This is NOT meant to start a thread just to gripe about the current trend of dropping "race" from player characters, and replacing it with some weird combination of "species" and "ancestry" etc., because I agree much of this trend doesn't make sense and is often contradictory.

What this whole issue makes me think about is how so often we create worlds where Demi-human or humanoid races tend to often be monoculture—all the High Elves basically have the same government, culture, social structure, etc., though Wood Elves might have their own but consistent version; all the Dwarves basically come from same culture, etc. Meanwhile, our human races have a myriad of governments, cultures, languages, etc.

Has anyone played around with this, and had for example one group of High Elves be a feudal society, another group based around an Asian-inspired culture, a set of Dwarven clans that have the typical king, etc., while another acts like Scottish highland clans, etc.? One group of Orcs are insane cannibals, while another group has a tribal organization like the Zulu empire? An island culture of Hobbits as well as a "Shire" and not just the Shire?

Quote from: GamerforHire on April 22, 2023, 05:53:14 PM
This is NOT meant to start a thread just to gripe about the current trend of dropping "race" from player characters, and replacing it with some weird combination of "species" and "ancestry" etc., because I agree much of this trend doesn't make sense and is often contradictory.

What this whole issue makes me think about is how so often we create worlds where Demi-human or humanoid races tend to often be monoculture—all the High Elves basically have the same government, culture, social structure, etc., though Wood Elves might have their own but consistent version; all the Dwarves basically come from same culture, etc. Meanwhile, our human races have a myriad of governments, cultures, languages, etc.

Has anyone played around with this, and had for example one group of High Elves be a feudal society, another group based around an Asian-inspired culture, a set of Dwarven clans that have the typical king, etc., while another acts like Scottish highland clans, etc.? One group of Orcs are insane cannibals, while another group has a tribal organization like the Zulu empire? An island culture of Hobbits as well as a "Shire" and not just the Shire?

I guess it all depends on how far apart one settlement is from another both physically and in time.

It also depends on how tied to the race are some characteristics, meaning how much of their culture is strictly cultural and how much comes from their biology/magic.

Take for instance Vulcans and Romulans, both come from the same ancestor species (Ancient Vulcans) distance and time have made them different.

You also need to take into account the longevity of the race, Elves being immortal (or close to) means their culture would change very little even many miles apart.

Non-human races are, in my opinion, intended to be archetypal and monocultural.

If you have a bunch of elven "ethnicities" -- sun, wood, moon, grey, dark, water, whatever -- then you've lost the point of having elves in your setting to begin with.

This is probably the only place I could say this.

So you take a group of sentients, they come from the same stock so have commonalities in appearance. You place them somewhere in a world, in an environment. They develop a common culture because they (mostly) interact with each other (rather than outsiders). If for example they're in the mountains they might have a preponderance of mountain skills as the most likely, maybe bonuses to those activities. If you take another group of the same base stock and place them in the hills, bam no mountain skills or bonuses. They develop their own skills and bonuses.

And thus we have Hill Dwarves and Mountain Dwarves. IMO they're differentiated straight out of the tin. So yeah, High Elves are different from Wood Elves already. Can you subdivide them further? Sure, and I have. I started out with Judges Guild's Wilderlands back in the 70's. There are villages all over the place, along with their general alignment and what their race is and even their government type. Took me a while to stretch my head around that, but I did and now I have no trouble with it. Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, as many different types of government and cultures as Humans. Remember when Gary introduced Valley Elves? Elf-type who lived in this valley. There you go, a new entry.

Quote from: GamerforHire on April 22, 2023, 05:53:14 PM

Has anyone played around with this, and had for example one group of High Elves be a feudal society, another group based around an Asian-inspired culture, a set of Dwarven clans that have the typical king, etc., while another acts like Scottish highland clans, etc.? One group of Orcs are insane cannibals, while another group has a tribal organization like the Zulu empire? An island culture of Hobbits as well as a "Shire" and not just the Shire?

That is the way I used to do it, working with existing systems. 

For my own system, I've got six races, all distinct mechanically (Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and 3 others of my own creation).  Then there are six cultures:  Agrarian, Herders, Frontier, Itinerant, Urban, and Wild.  Culture is a guideline for what kind of weapons, armor, and environment the society operates in, as well as influencing how the cultures interact.

Then there are locations in the setting, which can put their own spin on any particular mix. This is the key part, which can, of course, be done in any system.  I just find it easier to do with my setup, which is why it is built that way.  Think of the culture tags as descriptive, not prescriptive, in that I envision the region, then decide the predominant racial mix and the major cultures within it.

The location is the thing that sets it apart.  It's not Agrarian Elves over there, and Frontier Elves over here.  Instead, it's this particular region which is mostly Agrarian, some Herders, and a modicum of Urban, which has a lot of Elves, a few humans, and miscellaneous other races.  Then on the edge of that civilized region, there's another area that is a mix of Herders, Wild, and Frontier, with the "Herders" being mostly sea-based raiders and merchants.  Again, there's a mix of races, but it's seen by most outsiders as elven  because of the type of ships they use and the nature of the Frontier/Wild territory.  Well, that and there isn't a lot of metal used by these societies, because one of the things that makes elves distinct is their strong distaste for large concentrations of it.

There may be a mostly human society on the same sea, perhaps Herders and Urban.  It's got its own spin, yet the sea-based Herders give it something in common with the mostly elven society.

And lest anyone mistake me for a cosmopolitan mushy mix, there are only six playable races in the setting because those are the ones that get along well enough to have those kind of mixes.  There's also more monolithic "monster" societies.  Likewise, if a particular group of elves was xenophobic, a PC couldn't be from there.

In my opinion wood elf, grey elf, sea elf are cultures. They are all elves. biologically the same, but the wood elves live in the woods and are more hillbilly hunters than the others. Grey elfs are more urban and obsessed with magic.

Dwarves are divided into Hill and Mountain Dwarves. Hill Dwarves are more cosmopolitan than Mountain Dwarves who are more insular. Different cultures.

As far as humans go most of Western Europe would be one type of human, East Asia might be another, or it might be two. We are farm more familiar with these cultures so we don't call them Wood, or Grey or Hill or Mountainl or anything.

Quote from: Ruprecht on April 23, 2023, 12:06:16 AM
In my opinion wood elf, grey elf, sea elf are cultures. They are all elves. biologically the same, but the wood elves live in the woods and are more hillbilly hunters than the others. Grey elfs are more urban and obsessed with magic.

Dwarves are divided into Hill and Mountain Dwarves. Hill Dwarves are more cosmopolitan than Mountain Dwarves who are more insular. Different cultures.

As far as humans go most of Western Europe would be one type of human, East Asia might be another, or it might be two. We are farm more familiar with these cultures so we don't call them Wood, or Grey or Hill or Mountainl or anything.

Obviously there are different ways to handle it - but this roughly matches my most common approach.

In most fantasy worlds, there isn't an explicit West Europe or East Asia either. They have other names, but there are parallels for them. Likewise, there are generally cultural roots for different races like elves and dwarves. D&D dwarves are most commonly based in Scottish culture -- with some borrowing of Scandinavian culture (which had influence on Scotland). D&D elves are also more a mix of Welsh and Celtic, though also with some Scandinavian influence. D&D gnomes tend to be more early industrial Germanic, with esthetics coming in part from Germanic folk tales like the Brothers Grimm.

These have been adapted to other settings and cultures in a number of the other D&D settings, but they still tend to show their roots.

In my current D&D setting, all the standard races and cultures are adapted to fit the region of the pre-Columbian Incan Empire. The different fantasy races are parallels for the mix of ethnicities within the region. For example, gnomes in my world are split between forest gnomes (who are based in Amazonian cultures) and rock gnomes (based on Chimu culture).

Quote from: GnomeWorks on April 22, 2023, 07:31:48 PMIf you have a bunch of elven "ethnicities" -- sun, wood, moon, grey, dark, water, whatever -- then you've lost the point of having elves in your setting to begin with.

I disagree with this on the basis that Elves are basically fey, Fey are basically a type of nature spirit that are the embodiment of different natural forces, qualities or endeavors (such as smithing, creation, etc.), and have a bunch of variants in real life folklore (Dryads, which are very similar to elves, being a perfect example of this, with pretty much the whole gamut of wood dryads, spring dryads, mountain dryads, sea dryads, etc.). And even if you reduce them to just "archetypes", monocultures or whatever, all those variant "ethnicities" can and do tend to embody such monocultures or archetypes, so there's nothing contradictory about having sun elves, wood elves, or whatever, even if reducing them to that particular function.

But yeah, even from this particular perspective, plus GeekyBugle's point about the longevity of such entities, it does make sense for this type of creatures to lean towards monocultures based around their "ethnicities" or the type of archetype or forces they embody. In the case of fantasy races that are not supernatural creatures, but more like natural species, though, there probably should be more variation in cultures.

In my settings race works one of the following ways

Sci-fi: Phenotype. What kind of genetically engineered abomination (if any) is your character.
Fantasy: Bloodline. Only one species but different regional adaptations due to divine blessing.

In real-world myth, "human" is generally code for one's own culture. So in Greek myth, "humans" are Greek - while in Incan myth, "humans" are Incan. The mythic origin of humans will be centered in their own land - like around Mount Olympus in Greece, or Lake Titicaca in Peru. The human gods all are based in the local region. The important mythic events in the history of humans take place locally. etc.

This is of course counter to our modern understanding of humans having originated in Africa from evolution, and spread across to the other continents. Some fantasy authors mirror myth, while other fantasy authors take the scientific view of humans as having full real-world variation as in our modern view - but then also mix in old mythic concepts where there are specific gods, events, and creatures that are tied to a particular region.

In practice, any author is limited in the variety of cultures they can effectively portray - which will always be less than the true variety of real-world human culture. In practice, fantasy cultures are always based on real-world ones - which is true of both fantasy human cultures and fantasy non-human cultures.


That doesn't mean that anyone is monocultural. In Tolkien, dwarves are roughly monocultural - but elves have multiple cultures. This can be seen in the variation of Tolkien's multiple elvish languages and scripts, for example. That's the opposite of what one would expect from their lifespans, but I'd say that's fine given that it's fantasy. In ElfQuest (by Wendy and Richard Pini), elves are even more varied in culture - like Sun Elves, Wolf-riders, Gliders, etc.

If one is mirroring myth, it might make more sense for humans to be monocultural, and non-humans could be more varied in culture.

I do a few things to make traveling to new places unique.  Trigger snowflake warning.  My worlds are not utopias.  A world with problems are realistic and provide a source for adventures.  All stories are based on conflicts, so the more, the better. 

1.  No half races.   Yup, I'm on board with this.  It's a hold over from my Palladium Books days where that game didn't have them because of biology.  The only Palladium races that interbreed successfully are ogres and humans, but the child is always an ogre, usually male.  It's obviously to imply that male ogres raid human settlements for their women, and that's a great motive for a campaign scenario.  It also helps explain the divides between races. 

2.  No Neapolitan cities.  It's one race in charge.  It's not nice to modern sensibilities, but it's not unrealistic either.  If there is another race as a significant population, they are second class and often live in a ghetto. 

3.  No Neapolitan human cities.  Just like an elf city is nearly all elf, a Japanese island will be nearly all Japanese. 

However, I'm guilty of doing what the OP said.  Only humans are widespread enough to be distinct cultures.  Dwarves of the north are just like dwarves of the south.  I might have to rethink that. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 23, 2023, 12:41:08 PM
I do a few things to make traveling to new places unique.  Trigger snowflake warning.  My worlds are not utopias as I feel they're unrealistic and provide a source for adventures.  All stories are based on conflicts, so the more, the better. 

Please don't give trigger warnings. I'd like to think we're all thinking adults here with a minimum of common sense.

IMHO Trigger Warnings are the fasted way to, depending on sincerity, look like either a spinless soymilk drinker who weeps at the sight of a well cooked steak or an edgelord who is trying to show everyone they're so edgy that they have to warn everyone about the edginess of their  edge.

Quote1.  No half races.   Yup, I'm on board with this.  It's a hold over from my Palladium Books days where that game didn't have them because of biology.  The only Palladium races that interbreed successfully are ogres and humans, but the child is always an ogre, usually male.  It's obviously to imply that male ogres raid human settlements for their women, and that's a great motive for a campaign scenario.  It also helps explain the divides between races. 

In my fantasy games I normally make it so humans can breed with almost anything humanoid, largely because humans are the progenitor race. An Orc and an Elf breeding as an example would probably kill the mother if she's an elf due to the brutally short pregnancy and massive child and would result in a mule. Humans though have the Fuck Anything superpower.

Quote2.  No Neapolitan cities.  It's one race in charge.  It's not nice to modern sensibilities, but it's not unrealistic either.  If there is another race as a significant population, they are second class and often live in a ghetto. 

To a degree this is historically inaccurate. Large cities tended to be cosmopolitan due to the nature of trade. Smaller cities, large towns, and centers of internal trade though, this may fit.

Quote3.  No Neapolitan human cities.  Just like an elf city is nearly all elf, a Japanese island will be nearly all Japanese. 

Cities tended to even in the pre-modern era be cultural mixing pots. Japanese cities were all Japanese because Japan was insanely isolationist for the longest time and the only reason why more modern cities aren't is unlike in ye olden days of conquest modern colonialism had a very harsh concept of anti-miscegenation which prevented the formation of social bonds and for the most part the Europeans left en mass when colonialism collapsed unlike in the olden days. Hell, reason China is as universally Han as it is now is because the PRC has been systematically genociding minorities and destroying Chinese culture for the past 70 years

I mean just look at Constantinople under the Turks. They might have put pressures on the Christians to convert after conquest, but they liked money way too much to burn the house down in the name of Turkish purity.

However, I'm guilty of doing what the OP said.  Only humans are widespread enough to be distinct cultures.  Dwarves of the north are just like dwarves of the south.  I might have to rethink that.
[/quote]

One way to do this would be to make a list of dwarven ideas and stereotypes, about 20 or so, fill a hat, and pull 10 out for each sub-faction to serve as a foundation for their culture, refilling with each drawl.

Quote from: GamerforHire on April 22, 2023, 05:53:14 PM... so often we create worlds where Demi-human or humanoid races tend to often be monoculture—all the High Elves basically have the same government, culture, social structure, etc., though Wood Elves might have their own but consistent version; all the Dwarves basically come from same culture, etc. Meanwhile, our human races have a myriad of governments, cultures, languages, etc.

Part of the reason this tendency occurs is that in practice, setting books have limited volume, and every subculture you add to any given racial template reduces the word count you can devote to each subculture.  If you have 30 pages for your chapter on Races, you can devote ten pages each to elves, dwarves and hobbits, but if each one of those has five subcultures, you're down to two pages per subculture.

Couple this with the fact that the players who really want this kind of detail in their fantasy settings are more likely to create it themselves than to wait for a given company to publish however many setting supplements might be needed, and it isn't surprising that publishers tend to err on the side of the manageably simple rather than the realistically complex.

I'll add this.  I once got into a disagreement with others over whether or not to use known human cultures over fully invented ones.

The thing is I like a lot of real life cultures and wanted them in my fantasy games with little to no changes.  Samurai are just as fun as knights riding giant centipedes and wearing glass armor. 

It was my game so we kept the cultures, but I was called lame for doing so. 

Regarding half-races, long ago when I was less Sword & Sorcery minded I decided a Half-Elf and Half-Orc were the fantasy version of calling someone an Oreo. A not so nice way of saying they hang out with humans far too much. I'm not sure if the woke would like or hate that but also I don't care.