I am a bit of a martial arts enthusiast, but I've only rarely run martial arts heavy campaigns. Presently thinking of running something. I have a copy of Feng Shui and might use that. But I am wondering what other systems people would suggest martial arts. More worried about the mechanics capturing the feel of martial arts movies than being realistic portrayals of real fighting styles (but if anyone can suggest something for more realistic and gritty martial arts feel free as I may want to run a game like that in the future as well). Also any issues people found with Feng Shui would be helpful (i've read the book, and played a little of it, but haven't really probed the thing for problems).
Ninjas & Superspies is a great system, for the most part. The Palladium combat system lends itself well to the "duck and thrust" of the art of fighting with all the different rolls.
I really can't say I've encountered a better one, though I am a big fan of what you can do with D20. No one has really covered martial arts in and of itself except in just a few of the more obscure games.
You say you're an enthusiast, so I'll assume you practice one or more actual forms yourself. What forms you study can have a profound impact on how you might view a system - for instance, Shotokan or Tae Kwon Do students are going to have a different outlook than Kung Fu students, and there are different schools of thought in every lineage.
If you're into MMA, that's not really martial arts. That's wrestling with elbows and kicks allowed - sort of a neutered form of pit fighting.
Quote from: Blackhand;480126You say you're an enthusiast, so I'll assume you practice one or more actual forms yourself. What forms you study can have a profound impact on how you might view a system - for instance, Shotokan or Tae Kwon Do students are going to have a different outlook than Kung Fu students, and there are different schools of thought in every lineage.
If you're into MMA, that's not really martial arts. That's wrestling with elbows and kicks allowed - sort of a neutered form of pit fighting.
To me these are all martial arts. But that is a whole other conversation (and not really related to RPGs).
Love martial arts films but also practice (at least until very recently). I have mostly done boxing and thai boxing. But started out in Tae Kwon Do. Did some sanshou and MMA as well. But what I am looking for in-game is more cinematic stuff I think. I love thai boxing, but have only seen it made to look great on screen by Tony Jaa. And as much as I love the Rocky movies, not looking for that type of combat in the game. Really thinking more of Jet Li and Jackie Chan movies.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480133To me these are all martial arts. But that is a whole other conversation (and not really related to RPGs).
Love martial arts films but also practice (at least until very recently). I have mostly done boxing and thai boxing. But started out in Tae Kwon Do. Did some sanshou and MMA as well. But what I am looking for in-game is more cinematic stuff I think. I love thai boxing, but have only seen it made to look great on screen by Tony Jaa. And as much as I love the Rocky movies, not looking for that type of combat in the game. Really thinking more of Jet Li and Jackie Chan movies.
Well you have the pedigree why not produce your own ?
Personally I like the old Top Secret system but I might be in a small club on that one :)
From an abstract perspective I also think that the old Oriental adventures martial arts styles were pretty good at getting across the difference in styles that is so evocative of movies like Snake in Eagle's shadow or Once Upon a Time In China.
I think you could build a system that allowed you to
i) Involve player tactics in combat
ii) Allow differentiation based on 'style'
iii) Have some speed vs power payoff
iv) have a measure of soft style vs hard style
v) at the bottom end feel quite realistic but at the top end allow crazy Chi power moves
Give it a punt you know you want to.
There are a few martial artists on the site we could even try it as a shared project.
Quote from: jibbajibba;480139Well you have the pedigree why not produce your own ?
I've thought about it. But I think I would have a very hard time doing this. I think the temptation for too much granularity is blocking me.
QuotePersonally I like the old Top Secret system but I might be in a small club on that one :)
I haven't played this since the 80s. Is it still available?
QuoteFrom an abstract perspective I also think that the old Oriental adventures martial arts styles were pretty good at getting across the difference in styles that is so evocative of movies like Snake in Eagle's shadow or Once Upon a Time In China.
3E or the old 1E book? I don't remember 1E oriental adventures too well, but I do recall getting the same impression you describe from the 3E version.
QuoteI think you could build a system that allowed you to
i) Involve player tactics in combat
ii) Allow differentiation based on 'style'
iii) Have some speed vs power payoff
iv) have a measure of soft style vs hard style
v) at the bottom end feel quite realistic but at the top end allow crazy Chi power moves
This all sounds reasonable. I would probably make room for mystic elements too since that is part of the genre (though you do mention this in 5).
QuoteGive it a punt you know you want to.
There are a few martial artists on the site we could even try it as a shared project.
This wouldn't be a bad experiment for some fun. maybe in the design forum.
I like Feng Shui for it's Wuxia style of martial arts and it's more mystic elements that it ties in. It's not realistic in that a well build character could (theoretically) actually run up a stream of machine gun fire. But I think with their various styles and the general flow of the mechanics it does the genre very well if what you are going for is the Wuxia style you see in Crouching Tiger etc...
Surpisingly, I think Jadeclaw does a decent job. Blood and Fists for D20 modern is a friends favorite. Although he complains about nearly all of them. Being a dedicated practitioner I suggest he do his own book.
I'm only barely into them myself. (2nd Degree Brown belt in Taekwondo, and Orange in Aikijujitsu.)
I think Top Secret/SI wasn't terrible either. I'm not sure of any "great" ones though. It is a shame that. I know a lot of people gush over Weapons of the Gods, but it was just too weird for me.
Depending on what one likes they might want to look at: Dragon Lines (BRP), Dragofist (AD&D derivative), I like Dragonfist in general but I'd need to re-read it for martial arts, as I don't recall much about them. Dragon Lines I do not own.
Someday I hope one of my games will have awesome martial arts, notably my Space Wuxia game. Just have to sit down and write it.
Quote from: Blackhand;480126Ninjas & Superspies is a great system, for the most part. The Palladium combat system lends itself well to the "duck and thrust" of the art of fighting with all the different rolls.
Another vote for N&SS.
Why?
Quote from: jibbajibba;480139I think you could build a system that allowed you to
i) Involve player tactics in combat
ii) Allow differentiation based on 'style'
iii) Have some speed vs power payoff
iv) have a measure of soft style vs hard style
v) at the bottom end feel quite realistic but at the top end allow crazy Chi power moves
Because it does precisely all of this, without being ridiculously clunky.
As it stands only character creation is somewhat clunky, and there are a couple of fixes out there for that (Pundy's for one).
Monkey: Journey to the West
Best Kung Fu game I've ever read.
N&SS is getting a lot of love. I will have to check it out as well.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480200N&SS is getting a lot of love. I will have to check it out as well.
I'm ending my main game tonight and next week we will be playing N&SS with Heroes Unlimited. My character is a mutant from Heroes who is a dedicated martial artist from N&SS.
He's an anthropomorphic hawk with the samurai sword art and the Japanese joint locking art - we decided he is from the same world as Usagi Yojimbo. Fucking awesome.
GURPS martial arts. Very detailed and plenty of options.
Feng Shui occasionally violates its own design goals. The most obvious example I can think of is that while it makes a lot of noise about guns not needing detailed stats, it then goes and gives you detailed stats for the guns anyway.
My impression of the martial arts system is that it was a bit too coarse grained for a martial-arts focused game.
Some things you might want to look at are Eclipse: The Codex Persona (shareware point-buy for d20, which has a surprisingly detailed path system for mystical martial arts) and Daniel Bayn's Wu Shu, which was designed to properly do what Feng Shui claims to but often does not.
Quote from: Cranewings;480204I'm ending my main game tonight and next week we will be playing N&SS with Heroes Unlimited. My character is a mutant from Heroes who is a dedicated martial artist from N&SS.
He's an anthropomorphic hawk with the samurai sword art and the Japanese joint locking art - we decided he is from the same world as Usagi Yojimbo. Fucking awesome.
We played a game like that back in high school. i had a guy who was a dedicated martial artist as well, with the power alter physical structure: metal. imagine the X-man Collosus, that was a Jujitsu bad ass. :)
Quote from: Ronin;480232We played a game like that back in high school. i had a guy who was a dedicated martial artist as well, with the power alter physical structure: metal. imagine the X-man Collosus, that was a Jujitsu bad ass. :)
Nice. That's some Palladium thinking right there.
The biggest power game characters I've seen to date were both from the same guy: The Sonic Samurai who had either 9 or 11 attacks with his katana, and the Cotton Fist martial artist with chi powers and Negate Super Abilities.
I always found martial arts entertaining in the Hero System. Not sure how realistic the rules are but there is a lot of flavor there and it's a lot of fun to play a martial artist in that game. You can find an intro to the Hero System on this page (http://www.herogames.com/freeStuff.htm) if you aren't familiar with it.
Rolemaster's Martial Arts Critical Hit tables are great fun. RMSS + Martial Arts Companion isn't everybody's idea of fun though.
I've always been pretty impressed by the free download Final Stand.
If you're gonna go Palladium, make sure you get Mystic China as well.
Quote from: Blackhand;480126Ninjas & Superspies is a great system, for the most part. The Palladium combat system lends itself well to the "duck and thrust" of the art of fighting with all the different rolls.
Actually, N&S is one of the worst. No attempts to balance types of attack, just use your most damaging attack every time (you're hitting him with /another/ reverse turning kick! What a surprise!)
Plus, it has enough inaccurate and distorted information on the styles included that it is guaranteed to infuriate a martial arts geek -- it's an indifferent mix of fiction and fact. For example, it claims that when used as a combat form, Tai Chi Chuan practitioners appear to be "moving in slow motion" with unhurried, precise movements. In fact, if used in anger, practitioners move at normal speed.
If I wanted to play a martial arts campaign, I'd use Feng Shui, or White Wolf's excellent and sadly out of print "Street Fighter" game, which urinates all over "Ninjas and Superspies".
Quote from: valency;480645Actually, N&S is one of the worst. No attempts to balance types of attack, just use your most damaging attack every time (you're hitting him with /another/ reverse turning kick! What a surprise!)
Plus, it has enough inaccurate and distorted information on the styles included that it is guaranteed to infuriate a martial arts geek -- it's an indifferent mix of fiction and fact. For example, it claims that when used as a combat form, Tai Chi Chuan practitioners appear to be "moving in slow motion" with unhurried, precise movements. In fact, if used in anger, practitioners move at normal speed.
If I wanted to play a martial arts campaign, I'd use Feng Shui, or White Wolf's excellent and sadly out of print "Street Fighter" game, which urinates all over "Ninjas and Superspies".
Yeah, but most martial arts geeks are full of shit.
"Capoera people are so good at dodging they aren't hindered by fighting with their hands down."
"Snap kicks are for point fighting and don't hurt people."
"Sparing and or fighting isn't necessary to built reflexes so self defense martial arts actually work!"
"MMA is a great art for self defense because you become good at fighting, never mind that you never learn to make a fist or deal with people larger than yourself."
"All martial arts are equal! It is the user that makes them work!"
Martial arts geeks say some of the stupidest shit I have ever heard in my whole life. Them not liking a game about martial arts hardly knocks it down.
The 'moves all do different damage' in Ninjas & Superspies is a bit of a problem but IIRC, Street Fighter still had a similar problem in that every move was bought as a different skill and had a separate number of dots, so that a character would be best at a couple of abilities he maxed out and would probably not bother with the others.
Other than that: Anyone know if Exalted has a martial art system that's any good?
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;480655The 'moves all do different damage' in Ninjas & Superspies is a bit of a problem but IIRC, Street Fighter still had a similar problem in that every move was bought as a different skill and had a separate number of dots, so that a character would be best at a couple of abilities he maxed out and would probably not bother with the others.
Other than that: Anyone know if Exalted has a martial art system that's any good?
It is awful. I mean, if you just relate that all fighting is martial arts then there are a couple of ways of talking about it. In game, all they have for Exalted called martial arts is snake style kung fu or some shit, which is about as martial artsy as playing Vampire and saying Potents or Obfuscate are martial arts.
I've never cared very much about wanting a detailed martial arts system, but to my perspective N&S is pretty awesome.
RPGPundit
I reckon you could use that roundless combat system we mentioned on another thread and come up with a system that looked a bit like this
- Hit points to absorb damage but underlying wound model
- Hit locations
- Differnt attacks take different durations so a spinning kick is slow but powerful with hit point absorbsion that make s a difference but handswords, punches and elbows are fast in a roundless system that doesn't mean I punch you then you get to kick me really hard it means I punch you 4 times (or whatever) then you get to see if you can land that kick or it might even interrupt that kick
- Blocks and parries - you detail which location you are blocking and the target names the location they are attacking which adds tactics
- Simple grapple, trip and throw rules
- Styles work like a tree so hard soft, long range short range, grapple, punch, kicks etc
- Styles gives you bonuses and disadvantages on certain attacks but also opens up 'specal' moves which I guess are like feats
- A Chi source to power your special stuff but maybe like computer fight games you need to string in some other hits before you can trigger these powers (to avoid the use the most powerful thing every time)
- Express levels as grades or some such each level you get points to spend in your style on different features
Quote from: RPGPundit;480690I've never cared very much about wanting a detailed martial arts system, but to my perspective N&S is pretty awesome.
RPGPundit
Honestly I don't want something detailed either. All I want is something that captures the feel of a good martial arts film. I may have stated this earlier, but I think an overly detailed system would lose the coolness factor and disrupt immersion. Also, accuracy regarding particular styles isn't a big issue for me here either.
Quote from: jibbajibba;480696I reckon you could use that roundless combat system we mentioned on another thread and come up with a system that looked a bit like this
- Hit points to absorb damage but underlying wound model
- Hit locations
- Differnt attacks take different durations so a spinning kick is slow but powerful with hit point absorbsion that make s a difference but handswords, punches and elbows are fast in a roundless system that doesn't mean I punch you then you get to kick me really hard it means I punch you 4 times (or whatever) then you get to see if you can land that kick or it might even interrupt that kick
- Blocks and parries - you detail which location you are blocking and the target names the location they are attacking which adds tactics
- Simple grapple, trip and throw rules
- Styles work like a tree so hard soft, long range short range, grapple, punch, kicks etc
- Styles gives you bonuses and disadvantages on certain attacks but also opens up 'specal' moves which I guess are like feats
- A Chi source to power your special stuff but maybe like computer fight games you need to string in some other hits before you can trigger these powers (to avoid the use the most powerful thing every time)
- Express levels as grades or some such each level you get points to spend in your style on different features
As long as these things could be handled in a simple enough way so the game played fast and smooth, then yes. Stuff like hit location can really bog down combat in my experience. But an intuitive and simple hit location system might work (one that doesn't require a body chart for example).
Blocks and parries; this might get a little paper/rock/scissors the way you describe it. I think I am more a fan of being able to invest more energy into offense or defense each round. That gets just enough of the feel of combat for me without getting too granular.
Attacks with different speeds; something like this might be fun depending on how it is executed. Unless it is somekind of shaolin super move, they should mostly be under one round and simply impact initiative or something. I am working on a mechanic for specific weapons, that could be used for specific moves, where you get an accuracy bonus or penalty, and that is countered by a damage bonus or penalty ( a bit like power attack but move specific).
Simple grapple rules are always better than complicated ones in my opinion. The only thing is, even though I don't want excessive realism, you probably want a place for grappling techniques and style in the game. But grappling is famous for being mechanically clunky when people try to make something complex.
Grades; while that is a though for a karate specific game. It might be hard to implement in a game that encompasses all styles (many without a belt or real grading system).
Style tree; maybe you could explain this a bit more. I am not sure I understand exactly what you mean by it.
Chi; I am all for Chi; I'd be hesitant to draw too much on video game approaches. But in this instance I think something like that might work (and he does reflect how things function in films a lot of the time). There are tons of ways you could approach chi. It might also be something you keep track of (like hit points---it could even be tied to hitpoints).
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480742As long as these things could be handled in a simple enough way so the game played fast and smooth, then yes. Stuff like hit location can really bog down combat in my experience. But an intuitive and simple hit location system might work (one that doesn't require a body chart for example).
Blocks and parries; this might get a little paper/rock/scissors the way you describe it. I think I am more a fan of being able to invest more energy into offense or defense each round. That gets just enough of the feel of combat for me without getting too granular.
Attacks with different speeds; something like this might be fun depending on how it is executed. Unless it is somekind of shaolin super move, they should mostly be under one round and simply impact initiative or something. I am working on a mechanic for specific weapons, that could be used for specific moves, where you get an accuracy bonus or penalty, and that is countered by a damage bonus or penalty ( a bit like power attack but move specific).
Simple grapple rules are always better than complicated ones in my opinion. The only thing is, even though I don't want excessive realism, you probably want a place for grappling techniques and style in the game. But grappling is famous for being mechanically clunky when people try to make something complex.
Grades; while that is a though for a karate specific game. It might be hard to implement in a game that encompasses all styles (many without a belt or real grading system).
Style tree; maybe you could explain this a bit more. I am not sure I understand exactly what you mean by it.
Chi; I am all for Chi; I'd be hesitant to draw too much on video game approaches. But in this instance I think something like that might work (and he does reflect how things function in films a lot of the time). There are tons of ways you could approach chi. It might also be something you keep track of (like hit points---it could even be tied to hitpoints).
Important point is I would eliminate combat rounds and have a rolling combat where different moves took varying durations.
So say a kick is a speed 4 move and a punch is a speed 2 move but a flying uber power kick is a 6 speed move. You could punch 3 times before the flying power kick would land. The idea here is to give another variable that styles can effect, to move away from 'just always use the most powerful attack', and to prevent the need for initiaitves checks each round as your actions and their overlap would determin when people got to strike. I think it sounds more complex then it is. Let me put it together and then take a look :)
I would use a hit location chart but it would be on the character sheet and it would get a bit rock/sissors/stone which I don't mind as I think it adds the illusion of tactics but I can easily make it optional.
I am off on a trip to france for the weekend tomorrow and I will write up a system and post it back here next week. its a fun thing to do and I have a base sytems I am working on so this would just be colouring it up.
Grades I didn't mean in a belt sense but a PC level sense where as you gained levels you could pick up new martial arts training in a skills slot kind of a way. This way it could sit along side a system with non-martial artists who used their skill slots for thief skills, elctronics, compute hacking, magic, etc etc.
Spending hit points as Chi might be a good mechanic for keeping down the stuff to track. Effectively I would bin Hit points have Chi and as you were hit you could roll damage off your Chi (al a 1st edition V&V and the Power score). Chi would also be the engine to drive special attacks and that acts as a natural balance to the game.
I would add a way to gain Chi in battle maybe through critical hits.
Okay let me take that away and do it on my hols (actually I am pretty keen so I might do a draft tonight :) )
I will promise it doesn't forbid the inclusion of irredeemibly evil PCs :)
I liked N&S when it came out, but have to admit, there is a lot better out since then.
If D20 is in your playset, you should hunt up a copy of Blood & Fists.
For modern play, Spycraft 2.0 + World on Fire has some good rules, but some assembly is required; it doesn't present pre-formed styles like Blood & Fists.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;480655The 'moves all do different damage' in Ninjas & Superspies is a bit of a problem but IIRC, Street Fighter still had a similar problem in that every move was bought as a different skill and had a separate number of dots, so that a character would be best at a couple of abilities he maxed out and would probably not bother with the others.
Not quite. It was seperate dots for different move
categories, specifically punch, kick, block and grapple. A fighter could usually max out two of these categories, leaving him weak in two others. To further customise, a fighter collected a "hand" of invidual moves, which were customized for speed, damage and move, which he could play strategically. So it was still greatly superior to N&SS, which has no mechanism for creating variety in moves whatsoever.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480741Honestly I don't want something detailed either. All I want is something that captures the feel of a good martial arts film. I may have stated this earlier, but I think an overly detailed system would lose the coolness factor and disrupt immersion. Also, accuracy regarding particular styles isn't a big issue for me here either.
Check out Clash's Starcluster 2. It has a MA supplement that includes a system that I think might fit the bill for you. Hopefully, he's updating it for SC3 real soon :)