For a long time I've been battling between adding (or not) skills to my games a la AD&D2e

I've even made some reduced skill lists.

But I don't want the characters to grow just because, and "buying" the skill (training) is always something done off screen so why bother?

Well, I think I have come up with a "Skill System" that allows the characters to get better at stuff not on their class but it's always on screen:

Attributes go from 3-18 and never change.
Attribute modifiers go from -3 to +3 and never change... Unless...

To attempt to pick a lock you roll 1d20 against your saving throw + whatever attribute modifier the GM thinks pertinent, if you succeed you did it, after a number of successes you gain one level of training (You start as Untrained):

UNTRAINED
ROOKIE
NOVICE
VERSED
EXPERT
MASTER   
LEGEND

Lets say the number is 10 successful attempts.

Every 3 levels of training give you a +1 for your next attempt.

Every failure between levels cancels a succes, because you haven't really learned and it was luck that you did it the last time.

From Rookie onwards every natural 20 counts as two attempts, so if you manage 5 attempts and get a natural 20 in each then you get the next level in training.

What do you guys think?

Edited to add:

The +1 for your next try only applies to that particular task:

Lets say you're trying to pick a lock, well you start getting better at it but your DEX and it's modifier remain the same for anything else related.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 30, 2021, 07:46:12 PM
For a long time I've been battling between adding (or not) skills to my games a la AD&D2e

I've even made some reduced skill lists.
...

Another option is to get rid of skill lists entirely: I really like the backgrounds/occupations used as skills like in Barbarians of Lemuria.


My house rule variant that I will be shortly trying out is this:

Kraven the Thief has the following Backgrounds :

Thief: 3
Smuggler: 2
Hunter: 1
Urchin: 2

For proficiencies; I would have them name/label the specific thing that they want to be good at, and you get to roll with advantage when your proficiency applies.

Your former 'skill' list is now the proficiency list.

So Kravens player wants to sneak across the courtyard. Well Kraven has a Thief 3 that would certainly apply. Kraven also has proficiency in 'Silent move' which would certainly apply in this case.

So Kravens player Rolls a d20, + dex bonus + Thief 3, with advantage because of his proficiency.

Kraven is now across the courtyard to a wall. Luckily Kraven also has a proficiency 'Scale Sheer Surface'...

Notice that a characters "backgrounds/occupations" skills are not tied to any given stat.

So if Kraven now wants to open a locked box the GM may give him options: he can pick the Lock rolling with his  thief + dex bonus, but that will take a few rounds and he can hear guards coming. Or the GM says you think you can force the lock as well; roll Strength bonus + Thief to get it done quick.

Kraven does not have a "Pick Lock' proficiency, so he does not roll with advantage.

When playing Honor + Intrigue for the first time it took my players a session or so to wrap their heads around the 'backgrounds as skills' concept because they were so broad.

But those sessions convinced me that when I run an D&D/d20 based game in the future, house-ruling in the system I have above is worth a try.

Quote from: Jaeger on November 30, 2021, 08:16:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 30, 2021, 07:46:12 PM
For a long time I've been battling between adding (or not) skills to my games a la AD&D2e

I've even made some reduced skill lists.
...

Another option is to get rid of skill lists entirely: I really like the backgrounds/occupations used as skills like in Barbarians of Lemuria.


My house rule variant that I will be shortly trying out is this:

Kraven the Thief has the following Backgrounds :

Thief: 3
Smuggler: 2
Hunter: 1
Urchin: 2

For proficiencies; I would have them name/label the specific thing that they want to be good at, and you get to roll with advantage when your proficiency applies.

Your former 'skill' list is now the proficiency list.

So Kravens player wants to sneak across the courtyard. Well Kraven has a Thief 3 that would certainly apply. Kraven also has proficiency in 'Silent move' which would certainly apply in this case.

So Kravens player Rolls a d20, + dex bonus + Thief 3, with advantage because of his proficiency.

Kraven is now across the courtyard to a wall. Luckily Kraven also has a proficiency 'Scale Sheer Surface'...

Notice that a characters "backgrounds/occupations" skills are not tied to any given stat.

So if Kraven now wants to open a locked box the GM may give him options: he can pick the Lock rolling with his  thief + dex bonus, but that will take a few rounds and he can hear guards coming. Or the GM says you think you can force the lock as well; roll Strength bonus + Thief to get it done quick.

Kraven does not have a "Pick Lock' proficiency, so he does not roll with advantage.

When playing Honor + Intrigue for the first time it took my players a session or so to wrap their heads around the 'backgrounds as skills' concept because they were so broad.

But those sessions convinced me that when I run an D&D/d20 based game in the future, house-ruling in the system I have above is worth a try.

Maybe I didn't explain myself, the system is to avoid ANY type of skill lists, not even the BoL backgrounds are needed.

You can attempt anything and doing it enough times means you learn how to do it. Since it is in-game you HAVE to either role play it and roll or just roll depending on the task and GM.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 30, 2021, 08:23:35 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on November 30, 2021, 08:16:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 30, 2021, 07:46:12 PM
For a long time I've been battling between adding (or not) skills to my games a la AD&D2e

I've even made some reduced skill lists.
...

Another option is to get rid of skill lists entirely: I really like the backgrounds/occupations used as skills like in Barbarians of Lemuria.


My house rule variant that I will be shortly trying out is this:

Kraven the Thief has the following Backgrounds :

Thief: 3
Smuggler: 2
Hunter: 1
Urchin: 2

For proficiencies; I would have them name/label the specific thing that they want to be good at, and you get to roll with advantage when your proficiency applies.

Your former 'skill' list is now the proficiency list.

So Kravens player wants to sneak across the courtyard. Well Kraven has a Thief 3 that would certainly apply. Kraven also has proficiency in 'Silent move' which would certainly apply in this case.

So Kravens player Rolls a d20, + dex bonus + Thief 3, with advantage because of his proficiency.

Kraven is now across the courtyard to a wall. Luckily Kraven also has a proficiency 'Scale Sheer Surface'...

Notice that a characters "backgrounds/occupations" skills are not tied to any given stat.

So if Kraven now wants to open a locked box the GM may give him options: he can pick the Lock rolling with his  thief + dex bonus, but that will take a few rounds and he can hear guards coming. Or the GM says you think you can force the lock as well; roll Strength bonus + Thief to get it done quick.

Kraven does not have a "Pick Lock' proficiency, so he does not roll with advantage.

When playing Honor + Intrigue for the first time it took my players a session or so to wrap their heads around the 'backgrounds as skills' concept because they were so broad.

But those sessions convinced me that when I run an D&D/d20 based game in the future, house-ruling in the system I have above is worth a try.

Maybe I didn't explain myself, the system is to avoid ANY type of skill lists, not even the BoL backgrounds are needed.

You can attempt anything and doing it enough times means you learn how to do it. Since it is in-game you HAVE to either role play it and roll or just roll depending on the task and GM.

So everyone starts completely untrained in everything? That's going a bit too far into the zero-to-heo line for me. That's much like playing D&D and starting with no proficiencoes (in armor, weapons, skills, or anything) nor spells. Your idea isn't bad, but starting from absolute zero isn't a great idea. Raise the floor a bit so characters have some variety at the start.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 30, 2021, 08:39:27 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 30, 2021, 08:23:35 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on November 30, 2021, 08:16:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 30, 2021, 07:46:12 PM
For a long time I've been battling between adding (or not) skills to my games a la AD&D2e

I've even made some reduced skill lists.
...

Another option is to get rid of skill lists entirely: I really like the backgrounds/occupations used as skills like in Barbarians of Lemuria.


My house rule variant that I will be shortly trying out is this:

Kraven the Thief has the following Backgrounds :

Thief: 3
Smuggler: 2
Hunter: 1
Urchin: 2

For proficiencies; I would have them name/label the specific thing that they want to be good at, and you get to roll with advantage when your proficiency applies.

Your former 'skill' list is now the proficiency list.

So Kravens player wants to sneak across the courtyard. Well Kraven has a Thief 3 that would certainly apply. Kraven also has proficiency in 'Silent move' which would certainly apply in this case.

So Kravens player Rolls a d20, + dex bonus + Thief 3, with advantage because of his proficiency.

Kraven is now across the courtyard to a wall. Luckily Kraven also has a proficiency 'Scale Sheer Surface'...

Notice that a characters "backgrounds/occupations" skills are not tied to any given stat.

So if Kraven now wants to open a locked box the GM may give him options: he can pick the Lock rolling with his  thief + dex bonus, but that will take a few rounds and he can hear guards coming. Or the GM says you think you can force the lock as well; roll Strength bonus + Thief to get it done quick.

Kraven does not have a "Pick Lock' proficiency, so he does not roll with advantage.

When playing Honor + Intrigue for the first time it took my players a session or so to wrap their heads around the 'backgrounds as skills' concept because they were so broad.

But those sessions convinced me that when I run an D&D/d20 based game in the future, house-ruling in the system I have above is worth a try.

Maybe I didn't explain myself, the system is to avoid ANY type of skill lists, not even the BoL backgrounds are needed.

You can attempt anything and doing it enough times means you learn how to do it. Since it is in-game you HAVE to either role play it and roll or just roll depending on the task and GM.

So everyone starts completely untrained in everything? That's going a bit too far into the zero-to-heo line for me. That's much like playing D&D and starting with no proficiencoes (in armor, weapons, skills, or anything) nor spells. Your idea isn't bad, but starting from absolute zero isn't a great idea. Raise the floor a bit so characters have some variety at the start.

Nope, everybody starts trained at the stuff their class does, The warrior his weapons/armor/etc. The Wizard his magic, etc. The Thief his thievery etc.

But your Warrior CAN learn to pick locks and get better at it given enough tries. And your Wizard can become proficient with a crossbow given enoug tries.

What I want to do is to allow your character to grow in-game and not off screen.

So you want to learn to play the lire? Fine, role play it for me and then if you do it well you get to roll and I might even give you a bonus for your roleplaying.

It doesn't matter you're a warrior, it matters that you invest the time in-game to learn it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 30, 2021, 07:46:12 PM
To attempt to pick a lock you roll 1d20 against your saving throw + whatever attribute modifier the GM thinks pertinent, if you succeed you did it, after a number of successes you gain one level of training (You start as Untrained):

UNTRAINED
ROOKIE
NOVICE
VERSED
EXPERT
MASTER   
LEGEND

Lets say the number is 10 successful attempts.

Every 3 levels of training give you a +1 for your next attempt.

Every failure between levels cancels a succes, because you haven't really learned and it was luck that you did it the last time.

From Rookie onwards every natural 20 counts as two attempts, so if you manage 5 attempts and get a natural 20 in each then you get the next level in training.

What do you guys think?

Interesting. I'm used to BRP games like RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu, which advance in play. In those systems:

1) It requires a successful test to get an increase check, but only one check per adventure in each skill.
2) It has diminishing returns, requiring a rolled failure to get an increase.

Without those, I think the rate of increase will accelerate. As someone gets better in a skill, they'll use it more frequently and get more successful attempts. Games more often have diminishing returns, like requiring more skill points per level.

Quote from: jhkim on November 30, 2021, 11:52:41 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 30, 2021, 07:46:12 PM
To attempt to pick a lock you roll 1d20 against your saving throw + whatever attribute modifier the GM thinks pertinent, if you succeed you did it, after a number of successes you gain one level of training (You start as Untrained):

UNTRAINED
ROOKIE
NOVICE
VERSED
EXPERT
MASTER   
LEGEND

Lets say the number is 10 successful attempts.

Every 3 levels of training give you a +1 for your next attempt.

Every failure between levels cancels a succes, because you haven't really learned and it was luck that you did it the last time.

From Rookie onwards every natural 20 counts as two attempts, so if you manage 5 attempts and get a natural 20 in each then you get the next level in training.

What do you guys think?

Interesting. I'm used to BRP games like RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu, which advance in play. In those systems:

1) It requires a successful test to get an increase check, but only one check per adventure in each skill.
2) It has diminishing returns, requiring a rolled failure to get an increase.

Without those, I think the rate of increase will accelerate. As someone gets better in a skill, they'll use it more frequently and get more successful attempts. Games more often have diminishing returns, like requiring more skill points per level.

Diminishing returns...

Well you get from untrained to rookie way faster than from versed to expert IRL, so it makes sense.

Lets see:
Every level after rookie requires 50% more attempts than the previous.

Thoughts?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 30, 2021, 08:53:06 PM
Nope, everybody starts trained at the stuff their class does, The warrior his weapons/armor/etc. The Wizard his magic, etc. The Thief his thievery etc.

But your Warrior CAN learn to pick locks and get better at it given enough tries. And your Wizard can become proficient with a crossbow given enoug tries.

What I want to do is to allow your character to grow in-game and not off screen.

So you want to learn to play the lire? Fine, role play it for me and then if you do it well you get to roll and I might even give you a bonus for your roleplaying.

It doesn't matter you're a warrior, it matters that you invest the time in-game to learn it.

Ok I see more clearly what you are getting at here.

So maybe something like this:

Everything would be an ability check. So every class can theoretically do/try every "skill".

(Magic users would be considered 'gifted' so not everyone can just learn magic - there would be some limits - and there would probably be a few more I can't think of now.)

But PC's get a bonus for their "class stuff": The warrior his weapons/armor/etc. The Wizard his magic, etc. The Thief his thievery etc.

So essentially each class has a list of a "special set of skills" that they are proficient in.

I would simply say that they can announce that they are training for the skill and will have to learn it in down time.

So they have to either spend a certain amount of XP over time - or you make a downtime training mechanic that for every x days spent training they get to roll a d6 and mark off the amount of effort spent to learn a new proficiency. When they have invested in enough training time to mark off enough effort, they then get to add that skill to their class proficiencies.

Personally I would keep it as simple as possible.

+2 Student

+4 Expert  (All classes have some proficiencies that start at this level)

+6 Mastery

In this way you can make all proficiency increases have to take place under the downtime mechanic, or maybe have a mini system where if they roll a natural 20 or beat a DC by 10+ they get to mark x amount of effort towards advancing a proficiency.

The higher the proficiency level, the more effort they need to mark off to advance it.

I would really want to avoid any system that does a bunch of small +1 Increases, as I feel it would defeat the purpose of getting rid of the complication of a skill system.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 01, 2021, 02:16:14 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 30, 2021, 08:53:06 PM
Nope, everybody starts trained at the stuff their class does, The warrior his weapons/armor/etc. The Wizard his magic, etc. The Thief his thievery etc.

But your Warrior CAN learn to pick locks and get better at it given enough tries. And your Wizard can become proficient with a crossbow given enoug tries.

What I want to do is to allow your character to grow in-game and not off screen.

So you want to learn to play the lire? Fine, role play it for me and then if you do it well you get to roll and I might even give you a bonus for your roleplaying.

It doesn't matter you're a warrior, it matters that you invest the time in-game to learn it.

Ok I see more clearly what you are getting at here.

So maybe something like this:

Everything would be an ability check. So every class can theoretically do/try every "skill".

(Magic users would be considered 'gifted' so there would be some limits - and a few more I probably can't think of now.)

But PC's get a bonus for their "class stuff": The warrior his weapons/armor/etc. The Wizard his magic, etc. The Thief his thievery etc.

So essentially each class has a list of a "special set of skills" that they are proficient in.

I would simply say that they can announce that they are training for the skill and will have to learn it in down time.

So they have to either spend a certain amount of XP over time - or you make a downtime training mechanic that for every x days spent training they get to roll a d6 and mark off the amount of effort spent to learn a new proficiency. When they have invested in enough training time to mark off enough effort, they then get to add that skill to their class proficiencies.

Personally I would keep it as simple as possible.

+2 Student

+4 Expert  (All classes have some proficiencies that start at this level)

+6 Mastery

In this way you can make all proficiency increases have to take place under the downtime mechanic, or maybe have a mini system where if they roll a natural 20 or beat a DC by 10+ they get to mark x amount of effort towards advancing a proficiency.

The higher the proficiency level, the more effort they need to mark off to advance it.

I would really want to avoid any system that does a bunch of small +1 Increases, as I feel it would defeat the purpose of getting rid of the complication of a skill system.

I always treat magic as a gift, you're born a mage/wizard/witch/wantever but you HAVE TO learn to use your "powers".

What you just described is the AD&D2e way, and it happens off screen, which is one of the things I don't want, I want the learning to be ON-Screen.

I also need a way to keep the thief better at thieving than the rest. So, maybe cap the skills not of your class?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 01, 2021, 02:34:34 AM
What you just described is the AD&D2e way, and it happens off screen, which is one of the things I don't want, I want the learning to be ON-Screen.

I also need a way to keep the thief better at thieving than the rest. So, maybe cap the skills not of your class?

I would combine my two ideas then.

Make all proficiency increases have to take place under the downtime mechanic, AND  have a system where if they roll a natural 20 or beat a DC by 10+ they get to mark x amount of effort towards advancing a proficiency.

You can have the requirement require more in game rolls over the downtime.

Capping how high you can learn a non-class skill is not a bad idea.

From my example: I would cap learning you non class skills at Expert. Only dedicated classes can get a "skill" to Mastery.

I am a fan of having a formalized downtime mechanic and actions as I feel it makes puts like spell research, healing, info gathering, and training for things over time into a format that players can engage with and have a firm idea of what they need to do for such activities. IMHO it also takes a a lot of the workload off of the GM to have to decide such things each time they come up.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 01, 2021, 02:06:33 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 30, 2021, 11:52:41 PM
Interesting. I'm used to BRP games like RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu, which advance in play. In those systems:

1) It requires a successful test to get an increase check, but only one check per adventure in each skill.
2) It has diminishing returns, requiring a rolled failure to get an increase.

Without those, I think the rate of increase will accelerate. As someone gets better in a skill, they'll use it more frequently and get more successful attempts. Games more often have diminishing returns, like requiring more skill points per level.

Diminishing returns...

Well you get from untrained to rookie way faster than from versed to expert IRL, so it makes sense.

Lets see:
Every level after rookie requires 50% more attempts than the previous.

Thoughts?

That sounds reasonable for diminishing returns.

I should bring up the issue of "hunting for checks". With any experience system, that is a meta-mechanic that affects player behavior. To some degree, it is intentional that players should have to show trying different skills in-play in order to advance in them. I've observed in BRP-based games, players are motivated to find excuses to try different skills, especially if there are in a situation with low consequences. So, they find an open window - but they all try to pick the door lock anyway to get the check. Or alternately, they find a reason to climb to the balcony instead of using the stairs to get a climb check.

This is mitigated in BRP by the rule of ​"max one check per adventure". That rule has a major effect because some skills are rolled on with much greater frequency than others - especially those which are rolled on repeatedly, like combat skills that are re-rolled every round, while non-combat skills are often rolled just once for an extended task. This does mean that players will often rotate between skills - like having many different weapons they will try. After succeeding with a sword (and thus getting a check), they switch to a club or axe to get a check on that too.

To some degree, this is intentional and desired. Players are using different skills in play to get advancement. But one should be aware about exactly what it motivates.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 01, 2021, 02:48:20 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 01, 2021, 02:34:34 AM
What you just described is the AD&D2e way, and it happens off screen, which is one of the things I don't want, I want the learning to be ON-Screen.

I also need a way to keep the thief better at thieving than the rest. So, maybe cap the skills not of your class?

I would combine my two ideas then.

Make all proficiency increases have to take place under the downtime mechanic, AND  have a system where if they roll a natural 20 or beat a DC by 10+ they get to mark x amount of effort towards advancing a proficiency.

You can have the requirement require more in game rolls over the downtime.

Capping how high you can learn a non-class skill is not a bad idea.

From my example: I would cap learning you non class skills at Expert. Only dedicated classes can get a "skill" to Mastery.

I am a fan of having a formalized downtime mechanic and actions as I feel it makes puts like spell research, healing, info gathering, and training for things over time into a format that players can engage with and have a firm idea of what they need to do for such activities. IMHO it also takes a a lot of the workload off of the GM to have to decide such things each time they come up.

That's a good cap IMHO, add the law of diminishing returns and you have protected niches while allowing anyone to learn ALMOST anything, since inherent powers (Like magic or psionics) can't be learned.

QuoteWhat you just described is the AD&D2e way, and it happens off screen, which is one of the things I don't want, I want the learning to be ON-Screen.

I have to say that sounds like CHORE. I think Burning Wheel had somehow simmilar system.
I'd considering class-level based level of AD&D rather link all advancement tightly to level.
But while it's IMHO wiser overall to put all advancement in like rest time between adventures when leveling happen I think you can achieve some level of ON-Screen by giving people some minimal RP demands. Like you have some list of skills and you have to use them in game (aside of between-adventures training) to spend Skill Point on them during Advance.
Way simpler than counting every successful use of skill, all around the clock.

QuoteThat's a good cap IMHO, add the law of diminishing returns and you have protected niches while allowing anyone to learn ALMOST anything, since inherent powers (Like magic or psionics) can't be learned.

Question is - does thief has unique battle abilities that would distinguish him even without being best actual thief (therefore evolving him more into rogue.). If there are such - then mundane skill protection seems less important. There is also - another 3e inspired option - give Thief more skill advances per level to spend.
How many Classes are u using overall?

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 01, 2021, 07:34:04 PM

QuoteWhat you just described is the AD&D2e way, and it happens off screen, which is one of the things I don't want, I want the learning to be ON-Screen.

I have to say that sounds like CHORE. I think Burning Wheel had somehow simmilar system.
I'd considering class-level based level of AD&D rather link all advancement tightly to level.
But while it's IMHO wiser overall to put all advancement in like rest time between adventures when leveling happen I think you can achieve some level of ON-Screen by giving people some minimal RP demands. Like you have some list of skills and you have to use them in game (aside of between-adventures training) to spend Skill Point on them during Advance.
Way simpler than counting every successful use of skill, all around the clock.

QuoteThat's a good cap IMHO, add the law of diminishing returns and you have protected niches while allowing anyone to learn ALMOST anything, since inherent powers (Like magic or psionics) can't be learned.

Question is - does thief has unique battle abilities that would distinguish him even without being best actual thief (therefore evolving him more into rogue.). If there are such - then mundane skill protection seems less important. There is also - another 3e inspired option - give Thief more skill advances per level to spend.
How many Classes are u using overall?

4 classes

Sorta, kinda, maybe, could be

Behold, a skill system!