The big thing they did change is to consolidate, so instead of having Fist, Grapple, Headbutt, and Kick, you've just got your Fighting Brawl skill.

For example a weapon in 5e can do a d6 or a d3 damage. Moving it to percentile I should have said moving the weapons to all d10s. So a weapon might do a d10 or a d5 (1/2 d10) for example.

Quote from: Omega;1048037For example a weapon in 5e can do a d6 or a d3 damage. Moving it to percentile I should have said moving the weapons to all d10s. So a weapon might do a d10 or a d5 (1/2 d10) for example.

Weapon damages vary a lot, by type and range.  A knife is 1d4, a .45 is 1d10+2, a dynamite stick is 4d10.  A 12-gauge does 4d6/2d6/1d6 at short/medium/long range.  On critical hits, non-impaling weapons (blunt weapons and unarmed attacks) do max damage.  Impaling weapons (anything sharp or bullets) do max damage + a normal damage roll.

While attributes changed to a percentile, hit points remain the same, so the scale of damage hasn't changed really.  Wish I had my 6th edition book around to check more specific changes.  I've been playing 7e for about 3 years, so I may misremember some things in previous editions.

Quote from: waltshumate;1047929Or a version cutting out Alec Guinness and inserting reshoots with Don Cheadle and a adding a first act sub plot about a wrongfully accused droid on death row and the fat white storm trooper that put him there.

You're right. Christ, this isn't like Lucas fucking up the original trilogy with some unnecessary extra CGI and making Han shoot second. This is if Rian Johnson 'improved' the original trilogy by adding a bunch of SJW content.

Looks like more classics will be getting the SJW treatment.

"Investigations in Lovecraft Country

The individual stories in the initial Cthulhu Chronicles release form a larger campaign set in 1920s New England. Investigations in Lovecraft Country comprises several Call of Cthulhu scenarios well known to Chaosium fans, including Alone Against the Flames, Edge of Darkness and Dead Boarder"

I bought the pdf yesterday and started looking over it last night. At least so far, my impression is that fears that they butchered it in some misguided attempt to be "woke" are unfounded. In the New York chapter there's a crooked cop in the pay of the cult of the bloody tongue and a superfluous side scenario about a guy framed for some of the cult's activities. It doesn't clash with the existing material, and if it weren't for the fact that we're living in a cultural moment where shitting on anything that got any sort of acclaim in the past is all the rage in some circles (and so I'm paying extra close attention), I would barely have noticed the additions.

My main impression so far, though, is that it's a bit like the Extra Special 43rd Anniversary 19th Director's Cut Digitally Remastered For The Nteenth Time Now With An Exclusive Interview With The Caterer Who Brought Harrison Ford A Sandwich On The Set One Time Collector's Edition of Star Wars. Definitely a boutique item for people with money to spare rather than anything that was really called for. I'm at a stage where blowing $60 on an overpriced pdf if not an issue. But just like  plain dvd will give you the Star Wars experience just as well as an overstuffed collector's edition, I think any post 1996 printing of MoN will serve just as well as this version.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1048443I'm at a stage where blowing $60 on an overpriced pdf if not an issue. But just like  plain dvd will give you the Star Wars experience just as well as an overstuffed collector's edition, I think any post 1996 printing of MoN will serve just as well as this version.

Yeah all their new PDFs seem to be absurdly overpriced.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1048443I bought the pdf yesterday and started looking over it last night. At least so far, my impression is that fears that they butchered it in some misguided attempt to be "woke" are unfounded.
.

You need to clean your glasses.

Changing Jackson Elias is silly. When I start the campaign in a month or two, I'll be using the same character that I've used in previous runs through MoN as I don't care about Chaosium altering important NPCs to fill some sort of quota. Thankfully, keeping the old Elias is easy enough. I'm not sure about the other major NPC changes as I haven't looked into them yet. If they're interesting new characters, great. If they're just gender swaps much like the way new Elias was basically just a change from white to black, I'll be less impressed.

I'm still digesting the Peru chapter but I've looked ahead a bit. I don't mind the idea of the new plot in New York, but I am worried that it may make things run too long there at the start of everything. New York is huge now with a ton of characters. That's daunting to hit new Cthulhu players with early on. I'll likely use it but only if it looks to be worth the trouble of adding all the extra material.

Oh, and the art. I'm really torn on the art. I've seen some really great pieces so far, but some stuff (especially some character portraits) is a major no-go for me. Another big reason I'm sticking with the old Elias character is that the new portrait for him looks so goofy I actually laughed when I saw it.

Chaosium admits that they believe the original Masks was racist and is still racist despite the rewrite.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2635[/ATTACH]

Quote from: waltshumate;1048573Chaosium admits that they believe the original Masks was racist and is still racist despite the rewrite.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2635[/ATTACH]

It'd like history doesn't exist or something. The whole point of CoC is playing in the real world but with dark cults summoning demons. It's not a fantasy world whatsoever.

Quote from: waltshumate;1048573Chaosium admits that they believe the original Masks was racist and is still racist despite the rewrite.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2635[/ATTACH]

Sort of. I think it's mostly just her way of taking a shot at the book's critics, but without knowing exactly who she's referring to it's hard to say. Given some of what's been said in the past, though, I don't think anyone should be surprised that there were people working on the campaign that considered it "racist." Claims of racism and sexism get thrown around a lot, especially with games that are set in historical periods throughout real world history. It's a lose/lose situation. Either a game is racist/sexist/whateverist or people slam it for whitewashing history.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1048443My main impression so far, though, is that it's a bit like the Extra Special 43rd Anniversary 19th Director's Cut Digitally Remastered For The Nteenth Time Now With An Exclusive Interview With The Caterer Who Brought Harrison Ford A Sandwich On The Set One Time Collector's Edition of Star Wars. Definitely a boutique item for people with money to spare rather than anything that was really called for. I'm at a stage where blowing $60 on an overpriced pdf if not an issue. But just like  plain dvd will give you the Star Wars experience just as well as an overstuffed collector's edition, I think any post 1996 printing of MoN will serve just as well as this version.

Yeah, I definitely agree that the new edition is far from a necessary upgrade. It'll look nice on the shelf and adds a few bits here and there, but I don't see that it really adds much value over the previous edition. One of the stated goals with this version was compiling information and presenting it in a way to help Keepers run the campaign, but the books are so bloated and information is spread over so many pages that honestly I don't see how it'll be any easier to run than older editions.

Is it seriously $60 for a PDF?!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1048763Is it seriously $60 for a PDF?!

7e Masks and Orient Express are 60$ each for the PDFs
Original Masks PDF is 18$ for the PDF and others like Alone Against the Dark are like 7$ or so.

Quote from: waltshumate;1048573Chaosium admits that they believe the original Masks was racist and is still racist despite the rewrite.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2635[/ATTACH]

Do you have a source for this?

Quote from: Omega;10487727e Masks and Orient Express are 60$ each for the PDFs
Original Masks PDF is 18$ for the PDF and others like Alone Against the Dark are like 7$ or so.

That's just ridiculous.

Someone has to pay for the fancy artwork and snazzy layout. People don't work for free (or exposure) you know.

Quote from: Herne's Son;1048912Do you have a source for this?

That is the source it is a tweet from a Chaosium staffer.

Quote from: Herne's Son;1048912Do you have a source for this?

The Pulp genre was racist Masks was based on the pulp genre therefore Masks (before the rewrite) is racist. 19:30 seconds in.
http://blasphemoustomes.com/2018/06/26/episode-133-the-good-friends-try-on-masks-of-nyarlathotep/ (http://blasphemoustomes.com/2018/06/26/episode-133-the-good-friends-try-on-masks-of-nyarlathotep/)

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038002From what I heard, that was NOT the only change. There was also change in the way investigations are handled.  Was that not true?

Also, that's still not compatible without adjustment, however small.

AFAICT, the adjustments needed include basically the same or less math than converting some OSR adventures from ascending to descending AC:).
Or did the people who converted their OSR games from descending to ascending AC also pull a dick move that prevents TSR-era adventures from being used;)?

Quote from: rmeints;1039683Let me expand on that just a bit, without hopefully sounding too petty, too trite, or attempting to grandstand.

We at the Chaosium have overhauled all manner of things within the company over the last 3 years. In some respects, almost everything.

We have seriously and intentionally "upped" our game. Our books are now all full color hardcover books. We pay more attention to art, editing, and layout. We have tried to communicate and connect more with the RPG community, which is our family. We listen. We respond. We pay our creatives on time and in full. We reach out to our critics and try to understand what they are telling us. We make mistakes. We are not perfect. We strive to have fun. We have always invested ourselves in our games, as many of you have. In the end, we only wish we had more time to talk with you all more.

I can only commend the goal of your efforts.
I'm still divided on the execution, and some of the specific changes, but your intentions are definitely good ones. At least the changes to the combat chapter of CoC are a welcome thing in my book!
Going for full-on colour art and the associated price increase wasn't especially welcome, though. Especially since I'm trying to get more new people into the hobby (and yes, I'm not doing it via d100 system first, "skipping" the "D&D stage":D).

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1047405Divide the stats by a factor (5 I think?). That's about it. Though in-game even that doesn't matter.

Some alarmists on this forum really have exaggerated on the edition change hysteria. It's mostly the same game and highly backwards compatible to 1st ed.

That's what our CoC Referee said as well. I choose to believe him (especially since I'm not planning to but CoC7 any time soon).

Quote from: waltshumate;1048957That is the source it is a tweet from a Chaosium staffer.

Ah, gotcha. Didn't realize the person in the screen cap was a Chaosium wonk. I've not paid much attention to them at all over the last few years.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;1048956Someone has to pay for the fancy artwork and snazzy layout. People don't work for free (or exposure) you know.

None of which actually sell the PDF. But the buyer has to eat the cost of that glitz.

Quote from: Omega;1049023None of which actually sell the PDF. But the buyer has to eat the cost of that glitz.

I like the price about as much as you, and quite possibly less:).

But let's be fair and admit that there is a market for full-colour big, glitzy books. It's a business decision whether to publish product for it, for black-and-white big books, or for black-and-white small books.
And that decision is Chaosium's to make, based on economic logic. Not you, not me, it's their money, so they have to estimate the likely returns on the investment.

So, much as I personally dislike their current decision, because regretfully leads to prices that don't work for most people in my country, I can only hope it would work out for them;).

Quote from: AsenRG;1049034I like the price about as much as you, and quite possibly less:).

But let's be fair and admit that there is a market for full-colour big, glitzy books. It's a business decision whether to publish product for it, for black-and-white big books, or for black-and-white small books.
And that decision is Chaosium's to make, based on economic logic. Not you, not me, it's their money, so they have to estimate the likely returns on the investment.

So, much as I personally dislike their current decision, because regretfully leads to prices that don't work for most people in my country, I can only hope it would work out for them;).

Except the fact is the expensive as all hell glitz art inside doesnt sell the book, and it especially does not sell PDFs. This has been known since at least the late 90s.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;1048956Someone has to pay for the fancy artwork and snazzy layout. People don't work for free (or exposure) you know.

Yes, but that's what the print edition is for. PDFs don't have a real print cost.

Quote from: Omega;1049082Except the fact is the expensive as all hell glitz art inside doesnt sell the book, and it especially does not sell PDFs. This has been known since at least the late 90s.

Then it won't sell, they would have made a poor business decision, and would be punished by the market.
Your outrage at them daring to take the decision would still be inappropriate, though, unless you're a shareholder;).

Quote from: RPGPundit;1049444Yes, but that's what the print edition is for. PDFs don't have a real print cost.

So basically you are advocating for a plain no art, plain text game pdf being offered for really cheap as the standard for a role playing game.

Funny that you do not practice what you are attempting to tell everyone else what to do. I don't see the Dark Albion book being offered in a no-frills, no art plain text version for $5.

Sounds like you are merely posing as someone who advocates for cheap pdfs for all while exploiting the capitalist rpg book market for all it can bear.

Apparently it was the #1 seller on Drivethroughrpg for a while, so they seem to have got the price point right. As I said earlier, it's definitely a boutique item as opposed to something really needed, but it looks like it's a boutique item that a lot of people are interested in (they got $60 from me after all).

I guess there's a reason that George Lucas kept releasing all new extra special X anniversary collector's editions of Star Wars.

10 bucks per ~100 pages of high quality adventuring is not a bad deal at all.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;1049573So basically you are advocating for a plain no art, plain text game pdf being offered for really cheap as the standard for a role playing game.

Funny that you do not practice what you are attempting to tell everyone else what to do. I don't see the Dark Albion book being offered in a no-frills, no art plain text version for $5.

Sounds like you are merely posing as someone who advocates for cheap pdfs for all while exploiting the capitalist rpg book market for all it can bear.

No, I'm saying there's a reasonable price for PDF books, reflecting both the initial costs and the opportunity for profit. The reason you need a much higher cost for a print book is that there's an ongoing cost beyond the original creation.

Quote from: Brand55 on July 11, 2018, 06:43:59 PM
Changing Jackson Elias is silly. When I start the campaign in a month or two, I'll be using the same character that I've used in previous runs through MoN as I don't care about Chaosium altering important NPCs to fill some sort of quota. Thankfully, keeping the old Elias is easy enough. I'm not sure about the other major NPC changes as I haven't looked into them yet. If they're interesting new characters, great. If they're just gender swaps much like the way new Elias was basically just a change from white to black, I'll be less impressed.

I'm still digesting the Peru chapter but I've looked ahead a bit. I don't mind the idea of the new plot in New York, but I am worried that it may make things run too long there at the start of everything. New York is huge now with a ton of characters. That's daunting to hit new Cthulhu players with early on. I'll likely use it but only if it looks to be worth the trouble of adding all the extra material.

Oh, and the art. I'm really torn on the art. I've seen some really great pieces so far, but some stuff (especially some character portraits) is a major no-go for me. Another big reason I'm sticking with the old Elias character is that the new portrait for him looks so goofy I actually laughed when I saw it.

So, after having some time with it, how did it pan out? Were the changes reasonable that add more variety and RP opportunity, or cringey in your face? I'm a newish keeper debating on getting it of the older version.

Quote from: Xanadu on October 18, 2022, 12:59:12 AM
So, after having some time with it, how did it pan out? Were the changes reasonable that add more variety and RP opportunity, or cringey in your face? I'm a newish keeper debating on getting it of the older version.

It's been some time, but for me it was a mixed bag. There was some good stuff, some bad. Due to real life stuff, we got about halfway through the campaign before having to stop.

There are some good additions and several smaller plotlines are fleshed out, which I liked. I trimmed out a few scenes in the New York chapter and it worked well. Some of the other changes are completely unnecessary and seemingly done to earn woke points, but you likely won't notice if you aren't already familiar with the older versions. Probably the biggest issue I had was the sheer size of the books; I found them a hindrance to use at the table because it took extra time to find anything if I had to look something up. If the amount of material doesn't intimidate you, it's certainly worth running the new one.

Personally, if I ever run a MoN campaign again I'll be using my 2010 copy as the base and look into integrating a few of the changes/subplots from the new version.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 21, 2018, 04:25:00 AM

But not to whitewash elements that certain ideological sectors of society have declared "offensive"?

That's EXACTLY what it is, Pundit.  I bought the original boxed edition of Masks when it came out and ran the campaign twice.  I got a chance to actually play in the campaign under another Keeper when the 7th edition came out.  Chaosium may want to straddle the fence on this issue for business reasons -- they've seen what happens to companies who say "we're left, we're proud, don't like it, don't buy it" -- but anyone who's familiar with all editions of the campaign and followed the SJW screeching over the years about "problematic" issues with Masks knows what I'm talking about.

That said, I'm not boycotting Chaosium because, though they may have instituted some changes I don't like, they also haven't deliberately insulted their customers and told us to " hit the road, you won't be missed" like others have done.

My advice for anyone who wants to run Masks is simply to get the CoC rules for 1st through 6th edition (any will do), buy an older edition of the Complete Masks campaign, and use most of your cash to buy the H.P. Lovecraft Historical Society's box of gamer props for MoN.  Now THAT'S worth buying.  It's based on 7th edition, but as they are only props it doesn't matter much.

Quote from: Brand55 on October 18, 2022, 11:41:22 AM
It's been some time, but for me it was a mixed bag. There was some good stuff, some bad. Due to real life stuff, we got about halfway through the campaign before having to stop.

There are some good additions and several smaller plotlines are fleshed out, which I liked. I trimmed out a few scenes in the New York chapter and it worked well. Some of the other changes are completely unnecessary and seemingly done to earn woke points, but you likely won't notice if you aren't already familiar with the older versions. Probably the biggest issue I had was the sheer size of the books; I found them a hindrance to use at the table because it took extra time to find anything if I had to look something up.

Thanks, Brand55. I played through 7th ed Masks of Nyarlathotep a little over a year ago, but I wasn't familiar with the earlier versions.

Can you say more about the good additions and fleshed out plotlines?

One issue that I had as a player was what seemed like a tension between dramatic timing and immersive timetables, but that's probably not changed. There were several points when we arrived just in time for a dramatic event, but in-character, we had no reason to think that timing was critical. If we delayed on the trip, we'd still arrive just in time - but if we delayed at the location, we could miss the dramatic timing.

Timing in the campaign is funny, and that's nothing new. A lot of time the books will push on as if the PCs are gonna arrive at X time when a rite or something is going on, but I actually keep track of time when I GM. So if a rite only happens during a new moon and the party gets to the location a week later, then I'll have to adjust and adapt to keep things going since the party isn't going to see the rite happening. That often means I go off-road a bit compared to the published campaign.

As for the new additions, I'll focus on the early chapters since that's what we got to spend the most time on.

The prelude in Peru is a great addition overall. Fans were making Chapter 0 adventures with Jackson Elias going back decades because it works so much better when he's killed. While the prelude didn't wow me or anything, I think it works well to get people more invested in their friend's death. I hated the race change for Jackson and didn't keep it when I ran, but then I firmly had his image and mannerisms in mind from previous versions.

The New York chapter, to me, benefitted the most out of the new material. The subplot of the innocent man was mentioned in earlier versions but it was left entirely up to the GM to make something of it. Adding that into the campaign really helped push the story along, IMO. I think New York might have the most new characters out of all the chapters, and while it's good that more was added it was a bit overwhelming trying to keep track of so many minor NPCs. I ended up downplaying some of those scenes to keep the story flowing and not bogging down.

England is strange. On the surface, the changes are relatively minor. The major change is that one of the sidetrack scenarios went from being about a werewolf to being about a ghoul. I actually didn't like that change since I liked having some non-Cthulhu horror stuff in the campaign. One other niggling change for me was the softening of the rites at Misr House. In the original campaigns, they were much more explicit with female captives being raped by lesser gods and occasionally bearing offspring. If I recall correctly, the new version cut that out so now it's just the cultists having an orgy or sacrificing victims. It's not a huge change by any means, but it seemed unnecessary to me. I could judge my groups and knew whether or not to touch on such subjects, but the new version cut that out entirely.

So England is overall very similar, but it's a perfect example of my major complaint with the new version. Despite not offering a bunch of new material like New York, the chapter is over 3 times longer than the same chapter in the 2010 edition. I liked having some things more fleshed out, but the overall effect is to make things feel bloated to me and harder to use. I think doubling the size would have been more than enough. I'm sure some would disagree, though, and appreciate having so many things spelled out more explicitly.

Quote from: Brand55 on October 18, 2022, 02:11:48 PM
Timing in the campaign is funny, and that's nothing new. A lot of time the books will push on as if the PCs are gonna arrive at X time when a rite or something is going on, but I actually keep track of time when I GM. So if a rite only happens during a new moon and the party gets to the location a week later, then I'll have to adjust and adapt to keep things going since the party isn't going to see the rite happening. That often means I go off-road a bit compared to the published campaign.

As for the new additions, I'll focus on the early chapters since that's what we got to spend the most time on.

The prelude in Peru is a great addition overall. Fans were making Chapter 0 adventures with Jackson Elias going back decades because it works so much better when he's killed. While the prelude didn't wow me or anything, I think it works well to get people more invested in their friend's death. I hated the race change for Jackson and didn't keep it when I ran, but then I firmly had his image and mannerisms in mind from previous versions.

The New York chapter, to me, benefitted the most out of the new material. The subplot of the innocent man was mentioned in earlier versions but it was left entirely up to the GM to make something of it. Adding that into the campaign really helped push the story along, IMO. I think New York might have the most new characters out of all the chapters, and while it's good that more was added it was a bit overwhelming trying to keep track of so many minor NPCs. I ended up downplaying some of those scenes to keep the story flowing and not bogging down.

England is strange. On the surface, the changes are relatively minor. The major change is that one of the sidetrack scenarios went from being about a werewolf to being about a ghoul. I actually didn't like that change since I liked having some non-Cthulhu horror stuff in the campaign. One other niggling change for me was the softening of the rites at Misr House. In the original campaigns, they were much more explicit with female captives being raped by lesser gods and occasionally bearing offspring. If I recall correctly, the new version cut that out so now it's just the cultists having an orgy or sacrificing victims. It's not a huge change by any means, but it seemed unnecessary to me. I could judge my groups and knew whether or not to touch on such subjects, but the new version cut that out entirely.

So England is overall very similar, but it's a perfect example of my major complaint with the new version. Despite not offering a bunch of new material like New York, the chapter is over 3 times longer than the same chapter in the 2010 edition. I liked having some things more fleshed out, but the overall effect is to make things feel bloated to me and harder to use. I think doubling the size would have been more than enough. I'm sure some would disagree, though, and appreciate having so many things spelled out more explicitly.

Thanks for the heads up and detailed breakdown! I tend to prefer more open ended prompts to incorporate home brew and improv rather than condescendingly over explained bloat, so I'll probably be getting the older edition.

Are there any other famous modules that You'd recommended? How about newer stuff I should be aware of potential issues with?

Quote from: Xanadu on October 18, 2022, 02:44:12 PM
Thanks for the heads up and detailed breakdown! I tend to prefer more open ended prompts to incorporate home brew and improv rather than condescendingly over explained bloat, so I'll probably be getting the older edition.

Are there any other famous modules that You'd recommended? How about newer stuff I should be aware of potential issues with?

I'm no expert on Chaosium's stuff; I haven't read any of their new books, and I actually use Realms of Cthulhu to run my games instead of the original CoC rules. Doing a web search will give you a lot of suggestions, but your biggest hurdle might be acquiring some of the older modules and not paying an arm and a leg. The last time I looked a few years ago, a lot of the classics were quite pricey. If you're fine running with a PDF, you shouldn't have any problems.

Beyond the Mountains of Madness and Shadow of Yog-Sothoth are probably two of the best options you could look into. I have Horror on the Orient Express (the 2014 edition) but have never had a chance to use it. It is MASSIVE, so I wouldn't suggest it unless you've got a group with plenty of time to invest. I do like the shorter scenarios collected in Mansions of Madness, too.

I checked out this thread because I still cherish (dread?) the terrific memories (in King James English that means full of terror) of playing Call of Cthulhu in 1985.

The board game expansion for Eldritch Horror called Masks of Nyarlathotep is equally fantastic and terrific. You each play a character in this board game as part of a team doomed to struggle against the inevitable horror.

Quote from: Brand55 on October 18, 2022, 03:07:12 PM

Quote from: Xanadu on October 18, 2022, 02:44:12 PM
Thanks for the heads up and detailed breakdown! I tend to prefer more open ended prompts to incorporate home brew and improv rather than condescendingly over explained bloat, so I'll probably be getting the older edition.

Are there any other famous modules that You'd recommended? How about newer stuff I should be aware of potential issues with?

I'm no expert on Chaosium's stuff; I haven't read any of their new books, and I actually use Realms of Cthulhu to run my games instead of the original CoC rules. Doing a web search will give you a lot of suggestions, but your biggest hurdle might be acquiring some of the older modules and not paying an arm and a leg. The last time I looked a few years ago, a lot of the classics were quite pricey. If you're fine running with a PDF, you shouldn't have any problems.

Beyond the Mountains of Madness and Shadow of Yog-Sothoth are probably two of the best options you could look into. I have Horror on the Orient Express (the 2014 edition) but have never had a chance to use it. It is MASSIVE, so I wouldn't suggest it unless you've got a group with plenty of time to invest. I do like the shorter scenarios collected in Mansions of Madness, too.

Of the big campaign books, I've played a small part of Horror on the Orient Express in the 1990s and the full revised Masks of Nyarlathotep two years ago. I've also GMed part of John Tynes' The Golden Dawn campaign with a lot of my own adaptations in the early 2000s. I also played with the author of Beyond the Mountains of Madness for many years, but while we went to the Antarctic, I never played through it straight - she had her own custom campaign. I think she's a great GM, so I'd recommend Beyond just on that strength.

I loved The Golden Dawn, but I'm not sure how well it plays straight. It has a great premise and characters that I enjoyed adapting.  I didn't like what I saw of Orient Express in that it seemed excessively railroady (heh) - but I didn't know it very thoroughly. Masks of Nyarlathotep was fun, but my biggest problem was the issue of dramatic timing.

I've also played through and GMed a lot of short scenarios - I don't think I could catalog them all.