Quote from: jhkim on May 09, 2023, 05:10:12 PM
If a cattle chute gets gummed up, the result isn't death for all the handlers. It just means that cattle stop getting killed until the foul is cleared. Dealing with zombies via trap is very similar.

QuoteIf we supposed something like Night of the Living Dead where survivors are in a house surrounded by zombies. Picture that there's a small hole in the side of the house, just big enough for one zombie to crawl through at a time. But when a zombie crawls through, they're in a small chamber where they can't move effectively. The operators inside pin the zombie from outside the chamber, then use a hammer or something to destroy the brain. It may take a few tries, but since the zombie is pinned and unable to move its limbs, there is no rush. They pull the zombie through, dispose of the body, and let the next one in.

Who cut the hole in the house? How did they avoid the zombies while cutting a hole in a house? Did they have to cut through pipes and electrical wires? Did they build a special chamber inside the house that's just big enough to trap zombies? How the hell do you determine the details of such a chamber? How long did all this rennovation take? Did they get a permit to remodel their home? How will this affect the resale value?

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 12, 2023, 08:01:18 AM

Who cut the hole in the house? How did they avoid the zombies while cutting a hole in a house? Did they have to cut through pipes and electrical wires? Did they build a special chamber inside the house that's just big enough to trap zombies? How the hell do you determine the details of such a chamber? How long did all this rennovation take? Did they get a permit to remodel their home? How will this affect the resale value?

And that's ignoring that while death is not a common occurrence when working with a cattle chute, it's a definite possibility for someone not paying attention.  Getting hurt or maimed is always a possibility.  It's not as bad (or as slow and inefficient) as trying to do certain operations on the cow or bull without the chute, which  is why the chute is a thing. 

It seems to me we are kind of in a circular thing here.  It goes something like this:

1. The game doesn't need to model fatigue, stress, strain, etc. because this is heroic fantasy and we model it more abstractly.

2. The way we model it abstractly is to have rolls that on the surface don't seem to have a high percentage for success for heroes, but that's because "shit happens" when you are doing something dangerous.

3. Messing with zombies is inherently dangerous, just like a lot of real-world things.  So our model applies.

4. Later, someone changes the model because they think that heroes should be more competent than that. 

5. Now we want to go back to zombies being dangerous, because when you've got a 90% chance of splatting one and no consequences to splattering them all day, they don't seem like such a threat.

So it's not an accident that many of the answers here have been some variation on:

- Amp up zombies to make them appropriately threatening to highly competent heroes.
- Make the heroes less competent.
- Change the model to handle strain a different way more pertinent to the zombie genre.

Or even better, given the way the zombie genre works, all three.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 12, 2023, 08:01:18 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 09, 2023, 05:10:12 PM
If we supposed something like Night of the Living Dead where survivors are in a house surrounded by zombies. Picture that there's a small hole in the side of the house, just big enough for one zombie to crawl through at a time. But when a zombie crawls through, they're in a small chamber where they can't move effectively. The operators inside pin the zombie from outside the chamber, then use a hammer or something to destroy the brain. It may take a few tries, but since the zombie is pinned and unable to move its limbs, there is no rush. They pull the zombie through, dispose of the body, and let the next one in.

Who cut the hole in the house? How did they avoid the zombies while cutting a hole in a house? Did they have to cut through pipes and electrical wires? Did they build a special chamber inside the house that's just big enough to trap zombies? How the hell do you determine the details of such a chamber? How long did all this rennovation take? Did they get a permit to remodel their home? How will this affect the resale value?

I'm not sure the point of these questions. One doesn't have to be outside the house in order to cut a hole in it -- obviously it would be cut from the inside. Where to make the hole depends on the house design. The hole could be the bottom quarter of the back door, for example. As to how to construct the chamber, that depends on the material available. I think modifying a sturdy old-fashioned dresser or wardrobe would be an easy choice - though the ideal would be a narrowing space that starts bigger and gets tighter (like a cattle chute). It needs to be something a zombie can't crawl out of, but still has holes to see and do things like poke a spear/stake through. (One can obviously add holes to the initial chamber, of course.)

Quote from: oggsmash on May 12, 2023, 05:35:44 AM
Combined with most jobs do not have lethal creatures that want to kill you at all times involved.  You can say keep your cool...but just how many fights for your life have you been in?  I think everyone can learn to be calmer in a situation like that...but that learning comes at a price and one goof and you are done.  I would also say people who work hard physically for living have been doing so for years...we are tossing randos into a scenario where they do not understand their limits or even recognize when they are tired.

I don't agree about this. Again, someone could screw up majorly and, say, the zombie gets an arm loose. Or they hurt themselves or a friend swinging the hammer wrong. It's not like the only possible outcome is death.

I'm not saying that it is perfectly safe. But it is much safer than the sort of tactics one typically sees in zombie movies -- like distract the zombies and make a run for it through the crowd of them.

Quote from: David Johansen on May 03, 2023, 11:31:43 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 03, 2023, 02:15:12 PM
how about Zombies with leather jackets and switchblades? 

Now that's threating.

oooh dance fighting West Side Story zombies....brrrrrr....

Damn.  Adventure idea. 
You have to kill a horde of dancing zombies to get to the big baddie demon in red who wants to kidnap the towns children for nefarious purposes.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 12, 2023, 11:33:57 AM
So it's not an accident that many of the answers here have been some variation on:

- Amp up zombies to make them appropriately threatening to highly competent heroes.
- Make the heroes less competent.
- Change the model to handle strain a different way more pertinent to the zombie genre.

Or even better, given the way the zombie genre works, all three.

I don't think this by itself gets at the issue from the OP.

I think there have been some good answers in the thread. However, just making an individual zombie more dangerous or the heroes less competent makes it all the more sensible to approach them with an engineering-type solution. For example, making zombies run fast (like in the 2004 Dawn of the Dead) makes it much more dangerous to try to excitingly rush past them -- but it makes no difference to the operation of a zombie chute.

If the heroes are less capable of fighting an individual zombie in the open, then it pushes them much harder to an engineering-type solution. There are a number of engineering-type solutions other than the zombie chute, but I feel like other posters are pushing mostly against engineering-type solutions in the first place.

I'm a little confused about the zombie chute being the main way of dealing with the zombies. It seems like a short term solution where you're dealing with one zombie at a time whilst ignoring anything else that happens outside, depends on the zombies all going for that one whole and totally discounts the threat of luchadore, nanite, kung fu or controlled by dark lord zombies. You really need to get AFMBE to explore options.

Quote from: Garry G on May 12, 2023, 02:17:25 PM
I'm a little confused about the zombie chute being the main way of dealing with the zombies. It seems like a short term solution where you're dealing with one zombie at a time whilst ignoring anything else that happens outside, depends on the zombies all going for that one whole and totally discounts the threat of luchadore, nanite, kung fu or controlled by dark lord zombies. You really need to get AFMBE to explore options.

The zombie chute is one example of an engineering-type solution. It's specifically a tactic for a situation like in the original Night of the Living Dead as well as often at points in other zombie movies.

The main characters have barricaded themselves inside a building to hold off a zombie horde outside. Their defenses are successfully holding, but they are trapped because there are too many zombies outside for them to rush out and fight. What do they do?

---

A dark lord is a definite fix to this. The zombies aren't mindless -- they act on the orders of their lord, and he won't keep falling for the same trap.

As long as zombies are mindless, relentless killers, though -- then engineering-type solutions seem ideal. The classic mindless zombie horde will keep attacking regardless of how many of them are killed.

EDITED TO ADD: To clarify -- adding powers but not intelligence to the zombies will changes the specs of the engineering, but an engineering approach is still best.

In the Walking Dead they channeled a bazillion cgi zombies into a quarry.

Quote from: jhkim on May 12, 2023, 11:37:34 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 12, 2023, 08:01:18 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 09, 2023, 05:10:12 PM
If we supposed something like Night of the Living Dead where survivors are in a house surrounded by zombies. Picture that there's a small hole in the side of the house, just big enough for one zombie to crawl through at a time. But when a zombie crawls through, they're in a small chamber where they can't move effectively. The operators inside pin the zombie from outside the chamber, then use a hammer or something to destroy the brain. It may take a few tries, but since the zombie is pinned and unable to move its limbs, there is no rush. They pull the zombie through, dispose of the body, and let the next one in.

Who cut the hole in the house? How did they avoid the zombies while cutting a hole in a house? Did they have to cut through pipes and electrical wires? Did they build a special chamber inside the house that's just big enough to trap zombies? How the hell do you determine the details of such a chamber? How long did all this rennovation take? Did they get a permit to remodel their home? How will this affect the resale value?

I'm not sure the point of these questions. One doesn't have to be outside the house in order to cut a hole in it -- obviously it would be cut from the inside. Where to make the hole depends on the house design. The hole could be the bottom quarter of the back door, for example. As to how to construct the chamber, that depends on the material available. I think modifying a sturdy old-fashioned dresser or wardrobe would be an easy choice - though the ideal would be a narrowing space that starts bigger and gets tighter (like a cattle chute). It needs to be something a zombie can't crawl out of, but still has holes to see and do things like poke a spear/stake through. (One can obviously add holes to the initial chamber, of course.)

Quote from: oggsmash on May 12, 2023, 05:35:44 AM
Combined with most jobs do not have lethal creatures that want to kill you at all times involved.  You can say keep your cool...but just how many fights for your life have you been in?  I think everyone can learn to be calmer in a situation like that...but that learning comes at a price and one goof and you are done.  I would also say people who work hard physically for living have been doing so for years...we are tossing randos into a scenario where they do not understand their limits or even recognize when they are tired.

I don't agree about this. Again, someone could screw up majorly and, say, the zombie gets an arm loose. Or they hurt themselves or a friend swinging the hammer wrong. It's not like the only possible outcome is death.

I'm not saying that it is perfectly safe. But it is much safer than the sort of tactics one typically sees in zombie movies -- like distract the zombies and make a run for it through the crowd of them.

Distract the zombies and make a run for it through a crowd of them is a straightforward plan, with less "moving parts". You don't need to build elaborate traps with dubious effectiveness. Just throw a rock or something and then run for it.

Quote from: jhkim on May 12, 2023, 01:02:12 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 12, 2023, 11:33:57 AM
So it's not an accident that many of the answers here have been some variation on:

- Amp up zombies to make them appropriately threatening to highly competent heroes.
- Make the heroes less competent.
- Change the model to handle strain a different way more pertinent to the zombie genre.

Or even better, given the way the zombie genre works, all three.

I don't think this by itself gets at the issue from the OP.

I think there have been some good answers in the thread. However, just making an individual zombie more dangerous or the heroes less competent makes it all the more sensible to approach them with an engineering-type solution. For example, making zombies run fast (like in the 2004 Dawn of the Dead) makes it much more dangerous to try to excitingly rush past them -- but it makes no difference to the operation of a zombie chute.

If the heroes are less capable of fighting an individual zombie in the open, then it pushes them much harder to an engineering-type solution. There are a number of engineering-type solutions other than the zombie chute, but I feel like other posters are pushing mostly against engineering-type solutions in the first place.

Yes. You have to have tools, materials and competence in order to build just about anytyhing. Hell, I couldn't even weave a basket to save my life. If you're lucky enough to get trapped in a hardware store with a carpenter and a slaughterhouse designer, maybe your chute idea would have some merit. But most people couldn't saw a hole in a wall without cutting their fingers off, even assuming they had a saw handy.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 13, 2023, 12:37:55 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 12, 2023, 01:02:12 PM
If the heroes are less capable of fighting an individual zombie in the open, then it pushes them much harder to an engineering-type solution. There are a number of engineering-type solutions other than the zombie chute, but I feel like other posters are pushing mostly against engineering-type solutions in the first place.

Yes. You have to have tools, materials and competence in order to build just about anytyhing. Hell, I couldn't even weave a basket to save my life. If you're lucky enough to get trapped in a hardware store with a carpenter and a slaughterhouse designer, maybe your chute idea would have some merit. But most people couldn't saw a hole in a wall without cutting their fingers off, even assuming they had a saw handy.

If you're assuming that the protagonists are so hopelessly incompetent that they can't make a hole in a wall, then they are going to die no matter what. They won't be able to barricade the house to keep zombies out, for one. Even if they do, they won't be able to get food for themselves or do the rest of surviving without iPhones and GrubHub.

Zombie stories aren't usually about hopeless incompetents. They're not superheroes -- but they have some skills among them. In Dawn of the Dead (2004), they trick out two buses with welded-on armor, a cow-catcher, and spiked tops. In the Walking Dead, they grow food and build shelter and barricades and other efforts at points. In The Last of Us, the protagonist was a contractor. There's similar for many others.

It feels to me like you're saying that characters shouldn't try to be clever or tactical at all. To me, that's a big part of the appeal of post-apocalyptic stories and RPGs. It's thinking of how to survive in a difficult world.

Quote from: jhkim on May 13, 2023, 02:21:22 AM
If you're assuming that the protagonists are so hopelessly incompetent that they can't make a hole in a wall, then they are going to die no matter what.

Further, it's assuming that people are not able to figure something new out, or learn new skills.

There will of course be a number of completely hopeless people. But I think we can assume they're wiped out early on, that's part of why the postapocalyptic world has so few humans. It's also the appeal of settlements with an unhinged tyrannical leader - you can be a bit useless and he'll keep you alive, so long as you're loyal.

Quote from: jhkim on May 13, 2023, 02:21:22 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 13, 2023, 12:37:55 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 12, 2023, 01:02:12 PM
If the heroes are less capable of fighting an individual zombie in the open, then it pushes them much harder to an engineering-type solution. There are a number of engineering-type solutions other than the zombie chute, but I feel like other posters are pushing mostly against engineering-type solutions in the first place.

Yes. You have to have tools, materials and competence in order to build just about anytyhing. Hell, I couldn't even weave a basket to save my life. If you're lucky enough to get trapped in a hardware store with a carpenter and a slaughterhouse designer, maybe your chute idea would have some merit. But most people couldn't saw a hole in a wall without cutting their fingers off, even assuming they had a saw handy.

If you're assuming that the protagonists are so hopelessly incompetent that they can't make a hole in a wall, then they are going to die no matter what. They won't be able to barricade the house to keep zombies out, for one. Even if they do, they won't be able to get food for themselves or do the rest of surviving without iPhones and GrubHub.

Zombie stories aren't usually about hopeless incompetents. They're not superheroes -- but they have some skills among them. In Dawn of the Dead (2004), they trick out two buses with welded-on armor, a cow-catcher, and spiked tops. In the Walking Dead, they grow food and build shelter and barricades and other efforts at points. In The Last of Us, the protagonist was a contractor. There's similar for many others.

It feels to me like you're saying that characters shouldn't try to be clever or tactical at all. To me, that's a big part of the appeal of post-apocalyptic stories and RPGs. It's thinking of how to survive in a difficult world.

No. I'm saying the more elaborate the plan, the more failure points it has. I can put a hole in a house as well. Can I cut a hole and construct a chute to catch zombies, with minimal expertise and prep time, maybe I have tools and materials, maybe not, all the while doing it while being assaulted by undead monsters who are lurking about looking to bite somebody?

Part of being clever is coming up with clever plans. And clever isnt' necessarily complicated.

Quote from: jhkim on May 13, 2023, 02:21:22 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 13, 2023, 12:37:55 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 12, 2023, 01:02:12 PM
If the heroes are less capable of fighting an individual zombie in the open, then it pushes them much harder to an engineering-type solution. There are a number of engineering-type solutions other than the zombie chute, but I feel like other posters are pushing mostly against engineering-type solutions in the first place.

Yes. You have to have tools, materials and competence in order to build just about anytyhing. Hell, I couldn't even weave a basket to save my life. If you're lucky enough to get trapped in a hardware store with a carpenter and a slaughterhouse designer, maybe your chute idea would have some merit. But most people couldn't saw a hole in a wall without cutting their fingers off, even assuming they had a saw handy.

If you're assuming that the protagonists are so hopelessly incompetent that they can't make a hole in a wall, then they are going to die no matter what. They won't be able to barricade the house to keep zombies out, for one. Even if they do, they won't be able to get food for themselves or do the rest of surviving without iPhones and GrubHub.

Zombie stories aren't usually about hopeless incompetents. They're not superheroes -- but they have some skills among them. In Dawn of the Dead (2004), they trick out two buses with welded-on armor, a cow-catcher, and spiked tops. In the Walking Dead, they grow food and build shelter and barricades and other efforts at points. In The Last of Us, the protagonist was a contractor. There's similar for many others.

It feels to me like you're saying that characters shouldn't try to be clever or tactical at all. To me, that's a big part of the appeal of post-apocalyptic stories and RPGs. It's thinking of how to survive in a difficult world.

  I think he is assuming the same thing I am, the sample group of people in question is from the average population of the USA.  We end up with fat people who have never worked in construction (probably can not change a tire) or physical labor and likely have never, ever been in an actual physical fight and certainly not one where their life was at stake.   So extremely low tolerance for stress of the physical or mental sort combined with no working knowledge to use on the fly.   

Quote from: oggsmash on May 13, 2023, 06:09:53 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 13, 2023, 02:21:22 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 13, 2023, 12:37:55 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 12, 2023, 01:02:12 PM
If the heroes are less capable of fighting an individual zombie in the open, then it pushes them much harder to an engineering-type solution. There are a number of engineering-type solutions other than the zombie chute, but I feel like other posters are pushing mostly against engineering-type solutions in the first place.

Yes. You have to have tools, materials and competence in order to build just about anytyhing. Hell, I couldn't even weave a basket to save my life. If you're lucky enough to get trapped in a hardware store with a carpenter and a slaughterhouse designer, maybe your chute idea would have some merit. But most people couldn't saw a hole in a wall without cutting their fingers off, even assuming they had a saw handy.

If you're assuming that the protagonists are so hopelessly incompetent that they can't make a hole in a wall, then they are going to die no matter what. They won't be able to barricade the house to keep zombies out, for one. Even if they do, they won't be able to get food for themselves or do the rest of surviving without iPhones and GrubHub.

Zombie stories aren't usually about hopeless incompetents. They're not superheroes -- but they have some skills among them. In Dawn of the Dead (2004), they trick out two buses with welded-on armor, a cow-catcher, and spiked tops. In the Walking Dead, they grow food and build shelter and barricades and other efforts at points. In The Last of Us, the protagonist was a contractor. There's similar for many others.

It feels to me like you're saying that characters shouldn't try to be clever or tactical at all. To me, that's a big part of the appeal of post-apocalyptic stories and RPGs. It's thinking of how to survive in a difficult world.

  I think he is assuming the same thing I am, the sample group of people in question is from the average population of the USA.  We end up with fat people who have never worked in construction (probably can not change a tire) or physical labor and likely have never, ever been in an actual physical fight and certainly not one where their life was at stake.   So extremely low tolerance for stress of the physical or mental sort combined with no working knowledge to use on the fly.

Unless you're playing old school CoC style (the early editions didn't even have healing rules and GMs just figured that was because there weren't supposed to be survivors) in the first week or two of the outbreak, those people have already joined the zombie ranks.

Optimistic estimates in event of things going to hell is a modern city is dead in a week or two without modern infrastructure. In a zombie apocalypse I'd say mere days before 90% of the population too stupid to live ceases to do so (someone has to fill the ranks of the zombie hordes).

Anything past a couple weeks and a lot of the incompetence has largely been bled out of humanity. The survivors are predominantly rural, with life experience to match; farmers, ranchers, hunters, miners; and the process of survival in the first weeks is probably going to weed out the bottom 90%.

That said, while a part of the genre, the history of disasters puts a lie to the idea that people are generally bastards who will turn on each other as soon as the veneer of civilization is gone. Rather, disasters tend to activate humanity's latent ability to put aside differences in an emergency and act in unison.

Yes, some thugs are going to loot, but if authority granting them cover is gone, the majority of the troublemakers are going to be shot in short order. The apocalypse will probably not be a good time to be an asshole in the real world (versus the unparalleled success they have in such scenarios in fiction... where the message is often that humanity is actually more terrible than the monsters and so maybe deserves to be wiped out).