Quote from: signoftheserpentpdf's are just criminally overpriced. If you're charging, what, £2 less for an electronic version, you're a terrible businessman.

My pricing is based on my expenses. Simply put, to make a profit, on say my 336 page Roma Imperious, I need to charge between 12-14 USD depending on the retail outlet it comes out of. That is about what I make through distribution or 33% of in-print cover price.

I can appreciate, though, that some folks wont see the value. That is why I have print versions available. I include the PDF in the Print version if the customer purchases off my site. This is added value as I do believe that PDF format adds value.

Finally, if you are not willing to pay that price, that does not mean PDFs are overpriced. I assure you, no one selling PDFs is rolling on gold rims and living the pimp life. It costs the same amount of money to produce a PDF that it does to produce a print version (sans printing) yet you often see the PDf at 30-40% of the print cover price. I will agree that there are overpriced PDFs, WOTC comes to mind, but usually this is a case of charging the same or nearly the same as the print price. However, again, if it really is overpriced, the market will send a clear message.

Bill

So if you sold the pdf yourself, no middle men, it would be cheaper?

Quote from: signoftheserpentSo if you sold the pdf yourself, no middle men, it would be cheaper?

Theoretically. In reality the big etailer OBS (RPGNow + DTRPG) insists on uniform pricing across the board. I can't sell anywhere for less than I sell on OBS, yet they get the largest cut. I sell about 99% through OBS, so not using them would cut my own throat.

-clash

ADDED: It doesn't really matter though. I've found long term lower prices do not mean enough better sales to make up the difference. There is apparently a perception that cost==quality, which is, of course, untrue, but appears to be deeply ingrained. This is proven over the years by direct experimenting with price.

-clash

I don't like PDF's but I do like electronic documents.

First of all, I am not going to give up my high quality glossy hardbacks for anyone. So my idea is not to replace printed things with all electronic documentation. (I have a feeling I'll be repeating this part).

However, I think there's a place for electronic documents in gaming. Just not PDFs. PDFs were a start, but they don't do what theyre supposed to do.
Ideally an electronic entity (lets say 'a game', or an adventure or other supplement) should be the following (all of the above):

1)  shareable. That means you should be able to email it, store it online, give people copies, all of that stuff.  

2) It should have the option of printability. And not just in a "print these pages out and clip them together." way.. although that should be an option. Bec ause that's another way of sharing it. It just helps to have a printed copy at the actual game, but the thing is all you usually need are the rules parts.

3) minimal to ZERO fluff text, anywhere, ever. I'm sure there's a market for that, but not in the electronic document. Thats the stuff that people want in a printed form anyhow.

(Incidentally, You ever wonder how guys like Rob Kuntz were able to create 1200+ rooms in a dungeon? They didn't even have a word-processer to write this stuff up. Well, they did it by not over-describing rooms, NPCs and areas. What we have now is (almost) an entire generation of GMs who have never developed the ability to extemporize an NPC or a location description on the spot. He just had a 1 or 2 sentence room description. )

No, when we're talking about electronic documents-- we're talking rules, stats, stat-blocks, maps, and minimal descriptive hooks. MINIMAL descriptive content other than that needed for helping the GM to write his own.

4) Web accessible and editable. So the individual owners can make changes before you print. It's his document, after all. Also commenting, sharing and edit-from-browser should be built in.

5) Web storable. You should be able to have a centralized bookshelf that you can store your stuff on, no matter who you got it form. So like if I buy something from RPGWhenever, Dragonsbutt.com or whoever else, I can still store the documents together.


Currently I serve all my stuff through http://zoho.com and use my laptop as sort of my "DM's Assistant". The web is what's happening now. Print is dead!

Quote from: signoftheserpentSo if you sold the pdf yourself, no middle men, it would be cheaper?

Essentially what Clash said. They have, in the last contract I saw but they may have moved it to their CoC, that a publisher can be dismissed from OBS sites if they sell cheaper at another. I could be selling about 20% cheaper on my own sites if I could get the traffic that OBS generates. I am not as bad off as Clash (only about 75% from OBS sites) but it is still enough.

So, I could probably sell a $12.00 PDF for around $10 if OBS did not have be by the short ones. As Clash said though, it often does not make a big difference to sales.

Bill

Quote from: Abyssal MawNo, when we're talking about electronic documents-- we're talking rules, stats, stat-blocks, maps, and minimal descriptive hooks. MINIMAL descriptive content other than that needed for helping the GM to write his own.

This is very interesting, because I've a weird experiment running through my head that's never been tried. Essentially, the optimal layout for rules text that makes it easy to read and absorb may not be optimal for rules to be referenced in play. Most publishers try to get the best balance between the two - but in an electronic format you could split it out. There is a section or a file with the rules presented in a fashion that's meant to be easy to read and absorb. Then another section where the rules are presented in an extremely organized, minimalist fashion that is meant to be used in play.

Just for the puprose of representing examples, this is an excellent example of what an electronic reference should like like for an RPG:  http://d20srd.org

It is however, not so good for the continuous readthrough.  For that, I like good old HTML, properly coded to be able to fuidly adjust page width and formatting to fit screen size, so I can read it equally as well on my monitor, or my PDA.

In theory, I think both could be achieved in the same document, in a manner akin to what wil suggests, simply by making a single large HTML or similar format document, that is as extensively well indexed and hyperlinked.  Basically like take d20srd.org, and then arranging all the pages in the same order as the print D&D books, but keeping all the links and indexes.

What I don't want, is a photostat of a printed page.

Quote from: J ArcaneWhat I don't want, is a photostat of a printed page.

This is what I meant by:

Quote from: James J. SkachWhen will the form factor be right? When will you be able to quickly look up not only the rule you were thinking of, but search through all of your electronic rule books for the same term to see if there's text that contradicts it?

I'm not saying this is where gaming is headed, or even that it's desired. But it's not that far-fetched to imagine it.

If you're trying to match the printed paper exactly, electronic documents are perfect. But what you're really talking about are not electronic documents, per se.

It's more like a database of information and a presentation mechanism. Now, keeping the database and the printed product in synch is part of the challenge. Do that, then create the presentation so it fits on a PDA or PDA-sized device - DGA (Digital Gaming Assistant).  Then create a matching character sheet application so you can sit at the table with everything you need in your DGA. I'm just using the PDA as a form factor example.  Pehaps people would prefer a tablet-style approach so they would easily write notes and such. You'd have to experiment.

PDF is just an alternative to print for distribution purposes. To see it as an electronic document is correct. But to interpret it as anything beyond that is going to stretch the capabilities of the format.

Quote from: SettembriniI want to like them.
I bought many of them.
I printed some, and read some.

Then I forget them.

I get the same, I file them accurately and can find them easily, that's not the point whatever Will may think, the point is a lack of prompt to remind me about them.

The ones I actually intend to use or really rate I print out and get bound, In Harm's Way is sitting on my shelf, so is Zenobia and Warlords of Alexandria, same for Fief and Pulp Egypt and the same will be true for Fly from Evil if it ever comes out.