Quote from: Cam Banks;896201MHR can be played across quite a spectrum of comfort levels with things like truly story-like assets (such as "New York protects its own!") at one end and explicitly physics-based assets (like "sack of hammers!") at the other. I've seen some folks play it super light on the story assets and hard on the gear/physics/defined environment assets, and vice versa.
The reason it ended up this way is that I don't personally have a strong preference one way or the other - I am just as happy playing D&D as I am playing Gumshoe or Dogs in the Vineyard. When I'm designing games I usually aim for some kind of intended play experience but once folks get hold of an RPG they're going to play it however the hell they want to.
Cheers,
Cam
I understood Assets, Resources and Complications as the MHRP systems way of representing the effects of character actions. (and their degree of Narrative Weight) so as mainly in character items. And that though don't represent techniques like Dramatic Editing though the term "creating" is used to describe how they're brought into play.
For example, if I want my stealthy character to sneak attack an opponent I could create an Asset "Concealed" for myself and use it an attack based action. But unless there was some aspect of the character or the scene that made it possible I couldn't simply edit things to give my character that advantage if they were standing face to face with their opponent.
There would be some fringe cases such as when the crowd of on lookers starts heckling and tossing things at Green Goblin, distracting him for a moment in one of the Spider man movies. In play terms the character didn't seem to actively try to create a "Supportive Crowd" Asset and "Heckled" Complication for Goblin. But it was still the result of an aspect of the character (his general popularity and positive relationship with public). In Hero System terms it could have been a Positive Pre attack or a gm call/use of Reputation Perk.
Am I looking at them the intended way?
We got to MHR in this forum by talking about it in the Narrative Thread, but MHR's been ruled an "Other Game" in the past. I have no idea if Pundit even cares about the definition of Traditional RPG anymore, but...MHR ain't it if he does.
Quote from: CRKrueger;896612We got to MHR in this forum by talking about it in the Narrative Thread, but MHR's been ruled an "Other Game" in the past. I have no idea if Pundit even cares about the definition of Traditional RPG anymore, but...MHR ain't it if he does.
The only other thread I've seen on MHRP have been here though I haven't looked a great deal in Other Games. and when I asked about it earlier no one seemed to care. If the Mods feel its inappropriate they can move it or close it. I can't do either.
Batman having a Distinction of Murdered Parents is a fact of the character. Invoking that by using the name of his Mother to get him from killing you isn't something Superman was conscious of, but Zak Snyder was. Just because something is an aspect of a character, doesn't mean that when you use mechanics to play upon those aspects, the character is conscious of the action. OOC mechanics don't mean "having nothing to do with my character and created out of thin air", they mean "mechanics that represent decisions the character is not making or in some cases, cannot make".
Before this gets too off topic, I'm not trying to prove MHRP is a so called "Traditional game" vs being a "Story game" but clarify what and how Assets, Resources and Complications were intended to work. Distinctions and Stress are something else again and I've already said MHRP has some some plot manipulation rules in play.
Speaking of Distinctions, looking over some of my notes (my physical book has wandered off somewhere), reminds me that they were one area were things were cloudy. You always got A Distinction for your dice pool but there seemed to be a difference of opinion and interpretation on where that Distinction could come from.
A character's Distinctions were always available and Scene Distinctions unless they were eliminated in the course of play but some felt you could Distinctions from any source as long as the made sense for the roll including NPCs'. It may have been more clear in other iterations of the Cortex system.
Quote from: Nexus;896598Am I looking at them the intended way?
As Cam has said, either way is correct. I don't think "intended" is terribly meaningful here.
Just to nitpick the specific Green Goblin scene, though:
QuoteIn Hero System terms it could have been a Positive Pre attack
No, because Spidey took no action. A PRE attack is still an action. Even if he did, Spidey having a PRE high enough to convince a crowd to attack a supervillain on his behalf isn't consistent with the character.
Quoteor a gm call/use of Reputation Perk.
Spidey's reputation in New York has consistently been bad, with only individual exceptions, thanks to JJJ's muckraking. Again, not consistent with the character.
All of this aside: the thing about that scene is that regardless of their Distinctions, Power Sets or Specialties,
any MHR character's player could have created that asset. They don't have to have the MHR equivalent of a high PRE or a pre-existing Reputation Perk. Assets, Complications and Resources absolutely can be used to create fictional elements that did not exist prior to the player making the roll, as long as the rest of the table agrees that the element is reasonable. You can even go full-on FATE Aspect style if you want, creating Assets like "Sense of Urgency" or "Atmosphere of Paranoia".
It's also possible to play MHR straight reality-sim style, where no Asset, Complication or Resource can be created unless it represents a tangible object in the fiction whose existence is not contradicted by implication. The game works fine both ways.
Quote from: daniel_ream;896677It's also possible to play MHR straight reality-sim style, where no Asset, Complication or Resource can be created unless it represents a tangible object in the fiction whose existence is not contradicted by implication. The game works fine both ways.
Yep. It's closer to trad than Fate, and I've seen the people who actually care about the trad/non-trad distinction bend over backwards for that so hard it's a wonder they don't snap their spines. So rock on and make your assets in whatever way your table is cool with.
Yup. As I said in the other thread, it gets played both ways, or combinations of both, depending on the scenario - and folks haven't had any trouble using the way that suits them most at the table.
Really, the bulk of complaints I've had about MHR haven't been about whether or not it's a trad game, but whether or not it has a "real" character creation system, and how difficult it is for some people to manage the probabilities of the dice given how many are often rolled together and of different sizes, etc. Probability nerds either love it or hate it.
Cheers,
Cam
Quote from: Cam Banks;896810Really, the bulk of complaints I've had about MHR haven't been about whether or not it's a trad game, but whether or not it has a "real" character creation system, and how difficult it is for some people to manage the probabilities of the dice given how many are often rolled together and of different sizes, etc. Probability nerds either love it or hate it.
Please take this as constructive criticism for whatever iteration of Marvel Heroic succeeds the licensed version[1]: the game system is solid, but writing in the main book is terribly unclear. I've bought copies of the OM for most of my players, and we've all abandoned them in favour of a couple of fan-created cheat sheets that elucidate what your options are at any moment. In particular, the book needs a
lot more examples of "I want to do this" -> "use the mechanics this way" or "comic book panel" -> "MHR mechanics".
As for the dice probabilities and chargen complaints - I don't think it's possible to overestimate the influence Champions has had on the superhero RPG niche. I'd argue it's as significant as D&D's impact on fantasy. Long-time superhero RPG players literally cannot conceive of a superhero RPG that isn't composed of the same design elements as Champions[2], and the simple notion that you can give your guy as many d12s as you want
because that isn't actually making him any more powerful just isn't going to be apparent to them. Reality-sim players aren't going to like MHR. I don't think it's worth trying to cozen them.
Topic shift, as long as I've got you here: over on the now-defunct MWP fora I espoused an MHR play style that is expressly antagonistic between the Watcher and the players. In Action Scenes, the Watcher should be trying his hardest to ramp up the Doom Pool to 2D12 and end the scene disastrously for the players, and the players should be trying their hardest to keep the Doom Pool low and force the Watcher to expend Doom dice. I think this puts some sense of stake back into the game, which can otherwise feel a little Mother May I. Since the game implicitly disallows the Watcher pulling a "Rocks fall. Everyone dies." without expending a metagame resource, it occurred to me that this might have been intentional.
So, two questions:
1) Was it intentional?
2) If it wasn't, is there anything in this mode of play that's likely to break, mechanically?
[1] I know, I know. But a man can dream.
[2] It's almost like they have...brain damage.
Sure, that's a valid way to play it. I don't like omnipotent GMs. I like to saddle them with limits and resources just like the players. In MHR, the Watcher has tremendous power over how a scene begins, who's there in it, where it is, who they're going to fight, etc. Players could say "we go investigate the warehouse" and the Watcher can say "that's nice but anyway, next week after the warehouse reveals nothing, there's an attack on your HQ and only Iron Man and Spider-Woman are there" which is a great deal of power. But once the scene starts, the GM has to use Doom to do anything more than making choices for the Watcher characters.
So yeah, I don't think anything's going to break if you do that, but your players might start to be pissed off if you set up the scene entirely in your favor over and over again, making that limitation of Doom use less critical.
BTW, Margaret Weis Productions has said they're going to do a new edition of the Heroic rules without the Marvel license. I don't have much role in that at the moment, since I don't work for MWP any longer and I never owned Cortex Plus to begin with (all work for hire).
Cheers,
Cam
Well, that was the only reason I could see it working: the Watcher has well-defined limits on what he can and can't do and a metagame resource he has to budget. A little bit like the Beast Hunters RPG, really. The only snag I found was the "spend a Doom die to add more Watcher characters to the scene" or to have something happen, like the villainous SHIELD helicarrier showing up or something. That seems abusable. I thought that maybe requiring the Watcher to have all the options written on cards he has to reveal when he uses them and when he's out, he's out, but that seemed like it was getting too gamey. The goal is for the players to feel like they've actually beat the villains via clever play rather than the Watcher just handing it to them because drama.
QuoteMargaret Weis Productions has said they're going to do a new edition of the Heroic rules without the Marvel license.
They've been saying that for years now. I'll believe it when I see the inevitable kickstarter. I have five copies of the OM and the Civil War HB; I'm set for life.
Quote from: Cam Banks;896959Sure, that's a valid way to play it. I don't like omnipotent GMs. I like to saddle them with limits and resources just like the players. In MHR, the Watcher has tremendous power over how a scene begins, who's there in it, where it is, who they're going to fight, etc. Players could say "we go investigate the warehouse" and the Watcher can say "that's nice but anyway, next week after the warehouse reveals nothing, there's an attack on your HQ and only Iron Man and Spider-Woman are there" which is a great deal of power. But once the scene starts, the GM has to use Doom to do anything more than making choices for the Watcher characters.
Just because I like talking about MHR...
My wife & I have played it quite a bit via the
Mythic GME. It's great, and we were honestly surprised at how well MHR worked with the GME. We kind of happily bounce along, doing our heroic thing, which often results in the Doom Pool building up and smacking us around for awhile, so it's pretty much like the comics we remember ('80s-era
Teen Titans, X-Men, Legion of Super-Heroes, etc.
When I ran it for a small group (my wife and 2 others)...
boy did the new kids keep a nervous eye on the Doom Pool. They were having fun with the game, but they were staying much more aware of the "game element" of the pool, and how it could turn against them at some point and really ruin their characters' day. They didn't see it as a limitation of my GM power, as much as something to attempt to whittle down (which is something I've seen in
Deadlands games with the GM's supply of poker chips as well).
Cortex Plus Heroic had been my system of choice for a while until MWP dropped the ball. The sudden cessation of the game line itself, combined with a lack of resources to get new players involved, combined with them temporarily closing their forums forever made it really hard to get people interested. The only way I managed it with play by post was to basically write out the rules for players since it's not as if there is a book for sale, at least not until the Kickstarter. I agree with daniel_ream that I'll believe it when I see it.
Amusingly I couldn't figure out the game for the life of me and my Eureka moment actually came while I was reading through Fate Core. Added amusement as there are elements of Fate I like but I really have no desire to run it as a game on it's own. The Hacker's Guide has been very useful and just about all my games have had hacks of some sort. For instance I often remove Affiliation and replace it with something else. In my own Urban Fantasy campaign (kind of a post Cyberpunk that's probably closer to Alternity's Dark Matter than Shadowrun) I replace Affiliation with the Approaches adapted (some are renamed) from Fate Accelerated. I had considered using Ability Scores, but I like how Approaches are more dynamic. Superhuman ability scores can be emulated through Power Sets/Signature Assets (I consider them the same mechanically). For NPCs unless they are major, Affiliation gets replaced with Power Level, kind of like what they do with creatures in Fantasy Heroic. Most player characters would be a d8 in comparison. It's handy because mobs can be added simply by adding more dice.
It might sound weird but I really do have a specific reason for using Affiliations. Mostly because they are adjectives which can be turned into adverbs. I tend to use the skill system from Firefly, which are verbs. So basically, you can make sentences out of your actions: I [Approach]ly [Skill] the thing with some distinction added. I have the syntax written down somewhere since my memory is atrocious.
I like the Doom Pool and yes it is a cause for player concern. They know that once I get 2d12 I can shut down a scene either in my favor or theirs. That is very handy for keeping the plot moving along. Since I would run the game in play by post, I replaced the initiative system with Time Dice and Time Steps from the Hacker's Guide. Sure, you can add a d12 to your Pool every round if you want to, but it's going to make the Time Steps go faster. Not a good thing if you're trying to evacuate civilians before a bomb goes off or some such.
One of the reasons I hack the hell out of MHR is because I like stuff. I think Assets should be treated as stuff and as such I have mechanisms in place to allow Scene Assets to become Persistent Assets through spending XP. Should the hack I wrote for Jadepunk ever become a reality, it will use such a mechanic. Basically it's similar to how you improve Power Sets, since they are just non physical Persistent Signature Assets. Basically, if you find something cool during play and would like to keep it, there should be some mechanism in place to allow for that.
Quote from: Krimson;897041Cortex Plus Heroic had been my system of choice for a while until MWP dropped the ball. The sudden cessation of the game line itself, combined with a lack of resources to get new players involved, combined with them temporarily closing their forums forever made it really hard to get people interested.
I registered neocortex.online a while back, and once I get the time to set up the forum and populate it I'll release it into the wild. Be nice if the five of us still playing Cortex+ had a place to discus it.
They released their kit for publishing your own material on DriveThru so I'll be checking that out. I have a hack I wrote for Jadepunk though I have no idea if or when they are going to move forward with that as I haven't chatted with Ryan for a while. I'll probably use it for my own setting though. I wouldn't mind a place for chat, though I generally avoid Enworld.