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How do you effectively portray mythic lore in your OSR, DnD or ttrpg setting? Here's some tips to make it more authentic, complete with a detailed example.

Using Greek and Roman myths as a guideline, develop 2-4 versions of each tale. Make sure there's some contradiction between them. Have fun as your players attempt to unravel the truth from the myths.

"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." --The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.

I've tried coming up with myths for my campaign but I could never solve what I call the Apollo Problem: Is the sun the flaming wheel of Apollo's chariot, or is it the flaming eye of Horus, or is it a giant ball of gas floating millions of miles away? Only one of those things can be true, and it's possible for the PCs (through things like divination, crystal balls, or just flying real high to take a look) to figure out which of those tings is the actual truth.

So, once you postulate that the gods are real, physical beings as they are described in myths, it then becomes impossible for myths to exist as they did on our Earth. This is also true of myths that change over time. For example, some of the stories of the holy grail come from a time when the grail was a cauldron instead of a cup. But if those myths actually happened, it would still be a cauldron and the myth wouldn't have developed the way that it had.

The only way for the myths to make sense is to turn the gods into abstract energy beings that appears to different people in different ways which isn't how anyone believed the gods to actually be.

Always a problem that you have a modern audience and they just don't have the "proper" mindset.
Back to, "Your character believes" which is just not the same.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 13, 2021, 12:17:37 PM
I've tried coming up with myths for my campaign but I could never solve what I call the Apollo Problem: Is the sun the flaming wheel of Apollo's chariot, or is it the flaming eye of Horus, or is it a giant ball of gas floating millions of miles away? Only one of those things can be true, and it's possible for the PCs (through things like divination, crystal balls, or just flying real high to take a look) to figure out which of those tings is the actual truth.

So, once you postulate that the gods are real, physical beings as they are described in myths, it then becomes impossible for myths to exist as they did on our Earth. This is also true of myths that change over time. For example, some of the stories of the holy grail come from a time when the grail was a cauldron instead of a cup. But if those myths actually happened, it would still be a cauldron and the myth wouldn't have developed the way that it had.

The only way for the myths to make sense is to turn the gods into abstract energy beings that appears to different people in different ways which isn't how anyone believed the gods to actually be.

This last paragraph isn't true, at least for ancient Egypt. The animal-headed people you see in temple and tomb paintings are called out explicitly as being representative of qualities of the gods, not representations of the gods themselves. I wish I had the references in front of me, but there is one version where the myth seems to have started out with four opposing sets of ideals -- Dry and Wet, Eternal and Mortal/Changeable, Light and Dark, and Active and Inactive. Who then combine to form various lesser deities that are similar ideas -- one example I can think of is that Mortal and Active mate to give rise to Life, while Eternal and Dark give birth to Caves/the Underworld. The funniest one is when the second-generation Memory mates with Eternal and gives rise to Writing (who is later associated with the other pantheon's Thoth).

This actually is thought to have happened all over. The myths and physical attributes of the gods were seen by the educated classes (especially post-Plato) as guides for the rubes to understand the nature of the gods, but not the actual form of the gods. (See Ovid for an example of using tales of the gods to make a satirical point about Imperial Roman life...)

Edit: So, answer the Sun question, sure your average peasant in Greek-speaking lands thinks the sun is Apollo's chariot, while the average Egyptian peasant believes that it's the Eye of Horus, or the glinting of Osiris's headdress, or the god of Light trudging across the sky to go home to his Dark spouse (depending on where or when in Egypt you are), but there is an answer that is known to the sages (for instance, that the Sun is a ball of flaming gas that passes around the globe that is the Earth), and the gods themselves are there to make sure that the sun's progression through the year is kept orderly.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 13, 2021, 12:17:37 PM
The only way for the myths to make sense is to turn the gods into abstract energy beings that appears to different people in different ways which isn't how anyone believed the gods to actually be.

Or don't try to use the "multiple choice options" thing for anything contemporary to the story.

One thing it's easy to forget about is that the only reason for multiple choice mythology in the present is that we're getting multiple recountings from different places and different times about things that occurred long ago.

Back in Athens c. 500 BC, your local peasant of the day wasn't hearing five different versions of the story of Hercules; they heard the one official recounting of the local priesthood.

We only have a multiple choice version of the stories because we've also gotten recountings from Sparta, from 300 years earlier, from 600 years later, from syncretised translations into Latin, and the interpretations of different scholars across hundreds of years each reflecting the values of their age.

It's sorta like taking texts about the nature of Medieval life written in 1700, 1970 and 2020 and saying there are multiple interpretations of what life was like then... whereas today in 2021 we are going to view the more recent scholarship as accurate and the stuff written back in the 1970's as the misinformed product of its age (ex. interpretating medieval depictions of armor as being "Studded Leather" vs. today knowing now they were depictions of Brigandine).

So the way to apply this realistically to your setting is to only apply "multiple choice" to historical events (ex. Different versions of the creation story or origins of the gods or the gods who came before the present ones), not to the present day religion/cosmology.

If you want to add versimultude there add the "multiple choices" as past interpretations that are now seen as flawed by present scholarship (studded leather vs. brigandine) or dogma (ex. the Catholic view of sex pre- vs. post- Theology of the Body and Humane Vitae)... but make clear that there is one version that is actually considered true (even if the accepted version is actually false).

Another bit I find works well for the Apollo problem is declaring that the physical universe is a reflection of the spiritual truth. When you use telescopes to look at the moon you see a big ball of rock orbiting the planet that reflects light from the sun; but this is merely the physical expression of the spiritual world where the realm of dreams reflects the divine light of inspiration down upon mindkind in the form of dreams.

Then the theologians can get into all manner of arguments over the exact nature of those spiritual associations while still having a concrete answer for those who look with their eyes.

The above also works better if your mortals can't just routinely hop into the spirit world to get those spiritual answers confirmed, just like we can't hop up to Heaven and confirm whether the Jews, Catholics, Islam, one of the Protestant churches or none of the above have the right interpretations).

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 13, 2021, 12:17:37 PM
I've tried coming up with myths for my campaign but I could never solve what I call the Apollo Problem: Is the sun the flaming wheel of Apollo's chariot, or is it the flaming eye of Horus, or is it a giant ball of gas floating millions of miles away? Only one of those things can be true, and it's possible for the PCs (through things like divination, crystal balls, or just flying real high to take a look) to figure out which of those tings is the actual truth.

So, once you postulate that the gods are real, physical beings as they are described in myths, it then becomes impossible for myths to exist as they did on our Earth. This is also true of myths that change over time. For example, some of the stories of the holy grail come from a time when the grail was a cauldron instead of a cup. But if those myths actually happened, it would still be a cauldron and the myth wouldn't have developed the way that it had.

The only way for the myths to make sense is to turn the gods into abstract energy beings that appears to different people in different ways which isn't how anyone believed the gods to actually be.

I strongly recommend watching some of the Overly Sarcastic Productions' videos on Youtube, as Red talks about how myths form, congeal, and mutate.

Myth is not fact. Quite the opposite. And when you're developing a campaign world set in a medieval era pre-Renaissance, myths can contradict themselves (and often do). The gods may have a vested interest in keeping things confused (preventing someone from sussing out a weakness, or discovering something they'd prefer stayed hidden).

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 13, 2021, 01:41:01 PMAnother bit I find works well for the Apollo problem is declaring that the physical universe is a reflection of the spiritual truth. When you use telescopes to look at the moon you see a big ball of rock orbiting the planet that reflects light from the sun; but this is merely the physical expression of the spiritual world where the realm of dreams reflects the divine light of inspiration down upon mindkind in the form of dreams.

It doesn't appear that I made my point clearly, as this is what I am saying.

If you postulate a fantasy world in which the gods exist as they were described by ancient people, that is as actual physical beings that control their own actions, then the myths associated with those gods cannot also be true as the reality of the gods would prevent any contradiction of myth (only one being can be responsible for moving the sun across the sky for instance).

But if you make a game world where the myths are all true, even when they contradict each other, then the gods can't be actual physical beings and need to be more abstract divine expressions.

So, when creating myths for a game world that has actual gods, the way myths would be created is entirely different. They are, in effect, historical recordings of actual events rather than accounts invented decades or centuries after they presumably happened. Which means that myths in such a fantasy world wouldn't resembled myths of ancient Earth.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 13, 2021, 02:47:03 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 13, 2021, 01:41:01 PMAnother bit I find works well for the Apollo problem is declaring that the physical universe is a reflection of the spiritual truth. When you use telescopes to look at the moon you see a big ball of rock orbiting the planet that reflects light from the sun; but this is merely the physical expression of the spiritual world where the realm of dreams reflects the divine light of inspiration down upon mindkind in the form of dreams.

It doesn't appear that I made my point clearly, as this is what I am saying.

If you postulate a fantasy world in which the gods exist as they were described by ancient people, that is as actual physical beings that control their own actions, then the myths associated with those gods cannot also be true as the reality of the gods would prevent any contradiction of myth (only one being can be responsible for moving the sun across the sky for instance).

But if you make a game world where the myths are all true, even when they contradict each other, then the gods can't be actual physical beings and need to be more abstract divine expressions.

So, when creating myths for a game world that has actual gods, the way myths would be created is entirely different. They are, in effect, historical recordings of actual events rather than accounts invented decades or centuries after they presumably happened. Which means that myths in such a fantasy world wouldn't resembled myths of ancient Earth.

I take it you aren't familiar with Glorantha, then? Because Glorantha actually has everything you're talking about here, and makes it work. The trick is that there's a separate Godtime where the mythic reality is real, and Heroes and their communities can go Heroquesting into the Godtime to experience the reality of their myths -- including one community (Heortlings) going to the feast hall of their primary god (Orlanth) and experiencing -- or even participating in -- a myth of their gods where they cast down the false sun and restore the true sun to his glory, while another community (Estoraleans) will Heroquest into the hearth of their Mother goddess, and participate in the reciprocal myth where their gods repulse the attempt of the enemy gods from placing their imposter on the true sun's throne. And, to make things wilder, even though the two myths are antithetical, they both are true in the Godtime, and each community will get the blessing of the True Sun for participating in the Heroquest. It's wild.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 13, 2021, 12:17:37 PM
I've tried coming up with myths for my campaign but I could never solve what I call the Apollo Problem: Is the sun the flaming wheel of Apollo's chariot, or is it the flaming eye of Horus, or is it a giant ball of gas floating millions of miles away? Only one of those things can be true

(https://i.imgur.com/HVYeB2R.gif)

Quote from: ScytheSong on April 13, 2021, 03:31:56 PM
I take it you aren't familiar with Glorantha, then? Because Glorantha actually has everything you're talking about here, and makes it work. The trick is that there's a separate Godtime where the mythic reality is real, and Heroes and their communities can go Heroquesting into the Godtime to experience the reality of their myths -- including one community (Heortlings) going to the feast hall of their primary god (Orlanth) and experiencing -- or even participating in -- a myth of their gods where they cast down the false sun and restore the true sun to his glory, while another community (Estoraleans) will Heroquest into the hearth of their Mother goddess, and participate in the reciprocal myth where their gods repulse the attempt of the enemy gods from placing their imposter on the true sun's throne. And, to make things wilder, even though the two myths are antithetical, they both are true in the Godtime, and each community will get the blessing of the True Sun for participating in the Heroquest. It's wild.

Yeah. It's not rocket science - although Glorantha does do it exceptionally well.

My own secret for maintaining a Mythic feel as GM is to remain resolutely agnostic as to the True Truth of the setting, which in many cases isn't even a meaningful concept.
If you start off like Captain Kirk going "This apparent deity is actually an Abstract Energy Being!" then you've already failed.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 13, 2021, 12:01:54 AM
How do you effectively portray mythic lore in your OSR, DnD or ttrpg setting? Here's some tips to make it more authentic, complete with a detailed example.

Seems to me that some of the Superheroes and their tales have attained a quasi-mythic status - Superman, Batman, Spiderman and Captain America do seem to have a kind of mythic quality about them, to a large extent from being retold so often.

More than one GM (and fiction writer for that matter) have had fun with the setting premise that there is some kind of typical fantastical myth about the gods but the reality is some materialistic, mundane, possibly scientifically advanced group creating the illusion.  Then the story is about exposing the man behind the curtain (to make the obvious allusion).

Some day I'm going to run a setting that turns this on its head:  Some beings with god-like powers have, for inscrutable reasons, decided to create a myth that they maintain their powers via vast technological superiority which is then covered with a patina of fantastical illusion.  The twist is that the fantastical illusion is meant to be seen through.  Then people challenge the gods on that basis and find out the hard way that the technological superiority is the deeper curtain. :D

I think I could get some good "character beliefs" interacting with a mythic quality out of that setup.  Of course, you can't publish that as a setting and make it work.  It's one you need to do yourself.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 13, 2021, 04:41:52 PM
More than one GM (and fiction writer for that matter) have had fun with the setting premise that there is some kind of typical fantastical myth about the gods but the reality is some materialistic, mundane, possibly scientifically advanced group creating the illusion.  Then the story is about exposing the man behind the curtain (to make the obvious allusion).

Some day I'm going to run a setting that turns this on its head:  Some beings with god-like powers have, for inscrutable reasons, decided to create a myth that they maintain their powers via vast technological superiority which is then covered with a patina of fantastical illusion.  The twist is that the fantastical illusion is meant to be seen through.  Then people challenge the gods on that basis and find out the hard way that the technological superiority is the deeper curtain. :D

I think I could get some good "character beliefs" interacting with a mythic quality out of that setup.  Of course, you can't publish that as a setting and make it work.  It's one you need to do yourself.

Didn't Gor do something like that? By Book 3, Tarl has discovered that the Priest-Kings are secretly using advanced technology to control the Gorean population, but by book 20(ish) other Earth transplants have discovered that the Priest-Kings have no control over the process of transport between Earth and Counter-Earth, and that some deity is probably doing the transport as a method to disrupt their control? It's been literally decades since I read the books, but that part stuck in my head.

If you're going to go with the gods as science, might as well go with a good one. (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13821.Lord_of_Light)

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 13, 2021, 04:41:52 PM
Some day I'm going to run a setting that turns this on its head:  Some beings with god-like powers have, for inscrutable reasons, decided to create a myth that they maintain their powers via vast technological superiority which is then covered with a patina of fantastical illusion.  The twist is that the fantastical illusion is meant to be seen through.  Then people challenge the gods on that basis and find out the hard way that the technological superiority is the deeper curtain. :D

Something along the lines of "Lord of Light"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light)

Been ages since I read "Lord of Light".  I always end up rereading "Lord Demon" instead.  But then, there isn't much Zelazny I haven't read at one time or another.  But yes, something with that kind of twist on expectations appeals to me.  The premise of "A Night in the Lonesome October" would make a great mythic setting for a game, though not one I'd probably want to run.

Quote from: ScytheSong on April 13, 2021, 03:31:56 PMI take it you aren't familiar with Glorantha, then? Because Glorantha actually has everything you're talking about here, and makes it work.

I am very familiar with Glorantha but they sort of cheat here. Firstly, gods in Glorantha exist outside of time so they aren't anything like the real physical beings such as the greek gods. Secondly, GodTime isn't really going back in time, it's more like a pseudo reality that is magically created. So while it appears that the myths are true, they aren't (and, in fact, the events may never have even happened at all).

While Glorantha has an interesting take on myth, it also clearly demonstrates what I am talking about in that creating myths for an RPG with real gods cannot end up with myths that are similar to those in our own history.

I will give Glorantha props for making their world actually flat. Most RPG fantasy game worlds are constructed more like sci-fi settings (with orbital periods, moons, other planets, etc).

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 13, 2021, 12:17:37 PM
I've tried coming up with myths for my campaign but I could never solve what I call the Apollo Problem: Is the sun the flaming wheel of Apollo's chariot, or is it the flaming eye of Horus, or is it a giant ball of gas floating millions of miles away? Only one of those things can be true, and it's possible for the PCs (through things like divination, crystal balls, or just flying real high to take a look) to figure out which of those tings is the actual truth.

Three things come to mind for me about this:

First, I don't think it's necessarily a problem that only one explanation can be true. In order for that truth to destroy the existence of all false myths regarding the nature of the sun (or whatever), it would have to be generally publicly accepted. And to achieve that, it has to first be generally known. While it may be possible for PCs to become [in]famous enough and powerful enough to (1) gain that knowledge themselves (2) spread the knowledge around until it becomes common enough to supplant myth (3) convince everyone that it's actually true just because the PCs said so ... that sounds like the work of an entire campaign to me. Outside of that deliberate campaign path, it strains my credulity. Heck, it took real humans thousands and thousands of years to get to a point of generally agreement on the matter (and there are still outliers offering counter-myths even today of course).

Second, the problem in general feels like an artifact of the multi-pantheon approach to campaign worlds. If you're creating your own campaign world and want to stress myth, I would suggest starting with a single-pantheon approach, which seems much more akin to how ancient people actually viewed the world around them. A campaign world need not explore every myth across an entire planet. If it's a "Mayan" campaign, for example, it can explore Mayan style myth as if it were the One Accepted Truth. Likewise for any other single set of myths, including an entirely imaginary one.

Third, the problem assumes not only that such a truth exists, but that it's possible to discover. The reason ancient people each had a different myth about the sun is because none of them had a way to verify one "truth" or another (that's what makes it a "myth" after all). Divinations may be that powerful and certain in your game, but I don't think I've seen the like myself. And I think it's entirely reasonable for The Sun to be too hot, or too full of some arbitrary radiation, or too far away to reach with that spell duration, etc., for the PCs to ever to discover its true nature with certainty. Heck, for all we know the Sun could live in another inaccessible dimension and just be "shining through", its true nature forever indiscernible.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 14, 2021, 08:17:39 AM
I am very familiar with Glorantha but they sort of cheat here. Firstly, gods in Glorantha exist outside of time so they aren't anything like the real physical beings such as the greek gods. Secondly, GodTime isn't really going back in time, it's more like a pseudo reality that is magically created. So while it appears that the myths are true, they aren't (and, in fact, the events may never have even happened at all).

That's just your interpretation. Like I said, once you're applying a scientific world view to myth, you've already failed.

Quote from: S'mon on April 14, 2021, 09:24:50 AMLike I said, once you're applying a scientific world view to myth, you've already failed.

I would take that thought even more extreme:  Once you're applying a scientific OR fictional world view to myth, you've already failed.  The most common* mistake a modern makes about "myth" is the immediate assumption of "fiction".  Myth is a story about how the world works.  Could be completely and wildly incorrect.  Could have some strong insights but be off in details.  Could have a grain of truth embedded in a lot of fiction.  Could be 100% true. 


* (The second most common mistake that moderns make is assuming that people alive when the myth was formed don't get those distinctions.  But that's another discussion. )

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 14, 2021, 11:47:54 AM

Quote from: S'mon on April 14, 2021, 09:24:50 AMLike I said, once you're applying a scientific world view to myth, you've already failed.

I would take that thought even more extreme:  Once you're applying a scientific OR fictional world view to myth, you've already failed.  The most common* mistake a modern makes about "myth" is the immediate assumption of "fiction". 

Yes, you're definitely right.

Not much mainstream RPG authors 'get' myth, certainly not D&D, though 4e ironically did a lot better than prior iterations and I tend to largely stick with its tone in other D&D I run.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 13, 2021, 12:17:37 PM
I've tried coming up with myths for my campaign but I could never solve what I call the Apollo Problem: Is the sun the flaming wheel of Apollo's chariot, or is it the flaming eye of Horus, or is it a giant ball of gas floating millions of miles away? Only one of those things can be true, and it's possible for the PCs (through things like divination, crystal balls, or just flying real high to take a look) to figure out which of those tings is the actual truth.
...

This is your problem right here.

The PC's should not have the power to "figure it out".

Nerf magic.

Problem solved.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 14, 2021, 10:14:24 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 13, 2021, 12:17:37 PM
I've tried coming up with myths for my campaign but I could never solve what I call the Apollo Problem: Is the sun the flaming wheel of Apollo's chariot, or is it the flaming eye of Horus, or is it a giant ball of gas floating millions of miles away? Only one of those things can be true, and it's possible for the PCs (through things like divination, crystal balls, or just flying real high to take a look) to figure out which of those tings is the actual truth.
...

This is your problem right here.

The PC's should not have the power to "figure it out".

Nerf magic.

Problem solved.

DnD is certainly not for everyone.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 14, 2021, 10:14:24 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 13, 2021, 12:17:37 PM
I've tried coming up with myths for my campaign but I could never solve what I call the Apollo Problem: Is the sun the flaming wheel of Apollo's chariot, or is it the flaming eye of Horus, or is it a giant ball of gas floating millions of miles away? Only one of those things can be true, and it's possible for the PCs (through things like divination, crystal balls, or just flying real high to take a look) to figure out which of those tings is the actual truth.
...

This is your problem right here.

The PC's should not have the power to "figure it out".

Nerf magic.

Problem solved.

Greetings!

NERF MAGIC. Yes, this is indeed what the DM needs to do in their campaign. If the DM is wearing the Viking Hat properly, it is the DM that must first realize that the DM CONTROLS THE CAMPAIGN--the campaign doesn't control the DM. Or more specifically, every aspect of every rule and game system contained within the game--and Magic is one of the campaign's game systems.

Certainly, if the DM so chooses to run a totally "GONZO" campaign--allowing the whole magic system to be used unshackled is most certain to produce a very "GONZO" style of campaign milieu. Nothing wrong with that, by the way--if it is your full intention. However, if the DM has in mind to run and develop a certain kind of campaign that isn't "GONZO", then the DM must review the magic system very carefully, and adjudicate with a swift and ruthless hand. Otherwise, level by level, the player characters will embrace the full scope of the magical powers and spells of the game, and any carefully crafted campaign that isn't "GONZO" will be totally trashed in short order.

Thus, we have here examples within the game of numerous knowledge-gathering spells that do serious damage to a whole landscape of culture, history, mythology, religion, and even cosmology. So, yes, those spells must be brutally stripped from the game, so that player characters actually remain mythical, heroic type characters from legends and history alike--instead of demi-godlike superheroes with a vast toolbox of godlike powers at their fingertips, at a moments notice. Such terrible elements create a omniscient, all-pervasive knowledge base of absolute knowledge and certainty.

That dynamic right there is sure to bury any kind of mythical "wonder" in your campaigns.

In my own campaigns, I use much of the magic system, but I heavily adjudicate it. Resurrection spells, raise dead spells, knowledge spells, gate spells, planar travel spells, talking with gods and goddesses like you have them on speed-dial in your cell phone--no. Fuck all that. All that kind of stuff is fucking gone entirely, or otherwise heavily modified. Any of that kind of thing remains very firmly and absolutely within MY hands--not the players. At various times and places, with certain special events, occasions, or magical items, the players may gain temporary access to some kind of power, though such is very limited, and kept tailored to the restraints of good mythical, historical, and narrative standards--which also combine to contribute to how actual *game play* develops as well, not just in the immediate scenario the players find themselves in, but for the entire campaign.

DM's simply always need to keep these considerations in mind, and put serious thought into them before even beginning a campaign.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shasarak on April 15, 2021, 12:15:35 AM
DnD is certainly not for everyone.

For a traditional mythic feel, you can have a ton of powerful magic items, but if you challenge the gods by trying to fly to Heaven and find out The Truth, they will still smite you for your presumption. The lesson being Hubris and Nemesis.

Of course it's fine to run an American Superheroes type campaign where you can beat up the gods, original D&D is far more Marvel than Myth (or you could say that the American core myth valorises Hubris), and getting a traditional mythic feel requires quite a shift in base assumptions.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 14, 2021, 10:14:24 PM
This is your problem right here.

The PC's should not have the power to "figure it out".

Nerf magic.

Problem solved.

You could do a Runequest Dreamtime/Godtime type approach where each PC who 'figures it out' sees exactly what they expect to see. This works for a setting like Runequest Glorantha where the PCs are living in a world shaped by myth, rather than them being the mythic heroes themselves. If the setting is an actual (eg) Greek mythology setting then all the PCs should already have the same expectations. But if you're running a game set in a magical version of Athens 300 BC then the setting needs to accommodate the differing views of the philosophers, the public, foreigners etc without any one being indisputably The Truth.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 14, 2021, 11:47:54 AM

Quote from: S'mon on April 14, 2021, 09:24:50 AMLike I said, once you're applying a scientific world view to myth, you've already failed.

I would take that thought even more extreme:  Once you're applying a scientific OR fictional world view to myth, you've already failed.  The most common* mistake a modern makes about "myth" is the immediate assumption of "fiction". 

It occurs to me that in today's world with the influence of Postmodernism, the Powers That Be tend to think in terms of Narrative, of 'controlling the Narrative' - the fiction about how the world works - which is mixed up with Enlightenment-Scientific thinking. They tend to give lip service to Scientific Truth while using it in the service of Narrative, and are very hostile to Mythic Truth, which tends to get in the way of the Narrative.

Quote from: S'mon on April 15, 2021, 01:57:42 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 14, 2021, 11:47:54 AM

Quote from: S'mon on April 14, 2021, 09:24:50 AMLike I said, once you're applying a scientific world view to myth, you've already failed.

I would take that thought even more extreme:  Once you're applying a scientific OR fictional world view to myth, you've already failed.  The most common* mistake a modern makes about "myth" is the immediate assumption of "fiction". 

It occurs to me that in today's world with the influence of Postmodernism, the Powers That Be tend to think in terms of Narrative, of 'controlling the Narrative' - the fiction about how the world works - which is mixed up with Enlightenment-Scientific thinking. They tend to give lip service to Scientific Truth while using it in the service of Narrative, and are very hostile to Mythic Truth, which tends to get in the way of the Narrative.

Yes.  Mythic thought cuts at a different angle.  to the Powers That Be (and not just the current ones) it is always dangerous.  Powerful, useful at times, but dangerous to established ideas--like a chainsaw.  Even false myths are dangerous to them, because they exercise a person's imagination in tandem with their "philosophy" of the world.  However, it is not the "Free thought" of the skeptic but something more channeled. 

Which by the way is the one thing I see in the Gloranthan myths that is lacking.  Sure, they have a nod to danger, and real risk to to the characters in trying to manipulate them.  However, in deconstructing how myths work otherwise, they've removed that sense that something is happening with the myth that is out of control.  A myth should have backing it some element of Terror or Awe--in the original meaning of the words, not what a modern would translate into Terrific or Awesome!  Yet another way in which the modern mind struggles with myth because of how mangled is the language in which the modern thinks.

I run more "fantastical" than "mythic" because when I do include a myth, I want to make sure I do it right.  Merely "fantastical" doesn't need to meet that standard to give a feel for the setting.  For example, a talking badger is fantastical.  A talking badger that comes from a mysterious society that have insight into some awesome truth could be mythic. Even if the "truth" is all wrong.   

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 15, 2021, 08:43:39 AM
Yes.  Mythic thought cuts at a different angle.  to the Powers That Be (and not just the current ones) it is always dangerous.  Powerful, useful at times, but dangerous to established ideas--like a chainsaw.  Even false myths are dangerous to them, because they exercise a person's imagination in tandem with their "philosophy" of the world.  However, it is not the "Free thought" of the skeptic but something more channeled. 

Which by the way is the one thing I see in the Gloranthan myths that is lacking.  Sure, they have a nod to danger, and real risk to to the characters in trying to manipulate them.  However, in deconstructing how myths work otherwise, they've removed that sense that something is happening with the myth that is out of control.  A myth should have backing it some element of Terror or Awe--in the original meaning of the words, not what a modern would translate into Terrific or Awesome!  Yet another way in which the modern mind struggles with myth because of how mangled is the language in which the modern thinks.

I run more "fantastical" than "mythic" because when I do include a myth, I want to make sure I do it right.  Merely "fantastical" doesn't need to meet that standard to give a feel for the setting.  For example, a talking badger is fantastical.  A talking badger that comes from a mysterious society that have insight into some awesome truth could be mythic. Even if the "truth" is all wrong.

Great post.

Yeah, I think in my campaigns typically the myth-world is something that exists at the edges, just out of the corner of one's eye. If you try to bring it into focus it slides away. But I like the sense that it's there; it makes the world feel much more real.

Quote from: S'mon on April 15, 2021, 01:44:13 AMFor a traditional mythic feel, you can have a ton of powerful magic items, but if you challenge the gods by trying to fly to Heaven and find out The Truth, they will still smite you for your presumption. The lesson being Hubris and Nemesis.

Yet this is exactly what happened when Odysseus traveled to the underworld. He saw exactly what he expected to see. He didn't, for example, see Osiris or Hunhau.

It seems all the replies to my question have all been that you need to limit the PCs to NOT being the heroes of legend (nor possessing the abilities of those heroes) but instead be ordinary people who only hear the legends and never experience them first hand.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 15, 2021, 02:50:28 PM

Quote from: S'mon on April 15, 2021, 01:44:13 AMFor a traditional mythic feel, you can have a ton of powerful magic items, but if you challenge the gods by trying to fly to Heaven and find out The Truth, they will still smite you for your presumption. The lesson being Hubris and Nemesis.

Yet this is exactly what happened when Odysseus traveled to the underworld. He saw exactly what he expected to see. He didn't, for example, see Osiris or Hunhau.

It seems all the replies to my question have all been that you need to limit the PCs to NOT being the heroes of legend (nor possessing the abilities of those heroes) but instead be ordinary people who only hear the legends and never experience them first hand.

You're missing a distinction between Legend and Myth. Legends are the stories we tell about heroes, people we want to emulate. Myths are the stories we tell about the way the world works. You can have legendary heroes who interact with Myth (Odysseus at the mouth of Hade's realm), but they can't overthrow the mythic order -- not even deified mortals like Herakles are able to pull that off.

Quote from: ScytheSong on April 15, 2021, 03:34:43 PM
You're missing a distinction between Legend and Myth. Legends are the stories we tell about heroes, people we want to emulate. Myths are the stories we tell about the way the world works. You can have legendary heroes who interact with Myth (Odysseus at the mouth of Hade's realm), but they can't overthrow the mythic order -- not even deified mortals like Herakles are able to pull that off.

"Mythic order" is a good way to think about it.  In most cases, not even the gods can defy it.  That's why Asgard is doomed to fall.  Zeus can overthrow his father because the mythic order said it would happen.  Sure, that drags "fate" into the conversation too, but with a lot of myths, how fate operates is part of the mythic order. 

In FRPGs, whenever someone identifies that they hold a truism preventing the emulation of some phenomenon, the first answer is to drop the truism

Such as the idea that there can be only one way to observe the sun, or Hell. 

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 15, 2021, 02:50:28 PM

Quote from: S'mon on April 15, 2021, 01:44:13 AMFor a traditional mythic feel, you can have a ton of powerful magic items, but if you challenge the gods by trying to fly to Heaven and find out The Truth, they will still smite you for your presumption. The lesson being Hubris and Nemesis.

Yet this is exactly what happened

https://www.worldhistory.org/Bellerophon/#:~:text=Bellerophon%20(aka%20Bellerophontes)%20is%20the,lion%2C%20goat%2C%20and%20snake.

Bellerophon tries to defy the Mythic Order by flying to Heaven/Olympus. He dies.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 15, 2021, 02:50:28 PM
It seems all the replies to my question have all been that you need to limit the PCs to NOT being the heroes of legend (nor possessing the abilities of those heroes) but instead be ordinary people who only hear the legends and never experience them first hand.

You can certainly play a game where the PCs are the legendary heroes, equivalent of Odysseus & co. I'm planning to run Odyssey of the Dragonlords, which does exactly that. But I get the impression that's not really what you want.

Quote from: Shasarak on April 15, 2021, 12:15:35 AM
DnD is certainly not for everyone.

It is not, but that also raises an interesting question.

In our post-OGL hobby:

Is D&D just the current official Edition?

If you are playing an older edition or a retro-clone, is that D&D?

Were the guys who were playing the E6 variant of 3e which trimmed out a lot of the game breaking spells still playing D&D?

If you choose to curate your spell lists like Shark advocates:

Quote from: SHARK on April 15, 2021, 01:21:16 AM
...

NERF MAGIC. Yes, this is indeed what the DM needs to do in their campaign. If the DM is wearing the Viking Hat properly, it is the DM that must first realize that the DM CONTROLS THE CAMPAIGN--the campaign doesn't control the DM. Or more specifically, every aspect of every rule and game system contained within the game--and Magic is one of the campaign's game systems.

... if the DM has in mind to run and develop a certain kind of campaign that isn't "GONZO", then the DM must review the magic system very carefully, and adjudicate with a swift and ruthless hand. Otherwise, level by level, the player characters will embrace the full scope of the magical powers and spells of the game, and any carefully crafted campaign that isn't "GONZO" will be totally trashed in short order.


In my own campaigns, I use much of the magic system, but I heavily adjudicate it. Resurrection spells, raise dead spells, knowledge spells, gate spells, planar travel spells, talking with gods and goddesses like you have them on speed-dial in your cell phone--no. Fuck all that. All that kind of stuff is fucking gone entirely, or otherwise heavily modified. Any of that kind of thing remains very firmly and absolutely within MY hands--not the players....

DM's simply always need to keep these considerations in mind, and put serious thought into them before even beginning a campaign.
...

Is Shark still playing D&D?

Classes, Levels, six ability scores, armor class, and saves...

How much can you cut away and still say you are playing D&D?

Quote from: S'mon on April 15, 2021, 01:44:13 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on April 15, 2021, 12:15:35 AM
DnD is certainly not for everyone.

For a traditional mythic feel, you can have a ton of powerful magic items, but if you challenge the gods by trying to fly to Heaven and find out The Truth, they will still smite you for your presumption. The lesson being Hubris and Nemesis.

Will they smite you?  Or will you find out that your real Dad was actually Zeus all a long.

Take the Christian story of Abraham arguing with God about sparing Sodom and Gomorrah for example.  Where exactly did God smite Abraham for his presumption of arguing back to God?

Quote from: Shasarak on April 15, 2021, 10:41:12 PM
Take the Christian story of Abraham arguing with God about sparing Sodom and Gomorrah for example.  Where exactly did God smite Abraham for his presumption of arguing back to God?

Abraham wasn't arguing back to God; he was haggling. Big difference.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 15, 2021, 11:13:32 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on April 15, 2021, 10:41:12 PM
Take the Christian story of Abraham arguing with God about sparing Sodom and Gomorrah for example.  Where exactly did God smite Abraham for his presumption of arguing back to God?

Abraham wasn't arguing back to God; he was haggling. Big difference.

He also failed!

I was thinking of Bellerophon, the most magic-item laden Greek hero, perishing when he tried to join the gods on Olympus.

Quote from: S'mon on April 16, 2021, 01:48:30 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 15, 2021, 11:13:32 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on April 15, 2021, 10:41:12 PM
Take the Christian story of Abraham arguing with God about sparing Sodom and Gomorrah for example.  Where exactly did God smite Abraham for his presumption of arguing back to God?

Abraham wasn't arguing back to God; he was haggling. Big difference.

He also failed!

I was thinking of Bellerophon, the most magic-item laden Greek hero, perishing when he tried to join the gods on Olympus.

He argued with God, talked him down from just destroying the city and did not get smited for his hubris.

Not really seeing the failure there.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 15, 2021, 04:55:01 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on April 15, 2021, 12:15:35 AM
DnD is certainly not for everyone.

It is not, but that also raises an interesting question.

In our post-OGL hobby:

Is D&D just the current official Edition?

If you are playing an older edition or a retro-clone, is that D&D?

Were the guys who were playing the E6 variant of 3e which trimmed out a lot of the game breaking spells still playing D&D?

If you choose to curate your spell lists like Shark advocates:

Quote from: SHARK on April 15, 2021, 01:21:16 AM
...

NERF MAGIC. Yes, this is indeed what the DM needs to do in their campaign. If the DM is wearing the Viking Hat properly, it is the DM that must first realize that the DM CONTROLS THE CAMPAIGN--the campaign doesn't control the DM. Or more specifically, every aspect of every rule and game system contained within the game--and Magic is one of the campaign's game systems.

... if the DM has in mind to run and develop a certain kind of campaign that isn't "GONZO", then the DM must review the magic system very carefully, and adjudicate with a swift and ruthless hand. Otherwise, level by level, the player characters will embrace the full scope of the magical powers and spells of the game, and any carefully crafted campaign that isn't "GONZO" will be totally trashed in short order.


In my own campaigns, I use much of the magic system, but I heavily adjudicate it. Resurrection spells, raise dead spells, knowledge spells, gate spells, planar travel spells, talking with gods and goddesses like you have them on speed-dial in your cell phone--no. Fuck all that. All that kind of stuff is fucking gone entirely, or otherwise heavily modified. Any of that kind of thing remains very firmly and absolutely within MY hands--not the players....

DM's simply always need to keep these considerations in mind, and put serious thought into them before even beginning a campaign.
...

Is Shark still playing D&D?

Classes, Levels, six ability scores, armor class, and saves...

How much can you cut away and still say you are playing D&D?

TBH, I don't even know. D&D has changed so much over the last two editions, I don't even know what D&D is anymore. People often bring up ability scores when comparing 5e to earlier editions, as if to say "See? This game has the same ability scores, therefore it is D&D!"

But is it? Is merely the appearance of a thing the same thing as the thing itself when everything behind its inner workings has changed? Is that all D&D is; six ability scores with the same name?

3e, as much as many like to whine about it, at least seemed like a natural evolution of D&D. AC and THAC0 were flipped on their heads, with AC made ascending and THAC0 turned into a modifier so you could just compare your roll to the target's AC value, which is more intuitive. But the underlying math and mechanics were still mostly the same.

Now characters don't even have an attack bonus or THAC0 analogue, just a universal Proficiency Bonus, and everyone's bonus is just the same—for everything! There's NO difference between Class A and Class B when making ability rolls other than their ability score modifiers and whether or not they have "Proficiency" in whatever the hell they're rolling.

The game has changed so much people need to point to superficial crap like ability score names to claim it's the same game. Truth is it's the same game in name only, cuz the TM holder chose to publish it under the same name.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 15, 2021, 02:50:28 PM

Quote from: S'mon on April 15, 2021, 01:44:13 AMFor a traditional mythic feel, you can have a ton of powerful magic items, but if you challenge the gods by trying to fly to Heaven and find out The Truth, they will still smite you for your presumption. The lesson being Hubris and Nemesis.

Yet this is exactly what happened when Odysseus traveled to the underworld. He saw exactly what he expected to see. He didn't, for example, see Osiris or Hunhau.

It seems all the replies to my question have all been that you need to limit the PCs to NOT being the heroes of legend (nor possessing the abilities of those heroes) but instead be ordinary people who only hear the legends and never experience them first hand.

hedgehobbit, please consider that *everyone* disagreeing with you in this thread means you might need to read more carefully or question some of your premises. I don't understand the first sentence of your response, and "Not being the heroes of legend" is a pretty uncharitable reading of what Shark said - I'm not thinking of any heroes of legend who had the ready access to overwhelmingly effective & legible divination that stock high-level D&D characters might have.

Well of course someone who sees gods will see the gods that he is familiar with. That's how gods work.