Greetings!

So said an ancient Roman philosopher.

The observations of the ancient Greeks and Romans on the nature and development of government has been profound, and time-tested. How much thought and details do you put into the establishment and development of governments in our game world?

These considerations also made me think of the ancient Spartans. The Spartans dominated for *centuries*--and went a long way towards engineering a "Master Race". Beyond the hyperbole, it was a reliably established fact in the ancient world that a Spartan warrior was equal to 10 lesser men. Oftentimes, Sparta dispatched only a single Spartan general to assist some foreign nation--in which such a single Spartan general in a matter of months, changed the flow and outcome of history and politics. At other times, a platoon of Spartan warriors and a few officers were sufficient to save an entire kingdom--or swiftly usher in a rebellion to change an entire government. The Spartans created absolute supermen that were physically far superior to the nations of lesser men around them, for centuries. Contemporaries gawked at how stunningly beautiful all of the Spartan women were, as well. The Spartans also scorned "ART" and rejected the common use of all forms of money, and also rejected mercantile values, and socially, merchants were often ranked not much higher than slaves or menial workers.

More than a few respected contemporary historians have agreed that the Spartan society was often strange, sometimes terrifying, harsh, and absolutely ruthless--and yet, despite the otherwise wincing protestations of modern libertines--the Spartan society and culture dominated successfully for many centuries.

Imagine if the fantasy Orcs embraced the Spartan culture?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on March 20, 2022, 05:54:43 PM
How much thought and details do you put into the establishment and development of governments in our game world?

Quite a lot. I get annoyed when I realise game designers have not. 

I've put quite a lot into developing the feudal system in my Damara 1360 DR Forgotten Realms game.

Quote from: SHARK on March 20, 2022, 05:54:43 PMHow much thought and details do you put into the establishment and development of governments in our game world?

That would probably vary by how important mundane politics is to the actual activity of the gaming PCs. In practice, political intrigue in games, I think, tends to focus far more on the clash of personalities and loyalty than on clever exploitation or manipulation of the rules of the government, or the understanding of why those rules are the way they are. (When was the last time an RPG session turned on collecting enough signatures or money to get a candidate on the ballot, or on researching why a bylaw was passed so that they could campaign more effectively for repealing it?)

QuoteMore than a few respected contemporary historians have agreed that the Spartan society was often strange, sometimes terrifying, harsh, and absolutely ruthless--and yet, despite the otherwise wincing protestations of modern libertines--the Spartan society and culture dominated successfully for many centuries.

That, too, would depend at least in part on how you define "success". For all their military dominance of the Peloponnesian in their day, the Spartans didn't leave that much cultural impact on the Greco-Roman legacy beyond the single general archetype of the "warrior society". There are no epic Spartan poems, no contributions to art, science, architecture, literature or mathematics. Even their impact on cultural philosophy tends tragically towards the destructive -- it's no coincidence that Russell cites them as inspiration for Rousseau, Nietzsche and National Socialism -- and for all the admiration with which other Greeks wrote of them, it's also notable that no other city-state actually made any serious attempt to adopt their constitution or government, even while under their hegemony.

QuoteImagine if the fantasy Orcs embraced the Spartan culture?

One could argue that they did, if one puts Sauron in the role of Lycurgus. But one could also note that that's exactly why nobody except an immortal demigod could pull it off, because no orcish leader could sustain or successfully teach the necessary self-discipline to make orcs into Spartans. No orc (at least in the classic definition of that creature) is loyal to something greater than himself save out of direct personal fear; even any preference for his own tribe over others is more likely laziness and familiarity rather than affection.

I could see the breeding of some kind of super ork by some evil bastard sorcerer, alright. So they are highly disciplined and fight like the devil. And are all just like their cousins, pure evil.

Probably see a lot of 'orc on orc' action too.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 20, 2022, 07:29:02 PM
I could see the breeding of some kind of super ork by some evil bastard sorcerer, alright. So they are highly disciplined and fight like the devil. And are all just like their cousins, pure evil.

Probably see a lot of 'orc on orc' action too.

*squints*

I... I get this reference.

Quote from: Arkansan on March 21, 2022, 04:56:53 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 20, 2022, 07:29:02 PM
I could see the breeding of some kind of super ork by some evil bastard sorcerer, alright. So they are highly disciplined and fight like the devil. And are all just like their cousins, pure evil.

Probably see a lot of 'orc on orc' action too.

*squints*

I... I get this reference.

The Spartans were all at it. lol

Should not the Japanese Samurai also be grouped with the Spartans? They are said to have many of the same listed traits.

Quote from: SHARK on March 20, 2022, 05:54:43 PM
Greetings!

So said an ancient Roman philosopher.

The observations of the ancient Greeks and Romans on the nature and development of government has been profound, and time-tested. How much thought and details do you put into the establishment and development of governments in our game world?

These considerations also made me think of the ancient Spartans. The Spartans dominated for *centuries*--and went a long way towards engineering a "Master Race". Beyond the hyperbole, it was a reliably established fact in the ancient world that a Spartan warrior was equal to 10 lesser men. Oftentimes, Sparta dispatched only a single Spartan general to assist some foreign nation--in which such a single Spartan general in a matter of months, changed the flow and outcome of history and politics. At other times, a platoon of Spartan warriors and a few officers were sufficient to save an entire kingdom--or swiftly usher in a rebellion to change an entire government. The Spartans created absolute supermen that were physically far superior to the nations of lesser men around them, for centuries. Contemporaries gawked at how stunningly beautiful all of the Spartan women were, as well. The Spartans also scorned "ART" and rejected the common use of all forms of money, and also rejected mercantile values, and socially, merchants were often ranked not much higher than slaves or menial workers.

More than a few respected contemporary historians have agreed that the Spartan society was often strange, sometimes terrifying, harsh, and absolutely ruthless--and yet, despite the otherwise wincing protestations of modern libertines--the Spartan society and culture dominated successfully for many centuries.

Imagine if the fantasy Orcs embraced the Spartan culture?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Most of the time the "Spartan Ideal" gets expressed in extreme cultures (like orcs) by statistics/attributes.  Imagine what it would take to survive to adulthood in an Ork society.  If you weren't exceptionally strong, cunning or have magical ability, you're a slave/food.

Warrior Cultures like Spartans, Vikings, Samurai, Maori, many NA cultures, etc would, to various degrees have higher average physical attributes.  They may still have an 18 maximum, but they're far less likely to have a 9 (in D&D terms).

Imagine if every 8 year old American boy got dropped off at an Army or Navy Special Warfare School to train for the next ten years, you either graduate or die.  The girls get sent to the equivalent of Olympic level training in Swimming, Gymnastics, Ice Skating, etc.  All day to day labor done by servants.

What does that society look like in 5 generations?  You'd have a whole bunch of hot hardbodies as everyone is pushed to the limit of their fitness, and those with higher limits breed more.  It's basically forced evolution with extreme stressors, a eugenics program.  Such a society has a limit, too large and the Spartans can't control their slave population.

Lawful/Evil cultures are the goto here, or political systems that suborn individual will and freedom to the expectations of the State.

Quote from: crkrueger on March 21, 2022, 08:33:47 AM

Quote from: SHARK on March 20, 2022, 05:54:43 PM
Greetings!

So said an ancient Roman philosopher.

The observations of the ancient Greeks and Romans on the nature and development of government has been profound, and time-tested. How much thought and details do you put into the establishment and development of governments in our game world?

These considerations also made me think of the ancient Spartans. The Spartans dominated for *centuries*--and went a long way towards engineering a "Master Race". Beyond the hyperbole, it was a reliably established fact in the ancient world that a Spartan warrior was equal to 10 lesser men. Oftentimes, Sparta dispatched only a single Spartan general to assist some foreign nation--in which such a single Spartan general in a matter of months, changed the flow and outcome of history and politics. At other times, a platoon of Spartan warriors and a few officers were sufficient to save an entire kingdom--or swiftly usher in a rebellion to change an entire government. The Spartans created absolute supermen that were physically far superior to the nations of lesser men around them, for centuries. Contemporaries gawked at how stunningly beautiful all of the Spartan women were, as well. The Spartans also scorned "ART" and rejected the common use of all forms of money, and also rejected mercantile values, and socially, merchants were often ranked not much higher than slaves or menial workers.

More than a few respected contemporary historians have agreed that the Spartan society was often strange, sometimes terrifying, harsh, and absolutely ruthless--and yet, despite the otherwise wincing protestations of modern libertines--the Spartan society and culture dominated successfully for many centuries.

Imagine if the fantasy Orcs embraced the Spartan culture?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Most of the time the "Spartan Ideal" gets expressed in extreme cultures (like orcs) by statistics/attributes.  Imagine what it would take to survive to adulthood in an Ork society.  If you weren't exceptionally strong, cunning or have magical ability, you're a slave/food.

Warrior Cultures like Spartans, Vikings, Samurai, Maori, many NA cultures, etc would, to various degrees have higher average physical attributes.  They may still have an 18 maximum, but they're far less likely to have a 9 (in D&D terms).

Imagine if every 8 year old American boy got dropped off at an Army or Navy Special Warfare School to train for the next ten years, you either graduate or die.  The girls get sent to the equivalent of Olympic level training in Swimming, Gymnastics, Ice Skating, etc.  All day to day labor done by servants.

What does that society look like in 5 generations?  You'd have a whole bunch of hot hardbodies as everyone is pushed to the limit of their fitness, and those with higher limits breed more.  It's basically forced evolution with extreme stressors, a eugenics program.  Such a society has a limit, too large and the Spartans can't control their slave population.

Lawful/Evil cultures are the goto here, or political systems that suborn individual will and freedom to the expectations of the State.

If I recall right, that was literally what happened to the Spartans. Because there was no option for upward mobility from the helot caste, the actual 'full blooded' Spartans were eventually outnumbered by their slave/helot population.

Some fictional societies are written so as to recognize the problem and address it. The Clans in Battletech eventually adopted rites that let freeborn warriors establish and found their own Bloodname houses (which effectively moves them into what passes for high nobility in the Clans). Sure, you have to fight like hell to get there but if you succeed, you earned it.

Yes, there is trouble as your few "Elite" become outnumbered by the general population.
Doesn't matter if you use physical prowess or financial prowess, at some point those that are locked out will find a way to the top.
Often that is by dragging down the "Elite" and replacing them. 

Quotethe Spartan society and culture dominated successfully for many centuries.

I would consider it to be vastly exaggerated notion.
Sparta politically dominated Hellada for about 40 years - between Peloponesian and Boetian War.
And culturally... like never. Spartan culture was so divergent from rest of Greeks they were almost always odd egg in basket. Other cities could use help of Spartan military (though honestly this 10 to 1 seems more like Spartan propaganda) but well they were rarely respected outside of this field - being basically totally martial people where any work was done by slaves, and women had lots of freedoms do not strike well with rest of Hellada.

If anything Greeks seen Spartan as weirdly not-masculine enough, treating wifes are semi-equals and shunning more refined manly interests of politics, culture, philosophy and craft.
And even this military warcraft was not enough to buy them consistent power within Hellada.

QuoteOne could argue that they did, if one puts Sauron in the role of Lycurgus. But one could also note that that's exactly why nobody except an immortal demigod could pull it off, because no orcish leader could sustain or successfully teach the necessary self-discipline to make orcs into Spartans. No orc (at least in the classic definition of that creature) is loyal to something greater than himself save out of direct personal fear; even any preference for his own tribe over others is more likely laziness and familiarity rather than affection.

simple solution is another D&D archetype - hobgoblin. Those are basically Spartan humanoids.

QuoteIf I recall right, that was literally what happened to the Spartans. Because there was no option for upward mobility from the helot caste, the actual 'full blooded' Spartans were eventually outnumbered by their slave/helot population.

And Spartans had bad demographic statistics because men spend long time in army, so they sire not that many children.
Ironically for all anti-helote cruelties they hold higher status compared to other enslaved populations - as other cities practiced chattel slavery, helots were publicly owned serfs with certain rights.
Weirdly enough to this weird mixture of semi-ownership, ritual wars, weird laws with semi-freedom seems to be somehow more creepy than straight up slavery of Athenians.

Quote from: SHARK on March 20, 2022, 05:54:43 PM
Greetings!

So said an ancient Roman philosopher.

The observations of the ancient Greeks and Romans on the nature and development of government has been profound, and time-tested. How much thought and details do you put into the establishment and development of governments in our game world?

These considerations also made me think of the ancient Spartans. The Spartans dominated for *centuries*--and went a long way towards engineering a "Master Race". Beyond the hyperbole, it was a reliably established fact in the ancient world that a Spartan warrior was equal to 10 lesser men. Oftentimes, Sparta dispatched only a single Spartan general to assist some foreign nation--in which such a single Spartan general in a matter of months, changed the flow and outcome of history and politics. At other times, a platoon of Spartan warriors and a few officers were sufficient to save an entire kingdom--or swiftly usher in a rebellion to change an entire government. The Spartans created absolute supermen that were physically far superior to the nations of lesser men around them, for centuries. Contemporaries gawked at how stunningly beautiful all of the Spartan women were, as well. The Spartans also scorned "ART" and rejected the common use of all forms of money, and also rejected mercantile values, and socially, merchants were often ranked not much higher than slaves or menial workers.

More than a few respected contemporary historians have agreed that the Spartan society was often strange, sometimes terrifying, harsh, and absolutely ruthless--and yet, despite the otherwise wincing protestations of modern libertines--the Spartan society and culture dominated successfully for many centuries.

Imagine if the fantasy Orcs embraced the Spartan culture?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I'm sure I once played in a setting where the GM had ruled that the Orcs killed/expelled the weak. And by weak they also meant lacking the killing instinct.

Quote from: SHARK on March 20, 2022, 05:54:43 PM
More than a few respected contemporary historians have agreed that the Spartan society was often strange, sometimes terrifying, harsh, and absolutely ruthless--and yet, despite the otherwise wincing protestations of modern libertines--the Spartan society and culture dominated successfully for many centuries.

Success? I guess if you count living in terror of their helots who outnumbered them 7 to 1 as a success? The other greeks were not rushing to emulate how they lived. Nor they were inspired by Spartan art, music, or drama. Although the Spartans became famous for the their Laconic wit.

While Spartan military prowess was legendary it took all the Greeks contributing to beat back the Persians. Sparta even sat out Marathon the battle that decided the first Persian invasion. In the end, the legacy of Greek was written in Athens, Syracuse, Thebes, Cornith, and the other city states not Sparta. Which finally blew away in the dust after it was sacked by the Visigoths in 396 AD.

As for Orcs as Spartans I presume the result would echo history. Their neighbors live in terror of their military prowess. However in the long run their reach would be limited due to the fact that nearly all their energies would be devoted to keeping what they had together.