Quote from: VisionStorm on April 23, 2023, 06:56:30 AMI disagree with this on the basis that Elves are basically fey

That's one interpretation of them, sure. Not everybody codes elves as fey. Regardless, this is just nitpicking: I could've written "dwarf" or "gnome."

From a realism standpoint, sure it would make sense that if a given race is all over the place, they'd (probably) have different cultures. But my approach stems more from a game standpoint. It's much easier for players to grok a race that is effectively an archetype, and easier to roleplay as one. It also helps makes humans stand out since they typically do have varied cultures in pretty much any setting you can name.

Quote from: GnomeWorks on April 23, 2023, 07:47:52 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 23, 2023, 06:56:30 AMI disagree with this on the basis that Elves are basically fey

That's one interpretation of them, sure. Not everybody codes elves as fey. Regardless, this is just nitpicking: I could've written "dwarf" or "gnome."

From a realism standpoint, sure it would make sense that if a given race is all over the place, they'd (probably) have different cultures. But my approach stems more from a game standpoint. It's much easier for players to grok a race that is effectively an archetype, and easier to roleplay as one. It also helps makes humans stand out since they typically do have varied cultures in pretty much any setting you can name.

Cultures change as one generation dies and is replaced by the next, little by little.

Now picture an immortal race, sure, you could say Elves in X region eat more fish because there's less of other meat, but the basic underlying culture would remain the same because there's no room for change due to the longevity of Elves.

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Cultures change as one generation dies and is replaced by the next, little by little.

Now picture an immortal race, sure, you could say Elves in X region eat more fish because there's less of other meat, but the basic underlying culture would remain the same because there's no room for change due to the longevity of Elves.
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I had not thought of this point. It would affect any attempt to "mix it up" with long-lived Demi human or humanoid cultures.

I largely dealt with the monoculture issue by limiting my setting to a single region. You really can fit quite a bit of adventure into a roughly 85 x 110 mile area.

Another factor is that several species, while having existed prior in spiritual realms, have only been present in the material world for the past 200 years, having been dragged here by the energies of the Cataclysm that also obliterated most of the previous mortal civilizations.

The result is that the mortal populations are a potpourri of cultural elements and schizotech levels of development from whoever the survivors were and what they had access to and the new, generally immortal, arrivals generally haven't even fully assimilated to a mundane reality that doesn't just bend to their wills; much less had an opportunity to diverge into separate cultures based on geography.

It's hitting the elves; natives of the dream realms; especially hard as their leaders' demands to maintain the illusion of their dreamtime existence exceeds the resources the lower castes who must now toil to produce can actually generate. This has led to a defacto cultural split as the "dark caste" who rejects the castes that works effortlessly in the dream realms has abandoned the elven monoculture to live among mortals while the leaders of the monoculture have created an order of inquisitors to hunt down heretics and "recycle" them (elven souls reincarnate) so as to return them to their proper place in elven society.

Well, in most modern settings, elves are in different cultures, not a monoculture.

This gives variety but also makes elves more similar to every other humanoid. Drow, deep dwarves and deep gnomes might have more in common that elves and drow, for example.

Creating dozens of unique AND alien cultures for each species would be too much to grasp at once, IMO.

In my old setting, nature and nurture would mix in interesting ways. For example, lizard men had an instinctive fear of deities due to some past trauma, so they'd never become polytheist, but they could either become atheists (or really maltheists, worshipping no one) or hardcore monotheists, despising all gods but one. Dwarves were very traditional, so the ones who didn't fit would be cast away and become pirates and criminals among men. Elves would either feel superior to all, or would join humans so they could fight others. Some nations went full half-elf accepting both as equals.

Cat people would differ not only physically (cat, tiger, lion), but also in personality and culture. They didn't have their own kingdoms - too individualistic for that - but made strong warriors, with mighty clans in the red wastelands, while the most cat-like would happily live among humans studying magic and chilling.

Gnomes were the most peaceful so they got persecuted in some places.

No orcs, because they are boring, but there was a few elephant-folk and greyish apes.

Conversely, some realms were eager to accept valorous foreigners if they adopted the same deity (or just followed orders), while others would be tolerant to different religions but not to foreigners, and so on.

It was a cool setting, with some good ideas but also plenty of dumb stuff, as I started creating this as a teenager. Maybe Ill clean it and publish one day.

Here is a bit I like.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-empire-of-dead.html

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 24, 2023, 11:58:34 AM
No orcs, because they are boring, but there was a few elephant-folk and greyish apes.

For a while in a setting where animal-human hybrids were a fixture (a former created slave race(s) that won freedom) I had aggressive muscular boar-men who were called... Porks.

...Ba dum tish...

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 24, 2023, 01:04:46 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 24, 2023, 11:58:34 AM
No orcs, because they are boring, but there was a few elephant-folk and greyish apes.

For a while in a setting where animal-human hybrids were a fixture (a former created slave race(s) that won freedom) I had aggressive muscular boar-men who were called... Porks.

...Ba dum tish...

Sounds better than orcs to me! 

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 24, 2023, 01:04:46 PM
For a while in a setting where animal-human hybrids were a fixture (a former created slave race(s) that won freedom) I had aggressive muscular boar-men who were called... Porks.

I hope they didn't wind up hogging all the campaign time.

Quote from: Psyckosama on April 23, 2023, 01:01:21 PM

Quote2.  No Neapolitan cities.  It's one race in charge.  It's not nice to modern sensibilities, but it's not unrealistic either.  If there is another race as a significant population, they are second class and often live in a ghetto. 

To a degree this is historically inaccurate. Large cities tended to be cosmopolitan due to the nature of trade. Smaller cities, large towns, and centers of internal trade though, this may fit.

Quote3.  No Neapolitan human cities.  Just like an elf city is nearly all elf, a Japanese island will be nearly all Japanese. 

Cities tended to even in the pre-modern era be cultural mixing pots. Japanese cities were all Japanese because Japan was insanely isolationist for the longest time and the only reason why more modern cities aren't is unlike in ye olden days of conquest modern colonialism had a very harsh concept of anti-miscegenation which prevented the formation of social bonds and for the most part the Europeans left en mass when colonialism collapsed unlike in the olden days. Hell, reason China is as universally Han as it is now is because the PRC has been systematically genociding minorities and destroying Chinese culture for the past 70 years

I mean just look at Constantinople under the Turks. They might have put pressures on the Christians to convert after conquest, but they liked money way too much to burn the house down in the name of Turkish purity.

"Merchant tourism" and diplomats does not a cosmopolitanism make, the vast majority of these people had the equivalent of work visas with limited privileges, not the outright suffrage granted with citizenship to the local folk. But instead you say: "Yeah well the Chinese and the Japanese and the Turks are only three one-offs, nbd, because every nation has always been multicultural ever since the Egyptians enslaved the Hebrews."

You might also count the Ottomans as "anti-miscegenation" since they let the regions they conquered maintain their ethnic (i.e. non-Turk) populations as long as they paid their taxes to the sultan. If Turks don't live in the Balkans they conquered because they agreed not to live in the Balkans they governed, you don't get a whole lot of miscegenation, which apparently results in Turkish bigotry if I understand that right.

I think it's acceptable to make non-humans in fantasy settings act or think inhumanely. Dwarf biology isn't human biology. Dwarves have about 6 times the life expectancy of humans and most source material suggest that females are rare or reproduction is asexual.  Maybe dwarves are like other mammals that have a limited breeding window and lady dwarves only entertain romance every 12 years.  Without a heliocentric chronometer and with a physique that allows for standing in one place for hours polishing stones, cutting gems, or crafting, the idea of a day to a dwarf might be 50 hours with a normal work shift spanning 18-20 hours is plausible.  Perhaps dwarf brains are naturally better at memory and geospatial tasks.  Add in a religious tradition that rewards duty and hard work with social norms that celebrate honorable behaviors. 

Fertz Felspar should not just be a short human with a beard.  He'll be frustrated with the humans who have to stop marching after just 8 or 10 hours.  He recalls every stupid thing the elf has said for the last three months and finds no value in the bard's bawdy songs.  Natural things that don't grow into right angles or look like platonic solids will appear ugly.  He can't ditch the party because he gave his word to help them find the treasure so he appears grumpy and stubborn to non-dwarf observers.

One could follow a similar thought experiment with any race.  Maybe drow aren't evil because they are black; perhaps they appear evil to humans because they have a religious tradition that rewards those that acquire and display personal power and deifies spiders.  Such a culture would create sacraments around torture and violence.   Biologically females are bigger and stronger, and favored by their goddess so males are marginalized.  Many spider species see the male devoured by the female after he's done his biological duty.  Life isn't a miracle when a brood contains hundreds of individuals, only those select few who survive are worthy.  Want to be seen as worthy start killing and eating those around you... Nasty, brutish, and short from a human vantage point, but just a day in the life of a Ched Nassadian.

 

As humans IRL trying to represent non-humans I think a lot of GMs just apply the physical traits to a mostly human psyche and social norms.  You wind up with games peopled with grouchy drunk short humans with beards, stout height-challenged gourmands with hairy feet, hot chicks with pointed ears, etc.  It makes the world less vibrant.

Now I'm gonna go off into a "kids these days" tangent.  I wonder if this more prevalent today because of the fantasy pop-culture mainstream.  Back in the 70s one had to read this material, on paper, and imagine for themselves the Shire or Narnia or Hyperboria.  I wonder if that slow thinking and reflection lent to a deeper connection with the materials.  Today you can flip on the tube and just passively watch Galadreil, Willow, Gimli, or any one of 1000 orcs.  My folks were right, TV is rotting our minds...

Quote from: JackFS4 on May 03, 2023, 09:21:59 AM
I think it's acceptable to make non-humans in fantasy settings act or think inhumanely. ...I think a lot of GMs just apply the physical traits to a mostly human psyche and social norms.  You wind up with games peopled with grouchy drunk short humans with beards, stout height-challenged gourmands with hairy feet, hot chicks with pointed ears, etc.  It makes the world less vibrant.

I thought your hypotheses of the backgrounds behind non-human psychologies were great, but I do think that the tendency to err towards "humans in funny hats, clothes and makeup" is a little older than the dominance of TV/films suggests -- it's less an outcome of lack of imagination, I think, and more just because it's easier.

I strongly suspect the players with enough interest to learn such complicated nonhuman backgrounds, and enough commitment to roleplay them out as well as they can, aren't as common as might be hoped. In practice I can't help but think a good many gamers just like having a few hallmark tropes to remark every now and then for the XP award. And even the committed roleplayers can drop down to that level if they lose energy over time, which inevitably most do.

Quote from: GnomeWorks on April 23, 2023, 07:47:52 PM
Not everybody codes elves as fey.

Elves are fey. That is what they literally are. Any other interpretation is a departure from the source material. Which is fine, of course, but then they are no longer elves. They are something else. Like boys putting lipstick on and calling themselves girls.

Quote from: JackFS4 on May 03, 2023, 09:21:59 AM
I think it's acceptable to make non-humans in fantasy settings act or think inhumanely. Dwarf biology isn't human biology. Dwarves have about 6 times the life expectancy of humans and most source material suggest that females are rare or reproduction is asexual.  Maybe dwarves are like other mammals that have a limited breeding window and lady dwarves only entertain romance every 12 years.  Without a heliocentric chronometer and with a physique that allows for standing in one place for hours polishing stones, cutting gems, or crafting, the idea of a day to a dwarf might be 50 hours with a normal work shift spanning 18-20 hours is plausible.  Perhaps dwarf brains are naturally better at memory and geospatial tasks.  Add in a religious tradition that rewards duty and hard work with social norms that celebrate honorable behaviors. 

Fertz Felspar should not just be a short human with a beard.  He'll be frustrated with the humans who have to stop marching after just 8 or 10 hours.  He recalls every stupid thing the elf has said for the last three months and finds no value in the bard's bawdy songs.  Natural things that don't grow into right angles or look like platonic solids will appear ugly.  He can't ditch the party because he gave his word to help them find the treasure so he appears grumpy and stubborn to non-dwarf observers.

I think it is more about views of human nature than any particular time or sources, though I'll grant that more recent sources might color one's view of human nature too.

I don't see anything in that dwarf description that couldn't be recognizably human given sufficient fantasy evolution--i.e. some humans stayed underground so long they changed.  You could do the same thing in sci/fi with lost colonists on a mining planet.  It's human nature taking to an fantastical extreme, not really alien.  A human that spent time with these dwarves and thought a little could get where they were coming from.

I say that as someone that as all but given up on film for entertainment, and vastly prefers mostly older written material.  Non-human playable races are played by humans, and are humans with pointy ears or funny hats, but the range of human behavior is vast, and leaves a lot of room for a thoughtful player to distinguish the character independent of the game race. 

To be less nice about it, the argument usually goes like this:  "Playing an elf as a human with pointy ears is shallow.  Playing an elf as a non-human because I do X is depth."  Whereas, I see focusing on the non-human aspect so strongly as a sophomoric crutch to avoid dealing with the depth of the individual character.  Or perhaps more charitably, putting a lot of effort into playing a non-human as alien doesn't mean much if every time you play that race, it amounts to the same thing.  (Reflexively playing against type and stopping there is also a sophomoric crutch frequently used as an illusion for depth, but that's another discussion.)

What Bjorn the dwarf warrior did when confronted with the onrushing horde of goblins at the bridge, and how he coped with the loss of his companions, and what he did with the treasure afterwards--and so on--says more about his character than whether he's a short human with a Scottish accent or your dwarf.  And that gets into the difference between develop in play versus extensive backgrounds, which is another separate but related discussion.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on May 04, 2023, 12:49:09 AM

Quote from: GnomeWorks on April 23, 2023, 07:47:52 PM
Not everybody codes elves as fey.

Elves are fey. That is what they literally are. Any other interpretation is a departure from the source material. Which is fine, of course, but then they are no longer elves. They are something else. Like boys putting lipstick on and calling themselves girls.

Elves aren't real. Being fantasy creatures they're whatever anyone wants to make them. Otherwise you could say elves over 2' tall aren't elves anymore because they're a departure from the source material, and Rowling's elves are more true to the source material than Tolkien's.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on May 04, 2023, 12:49:09 AM

Quote from: GnomeWorks on April 23, 2023, 07:47:52 PM
Not everybody codes elves as fey.

Elves are fey. That is what they literally are. Any other interpretation is a departure from the source material. Which is fine, of course, but then they are no longer elves. They are something else. Like boys putting lipstick on and calling themselves girls.

Ah, but then arises the question... what are the Fey in your setting?

Are they beings from the Dream Realms? Nature Spirits? Servants of the Gods/Lesser Gods? Angels neither pure enough for heaven nor wicked enough for hell? The spirits of the ancestors residing in the Otherworld with permiable barriers? Are they an otherwise normal lifeform from another dimension or parallel timeline?

Are all supernatural entities Fey? or just the elves and other near-humans?

What if your setting has some creatures native to the realm of dreams who are lesser gods, but you also have other creatures who are nature spirits/angels not good enough for heaven? Can Fey be one and not the other?

Saying Elves must be Fey is almost meaningless when the term Fey is so fluid as to mean practically anything.