Quote from: SHARK on May 15, 2024, 08:07:04 AM

Quote from: BadApple on May 13, 2024, 02:40:08 AMWhether you have a seasoned cleric that's heard so many confessions he's completely jaded yet knows his god is real and good, a young acolyte that's just been given his first assignments and is still full of idealism and hope, or a stogy academic that's been force away from his books to handle things the order needs done, you have the seeds of a fascinating character that can be a lot of fun to play and enrich the game play experience for everyone.

I very much agree, BadApple! Clerics are people of action, of determination, and leadership. Very purpose-driven, and motivated. Unfortunately, many gamers play Cleric Characters with that confused "Derp, Derp" look on their faces.

I think a common problem is that the religion of the game world is poorly defined.

For example, I played in several campaigns set in the world of Harn. In one, all of the PCs were clerics of Ilvir, a strange god who creates monsters. The religion of Harn is detailed and there are conflicting orders even within the adherents of a single god. In another campaign, I played a cleric of a splinter sect of the mainstream worshippers of Agrik.

In the D&D campaign I've just been wrapping up, religion and belief became a central theme -- as the characters were opposing a cult with charismatic leaders, and they had to argue several times with people and beings over proper belief and respect. The PCs were representing the Solar Empire - a fantasy empire based on the Incans, whose patron is the Sun god Inti - and the cult was ostensibly to the Moon goddess Mama Quilla, but they used false doctrine to twist the teachings.

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On the other hand, a few years earlier, I played a cleric for a while in a D&D campaign using a Forgotten Realms and published modules - and there, his religion was just for show. As the DM ran it, there wasn't any depth to church or mythology. I used some tag lines, and played my cleric as devout and forceful, but there wasn't any meat to engage with.

Quote from: cavalier973 on May 13, 2024, 12:51:48 PMI like it. It looks like one could assign the various activities to broad categories (evangelism, pastoral duties, administration, academics, security, etc.).

I think the 0D&D element of a cleric spell book should be brought back, too. A Holy Text that contains doctrinal treatises, orders of service for weddings and funerals, church/temple history, and hymns. Maybe the codex is presented to the cleric by a superior when he or she reaches second level, and can begin casting spells.

I also am toying with the idea of surprising the player of a first-level cleric with a spontaneous, one-time miracle. "As you see your fighter comrade fall to the orc's blade, you reach your hand out. The fighter blinks and rises back to his feet."

Greetings!

Good to hear, Cavalier973! Indeed, I wanted to capture a very broad-flavoured set of tables that would be quick, easy, embracing a strong random element, and yet also expressing the nuances and diversity of a Cleric Character's training, interests, and experience.

Certainly, I love books! I have some rules and tables for detailing and developing religious books as well! At least for literate societies, the written word--and thus, written holy books, scriptures, and theological and philosophical texts are all extremely important. We sometimes roll our eyes at these things in the modern era, though I think it is important to remember that you can't get very far in almost any college program without encountering such books and their authors from 500 or 2000 years ago. Most non-academic people are generally unaware of these works, but the ideas, the standards, the philosophies within them very much inform and shape much of our modern world in numerous ways.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 13, 2024, 01:18:51 PMI never understood why a lot of players didn't like clerics. They are some of the most fun characters to play. Trying to convert your fellow party members to your religion makes for some great inter-party role play, and there is nothing quite like asking a tribe of orcs during a parley if they have heard the good news.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Ha-ha my friend! Yeah, imagine seeking to convert other members of the adventuring group to your religion! Such comedy gold, there! Oh, the drama! So good!

I love Clerics. They have so much flexibility and potential. Besides all the serious stuff, they even bring in the humour!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

In almost every fantasy campaign I have played in, I usually am the one playing a Cleric. To keep from being the boring heal bot, I make my Clerics walking talking personalities. They usually have more to do than just heal. And the other players really like my Clerics because I make them so much fun. I make them someone that the majority of the group would like and be glad to call comrade.

If someone playing a Clerics is boring. That's their own fault. Because they lack imagination.

A character I recently retired was a high priestess of her faith. And her church was always majorly useful to the PC group. They gave resources, connections, and even jobs for the group's children to grow into. She was my evil character. But she was loyal to her faith and family. She put them first. The times are countless she healed or resurrected some member of the family who got unlucky.

Quote from: Mishihari on May 13, 2024, 01:48:31 PMOne of the things that I think can make clerics boring is a lack of ethos, which is pretty prevalent in RPGs.  They're representatives of a god, but the game designers don't want to cramp the players' style so they don't give any guidance on behavior. 

For game purposes I prefer polytheism, so for each god I'll make up a set of precepts, which are just a list ordered by priority of the values of the religion, usually about 5.  So justice over helping others means get the kidnappers even if the victims are at risk, and ordered the other way means rescue the victims even if the bad guys get away.  I find that in practice it gives enough character differentiation and worldbuilding support to make things interesting without putting a straitjacket on the PCs.

Greetings!

Hey, Mishihari! Definitely, I think it is important for the various religions in a campaign to hold to distinctive ethos and theological beliefs. I always include cultural notes and broadly expected world views, theology, and behavioral norms for each of the major religions in my Thandor world. Of course, I don't feel any apprehension about telling players what the expected codes are. *Laughing* They can choose to embrace them, and obey, or they can seek to be more individualistic. Doing so, however, always has a certain degree of risk involved. In some ways, I approach the topic in a similar manner to professional jobs. Many corporate employers, for example, set out very clear instructions on their expectations of employees while "On the Job." Violating these corporate expectations brings varying degrees of countermanding, from simple verbal talks, up to including termination. Such being a pretty common norm in the professional world of business, it seems reasonable to me that organized religions would embrace similar attitudes towards their members--especially professional clergy members, such as Clerics.

Of course, some religions are more individualistic and free-form, by their very nature. They tend towards attracting a very different membership to their congregations, such as they are--and also for the members of their religious leadership, such as Clerics.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on May 13, 2024, 08:25:06 PMSHARK, my dude. Your posts are always thought provoking and informative.

I've always loved clerics, from my Cleric of Petra in Rules Cyclopedia D&D to my dwarven specialty priest of Loki.

The role play possibilities are many and varied. I still fondly remember the day when my finger of death came in clutch in a battle against the bad guys. Ahhhhh, good times.

The spells were a reason for a lot of role play opportunity as well. Man I could go on and on talking about various clerics I've played over the years. Even spells created.

Greetings!

Thank you, my friend! Indeed, a solid spell rotation can definitely provide structure and even a kind of identity to a Cleric Character. I myself consider a Cleric's spell selection very carefully, considering their personality, history, goals, preferences, as to what kinds of spells that the Cleric Character prays for, and studies. I also think that having a well-defined religious organization, the stated religious world-view, theology, and the home culture of the religion can be foundational and fun to creating such an environment to work from. It has been very informative, useful, and fun for me, certainly!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I was never really a 'cleric' player until I played one in a Gothic Horror campaign, where I found them to be just about the most useful class in the party.

When you stop and think about it, a cleric brings a lot to the table:

Decent fighting ability (especially in a skirmishing role)
Divine Spellcasting not limited to what's in a spell book.
Ability to turn undead
Ability to heal
At higher levels, the ability to craft healing potions/ scrolls

Clerics got it going on!

4e already did this. In fact, 4e dnd fixed all the dogshit issues that have plagued the game since its inception.

Too bad people dismissed 4e based off nothing but hearsay.

I completely disagree 100% about 4e D&D being an improvement for clerics and other classes. In fact, having played a mid-level Cleric and having to port it over into 3e afterwards (the game just dragged and sucked, so the GM had to import it across, and 3e had the most widgets to cover AEDU effects) it was still an utter incompatibility. There is *nothing* about 4e "mechanical improvements" that I want in my play ever again!

Clerics are quite fun for me, so I I felt it was always an 'engagement with the fiction' issue to get out of it what you give. It always comes back to the GM meaningfully interacting with the players, and vice versa. Pro-active GM and pro-active players are a dream combination. Typically most combinations are less than dreamy yet functional, but it all take work (like most of life).

Mechanics cannot substitute for passion, patience, and elbow grease. This applies to most of life as well as RPGs. Step up and be open with joy in your heart. -- opaopajr

4e is objectively the best D&D game. D&D combat is pure dogshit save for 4e and there's nothing that the other editions do that 4e can't, while also having the best combat in all of TTRPGs.

I think a case could be made that Cleric is the best D&D class in purely mechanical terms, especially if you average it out across the editions. The variations on fighter, thief and magic user have risen and fallen in viability over time, but cleric has always been a strong and highly versatile option.

In 3.5 optimization circles there was a term: "CODzilla" (cleric-or-druid-zilla), to express how broken and overpowered the divine casting classes could easily be.

Quote from: Monero on May 18, 2024, 08:49:59 PM4e is objectively the best D&D game. D&D combat is pure dogshit save for 4e and there's nothing that the other editions do that 4e can't, while also having the best combat in all of TTRPGs.

You are joking right?  4E was arguably an ok stand alone combat game but in the context of a D&D campaign it was a major fucking drag that went on forever. I am speaking as someone who does own the 4E books and ran a campaign of it.

The overall problem with the system was centered on the concept of encountardization. Nothing with any meaning or importance shall endure beyond, or take place beyond the scope of the almighty encounter. There were no magical or other effects that had durations beyond the subjective confines of the encounter. Also, there was no way per RAW to end a ponderously long encounter than to grind all opponents hit points to zero. No morale or any power to remove an opponents ability to continue fighting other than the slow steady grind of hit points down to zero.  What they did with concept of minions was just stupid. Kobold minions, sure, but giant & balrog minions? On the DM side, creating NPCs and monsters from scratch was was WAY too much work without software. I do credit 4E for giving me a DM rule to live by: If the game requires specialized software to prep a game then it it isn't worth running.