TheRPGSite

Let's keep the superhero theme going!

I didn't want to derail this thread about supers RPGs (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=20555), but I had some questions about a game in particular.

The first RPG I ever owned was the Marvel Super Heroes Basic Set by TSR (otherwise called FASERIP, I believe). I begged for it and my parents obliged. I loved everything about it but didn't really understand it (I was a little young for it and had no experience with RPGs yet).

I have read through it before and have some idea of how the system works, but there were some things I thought were wonky (like how no matter how good you rolled, if your skill/power was less than an opponent's Toughness, you were wasting your time, but I am probably misremembering that). I never played it, but I do own it, so I would like to hear other people's experience with the game.

In the aforementioned thread, TristramEvans mentioned he used it for other settings. Has anyone else done this? How does it work for Supers action?

Also, what is the difference between the Basic Set and Advanced Set? Wikipedia claims the two systems are identical, so is it just the peripherals that differ? Is there anything in the Advanced Set that makes the game more complete?

You want the Advanced Set unless you're introducing the game to younger non-roleplayers.  There are fan-written updates (an 'Expert' edition, for example), but I'm not familiar with the differences there.

FASERIP is a great system, and you can do anything with it.  I think it holds up at street level and at the cosmic end.  This game was doing 'genre emulation via clever rules' before I even knew what such a thing was.

I don't think you're misremembering the "I can't hurt this guy" effect (Aunt May can't hurt Galactus), but I think you may be misremembering it as more of an issue than it is in the rules.

I've probably had more fun-units with FASERIP than with any other single game out there, over the years.  The whole thing is pretty much designed for winging it.

The entire line is up at classicmarvelforever.com and worth checking out.

The Advanced set has a few more options, I don't recall the rules for building special vehicles or bases being in either Basic Set, but I don't have them to reference on hand.

I've run games of numerous sorts with MSH, fantasy, superheroes, pulp, I've even run an espionage game using it.

In general the basic mechanics hold up very very well. There are things that I did differently in my superhero game, but that is coming with hindsight on what other games did right or wrong. I spend money to have my last set of Advanced MSH books bound in hardcover for good reason. I still use them.

Quote from: VectorSigma;470495I don't think you're misremembering the "I can't hurt this guy" effect (Aunt May can't hurt Galactus), but I think you may be misremembering it as more of an issue than it is in the rules.

Yes and no.
There are Martial Arts Talents that allow you to stun or slam an opponent, even if the attack isn't >= to your opponents Endurance, and another Martial Art Talent, that let's you stun or slam an opponent, even if your attack didn't pass Body Armor (and I think Force Fields).

It let's talented guys like Cap get a lucky hit on Hulk.

Quote from: Silverlion;470508The Advanced set has a few more options, I don't recall the rules for building special vehicles or bases being in either Basic Set, but I don't have them to reference on hand.

I believe bases and vehicles were in the Avengers Assemble box set, but I'd need to check...

I "discovered" MSH only recently. I had the "Basic Revisited" from back when it first came out never actually did anything with it. As you said, it seemed kind of wonky.

When I did actually get round to run it, it was sensational. From the very first session my players were saying things like "and to think we could have been playing this all along".

Quote from: Novastar;470518I believe bases and vehicles were in the Avengers Assemble box set, but I'd need to check...

They're also in the Advanced Set. Among other things. Lots of good resources for the game. From Realms of Magic, Avengers, X-men, and Spider-man boxed sets and books, and so on and so forth. Often multiple versions (Example X-men had Children of the Atom, X-men boxed set, X-forces boxed set, and a few modules, including the Day of Future Past series of modules.)

Damage comes from strength or powers you can damage someone even if they have a higher Endurance than your strength, you just can't stun or slam them easily. However Body Armor and Force Fields will stop you pretty much cold, but talents help overcome that, or changing types of attacks. Never forget, power stunts, charges, talents, and environmental effects can change the play field so to speak. So you can't damage someone in body armor, bury them in rubble heavier than they can lift, or hit them with energy attacks, or drop them in water by grappling them, and so on. They encouraged thinking around the problem, something too few games do (instead of overwhelming them with more force.)

That would be one of my three gripes with the system:

1) It doesn't model low-power characters as well; want to play The Phantom, or The Green Hornet, or other fairly normal, albiet heroic characters? Get ready to burn thru a lot of Karma, just to be effective.

2) Body Armor and Force Field are too good. Even at low levels, they'll make you bulletproof, where only superpowers can hurt you.

3) Dodging is a fool's game, especially if you have one of the above.

EDIT: Now, it's still one of my favorite Superhero games, don't get me wrong. You just need to be aware of it's limitations.

Quote from: Novastar;470594That would be one of my three gripes with the system:

1) It doesn't model low-power characters as well; want to play The Phantom, or The Green Hornet, or other fairly normal, albiet heroic characters? Get ready to burn thru a lot of Karma, just to be effective.

2) Body Armor and Force Field are too good. Even at low levels, they'll make you bulletproof, where only superpowers can hurt you.

3) Dodging is a fool's game, especially if you have one of the above.

EDIT: Now, it's still one of my favorite Superhero games, don't get me wrong. You just need to be aware of it's limitations.

I share those exact same three issues.  For lower-power, street level supers, I'd rather use Palladium's Heroes Unlimited combined with TMNT / Ninjas and Superspies.  It does gritty punching and kicking style supers better.

But for high-powered supers, the FASERIP system is perfect.  The karma system works excellent when you use it, the game moves fast, and the real-world equivalents to all the numbers (something a great many supers lack) means you can quickly stat things up and make rulings on the fly.

Oddly, I've hated pretty much every other set of supers rules I've ever seen.

Quote from: Novastar;470594That would be one of my three gripes with the system:.

There are simple ways to resolve those. Some with house rules. The game didn't ever get a 2E Advanced set which is a shame. I usually leave the rules as is these days, but I've experimented with tons and tons of house rules since I discovered the game.

How do you work around the force field, armor problems? Give them some kind of "health" stat? Make them harder to come by in game?

Just sigh and deal with it?

Quote from: Kaz;470638How do you work around the force field, armor problems? Give them some kind of "health" stat? Make them harder to come by in game?

Just sigh and deal with it?

I usually smile and let players find a way around it. Since usually I GM. Especially since I use the core Advanced rules so each one is weaker against different attacks (Body Armor is 20 points less effective against energy attacks)

There is an optional rule I've tried a few times.

A Green hit does nominal damage and is deflected by defenses.

A Yellow results is a better hit and is deflected by defenses, but requires a roll to see if the Forcefield is knocked down.

A red result knocks a force field down, but doesn't do damage through the shield. It might thus knock out the target by feedback.  Body armor can't fall, therefore the attack gets +1 CS damage on a red result.

That means that places where its close its a chance do damage anyway through the effects. Or to set it up in a forcefields case to let allies help take him or her down.

If its significantly higher than any of the PCs can do in damage, that's a GMing side problem, not a rules problem. You need to give the PC's a chance. Although, sometimes this is a case of solving around the issue. (Tricks, traps, special gear and so on.)  The game isn't just about who can wail on someone to win--sometimes its about creative solutions to stopping a foe. (I've had a foe talked down, one buried in not dry cement then frozen, and so on.)

Quote from: Kaz;470638How do you work around the force field, armor problems? Give them some kind of "health" stat? Make them harder to come by in game?

Just sigh and deal with it?

For me the commonly raised forcefield & armour issues are a feature of the system, not a bug. In comics, there is a strong and prevalent use of archetypes and this lends to a level of niche protection , especially in team books. The Hulk is the strong guy or brick. If something needs lifting, he can do it, if an enemy is strong, Hulk gets madder and stronger, etc. The same goes for characters who are armoured (Iron Man) or have forcefields (Invisible Woman). It's extraordinary circumstances and takes an extraordinarily powerful foe for either Iron Man's armour to get pierced, or for Sue's Forcefield to fail to protect her from an attack. Forcefields, however, are pretty rare in the MU, so I would not allow more than one player in a team to have forcefield and if they did, it would be "their thing" (i.e. major power). Forcefields provide their own limitations on characters in that they cannot (except for certain cosmic-level characters, or world-conquerors like Doom) attack and keep up a forcfield at the same time. They are basically substituting their character's ability to affect in-game events to prevent their character from harm for the panel.

As for armour, it's either one of the character's powers, meaning they are very hard to physically hurt like The Hulk or The Juggernaut, or their thing is a suit of armour like Tony Stark and Co. Body armour, as equipment, does not provide a great deal of protection: The Punisher's Kevlar armour, for example, only provides Good protection; heavy armour like Dragonskin (the IRL kind, not actual Dragon skin) is only about Excellent protection, meaning if a givewn character has even a little bit of superhuman strength or a decently-rated form of attack, it's not going to be that hard to get past.

In the comics, if Spidey goes up against the Juggernaut, it would be suicidal for him to stand there and try to trade blows. Ditto Doom. He lures him into a pool of cement, or tricks him to stepping out onto ice, or lures into the water and drops a power line on him, etc.

If I send characters up against a villain with high armour, it's going to be deliberate, rare, and mainly because half the fun of the system is the methods it provides to come up with creative solutions. Maybe a character is n't strong enough to hit their opponent and cause damage, but if they can score a Slam result, they can knock the foe into the side of a building, which will cause damage equal to the wall's MS. And maybe the PC isn't strong enough to get a slam result with their fists, but if they use a traffic-light post to swing at the villain, the opponent's Endurance is compared to the MS of the weapon rather than the character's strength.

In the end, though, a simple "fix" is=

Green Result = -1 Damage
Yellow Result = Normal damage
Red Result = +1 Damage
Natural 100 = Roll the dice again and add the result to the overall damage.

The thing to remember about MSH is that it models the comics much, much better than other superhero RPGs.  Defenses like Force Field and Resistance and Body Armor are almost always Force Field/Resistance/Armor vs. a very specific thing.  It's not like a  lot of other superhero RPGs where a defense stat defends against everything.  For any given defense superpower, it's highly likely that there will be a player in the group with some kind of power the defense doesn't block.

Sidebar: My biggest problem with MSH has always been the Universal Table.  It just takes too bloody long to resolve things with it.

Quote from: daniel_ream;470929Sidebar: My biggest problem with MSH has always been the Universal Table.  It just takes too bloody long to resolve things with it.

You can closely approximate the Universal Table with a 1d20 roll and a second critical check die (which there are a couple options for).  

Rank Name : d20 Target Number

Shift 0  :  14
Feeble  :  13
Poor  :  12
Typical  :  11
Good  :  10
Excellent  :  9
Remarkable  :  8
Incredible  :  7
Amazing  :  6
Monstrous  :  5
Unearthly  :  4
Shift X  :  3
Class 1000  :  2

* If you match the d20 target number, the result is Green.
* If you match the d20 target number by 6 or more, the result is Yellow.
* If you match the d20 target number by 6 and get a crit check, the result is Red.  

The easiest crit check would be to roll a 1d6 and if you get a 6, it's a crit.  That's reasonably close.  

A very close approximation would be to have a custom die, like a d12 with faces 16, 12, 8, 4, and eight 1s.   If the crit die beats your target, you get a crit check.

Quote from: jhkim;470942You can closely approximate the Universal Table with a 1d20 roll and a second critical check die (which there are a couple options for).

Oh, you can exactly duplicate the Universal Table by reverse engineering the formula for the ranges.  That's what Mayfair did for Chill! to avoid getting sued.  I find that figuring ranges on the fly takes even longer than just looking it up on a table for my groups.

We have a strong bias for very, very fast dice mechanics.  We like rolling dice; we do not like taking more time to figure out what the dice meant than it took to roll them.  So far D6 Legend and ORE are our go-to choices.

Quote from: daniel_ream;470943Oh, you can exactly duplicate the Universal Table by reverse engineering the formula for the ranges.  That's what Mayfair did for Chill! to avoid getting sued.  I find that figuring ranges on the fly takes even longer than just looking it up on a table for my groups.

We have a strong bias for very, very fast dice mechanics.  We like rolling dice; we do not like taking more time to figure out what the dice meant than it took to roll them.  So far D6 Legend and ORE are our go-to choices.

Interesting.  I think that the 1d20 vs. a fixed target number is at least as fast as ORE's number-matching dice pool.  

In my experience, a simple die+number is very fast.  For example, I found the Cinematic Unisystem (i.e. the Buffy RPG) to be much faster than any dice pool system I recall.  And 1d20 vs. target is nearly as fast.

Quote from: jhkim;470947Interesting.  I think that the 1d20 vs. a fixed target number is at least as fast as ORE's number-matching dice pool.  

In my experience, a simple die+number is very fast.  For example, I found the Cinematic Unisystem (i.e. the Buffy RPG) to be much faster than any dice pool system I recall.  And 1d20 vs. target is nearly as fast.

I stick with the chart myself, its one chart in play that you have to look at, that's really easy. Takes most people longer to figure out their +X bonuses in other games regardless of the +X.

Quote from: jhkim;470947Interesting.  I think that the 1d20 vs. a fixed target number is at least as fast as ORE's number-matching dice pool.  

In my experience, a simple die+number is very fast.  For example, I found the Cinematic Unisystem (i.e. the Buffy RPG) to be much faster than any dice pool system I recall.  And 1d20 vs. target is nearly as fast.

For the computer scientists among us, O() notation is a useful tool for determining how time-consuming a dice mechanic is.  Using the MSH Universal Table has more discrete steps in resolving a single action than is apparent at first blush.

D6 Legend is still the fastest system we've used in action.  We cut down ORE to d6es to speed it up some.

Quote from: Silverlion;470952I stick with the chart myself, its one chart in play that you have to look at, that's really easy. Takes most people longer to figure out their +X bonuses in other games regardless of the +X.

I find it really easy and accessible as well, but I also usually put "cheat sheets" on the character sheets such as:

Fb:  61/91/100
Pr:  56/86/100
Ty:  51/81/98
Gd: 46/76/98
Ex: 41/71/95
Rm: 36/66/95
In:  31/61/91
Am: 26/56/91
Mn:  21/51/86
Un:  16/46/86

That is really clever. I am swiping that!

Quote from: Kaz;471013That is really clever. I am swiping that!

Indeed it is, someone, was it you Tristam? Did an entire PC sheet like that. I wish I knew where it was...

Quote from: Silverlion;471040Indeed it is, someone, was it you Tristam? Did an entire PC sheet like that. I wish I knew where it was...

Alas, t'wasn't me, but I'm checking out the usual suspects right now...

Doesn't seen to be on Classic Marvel Forever, but they do have the nifty
Encounter Whee (http://www.classicmarvelforever.com/cms/assets/files/other_stuff/downloads/download.php?file=Netaccessory_encounter_wheel.pdf)l that can be used instead of the chart.

Was it the 4c Character Sheet (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=78881&filters=0_0_0_31808_0)?

No I don't think it was the 4C one...hrms, I'll look around. It was on one of the forums..

Aha here (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4-MRzRXNbMcYmE2OTI4ZGYtOWFmMS00MDRiLTg2ZmUtMjVmMzhmNDM1MDkz&hl=en_US&pli=1) it is, but it seems it won't show in Google docs, you have to download it..

Quote from: Novastar;470594That would be one of my three gripes with the system:

1) It doesn't model low-power characters as well; want to play The Phantom, or The Green Hornet, or other fairly normal, albiet heroic characters? Get ready to burn thru a lot of Karma, just to be effective.

2) Body Armor and Force Field are too good. Even at low levels, they'll make you bulletproof, where only superpowers can hurt you.

3) Dodging is a fool's game, especially if you have one of the above.

EDIT: Now, it's still one of my favorite Superhero games, don't get me wrong. You just need to be aware of it's limitations.

Depends on what level you get on the power roll for your Armor (although Armor is more effective) or Force Field (a FF is -10 points less vs. bullets also), Gun damage can range from simple Pistols of 6pts all the way up to Machine Guns that do 20pts, so a Force Field of say Excellent (20) vs. a MG that does 20pts would only protect as a Good (10) shield although Armor of Excellent (20)+ is impervious to any guns.

But you also have to consider the odds of even rolling up a character with one of these two powers and then getting a decent power strength level roll as well.  I have seen players roll up Armor Poor (3) starting out and complaining, I'm like "it's good enough to slow down a bullet somewhat".

But yeah, low-power level games are hard to do in any super hero game, IMO.

Quote from: flyingcircus;471688But you also have to consider the odds of even rolling up a character with one of these two powers and then getting a decent power strength level roll as well.  I have seen players roll up Armor Poor (3) starting out and complaining, I'm like "it's good enough to slow down a bullet somewhat".

But yeah, low-power level games are hard to do in any super hero game, IMO.

It isn't hard to get a good power roll. Since everyone rolls on the Robot Column for power ranks. There is a decent chance of a solid power roll on that chart. I had problems with Monstrous Body Armor (his only power in one game.) Unfortunately, he lacked Life Support, or Resistance to Gases, Acids, and other things. I had him knocked out by a villain named Smoke, and turned into a Rat (sans mechanical body armor) by another allied villain named Streamer.

The two main issues I have with it are:

1. Spider-Man is hosed, since dodging uses up your action.
2. The armor vs. damage thing has a less obvious problem. If you are using the Advanced rules, each rank represents a range of static numbers. Two guys could have identical Armor and Strength, but if they differ by only a point or two, one can wear the other down while the second can do nothing. Imagine, if you will, two guys, one using a 9mm pistol and steel-jacketed rounds and reinforced kevlar armor, and the other guy using a smaller calibre pistol and wearing kevlar armor with slightly fewer armor plates, and you have an idea of how game balance can wobble on very small numbers. My example is kind of fake in that virtually all guns and armor of the same type will be given identical stats in FASERIP; the real example would be a guy with Excellent and Excellent as a rolled-up character going up against a published Marvel character with Excellent and Excellent ranks.

Quote from: pawsplay;471707The two main issues I have with it are:

1. Spider-Man is hosed, since dodging uses up your action.

Man what?  
A character who is dodging can only move half of their regular speed, can't make a charging attack in the same round, and gets a -1 to attack. You can still attack, in fact, most rounds you should be dodging , unless you;'re the Hulk. Additionally, because of his Spider-sense, every time a foe lands a successful "hit" on spidey, he gets to immediately make a "saving throw" of his Spider-sense rank and if he succeeds (green or better), the attack misses.

Played right, Spider-man is almost impossible to lay a finger on and will still be beating the crap out of you. Because he read the rules and knows that he can most certainly attack as well as dodge.

Quote2. The armor vs. damage thing has a less obvious problem. If you are using the Advanced rules, each rank represents a range of static numbers. Two guys could have identical Armor and Strength, but if they differ by only a point or two, one can wear the other down while the second can do nothing. Imagine, if you will, two guys, one using a 9mm pistol and steel-jacketed rounds and reinforced kevlar armor, and the other guy using a smaller calibre pistol and wearing kevlar armor with slightly fewer armor plates, and you have an idea of how game balance can wobble on very small numbers. My example is kind of fake in that virtually all guns and armor of the same type will be given identical stats in FASERIP; the real example would be a guy with Excellent and Excellent as a rolled-up character going up against a published Marvel character with Excellent and Excellent ranks.

The Advanced rules added a lot of, IMO, unnecessary rules and detail to the game. I prefer using the Basic revised game and adding bits from the Advanced Game as if it were a modular set of options, like GURPs. There are some brilliant bits (the HQ building rules are very popular among players I've found, for instance), but I think FASERIP works best as a light system with the Rankings viewed as a rough estimation of a character's abilities, rather than a specific quantification (sort of like weight classes in major sports).

Quote from: TristramEvans;471722Man what?  
A character who is dodging can only move half of their regular speed, can't make a charging attack in the same round, and gets a -1 to attack. You can still attack, in fact, most rounds you should be dodging , unless you;'re the Hulk. Additionally, because of his Spider-sense, every time a foe lands a successful "hit" on spidey, he gets to immediately make a "saving throw" of his Spider-sense rank and if he succeeds (green or better), the attack misses.

Played right, Spider-man is almost impossible to lay a finger on and will still be beating the crap out of you. Because he read the rules and knows that he can most certainly attack as well as dodge.

Holy smokes!
How'd I miss that?!?
Though in Revised Basic, they just made it a blanket -2CS shift to hit.
I'm still not sure a -0/-10/-20/-30% miss chance is a huge bonus, but it makes the Option A LOT more palatable.
Thanks, TristramEvans! :D

Huh, I spent a lot of time looking for such a rule and never found it. Page #, for future reference?

EDIT: Hmm, and Four Colors doesn't seem to have a rule like that at all, just for dodging and moving, or moving and attacking.

Pg. 27 of the Advanced Player's Guide

"Dodging is an Agility Ability, and reduces the attacking column shift. A character who is Dodging may only move half his speed in any turn, may not engage in a charging attack, and may perform one other action that turn, maximum (including making an attack)."

Looks like it is a -2CS to Fighting, rather than -1 (sometimes I've been using certain houserules so long I forget they're not part of the system).

In the original basic set, I know that Dodging was the only defensive option (Evading and Blocking were added in the Advanced set), but I seem to recall the Basic Revised kept all three types. Off to check...

Ok, here it is, pg 24 of the Basic Revised:

"A character who dodges announces his intentions to do so at the start of the turn. He may perform other actions (such as hitting an opponent), but all his FEATS have a -2CS penalty."