Just out of curiosity I'm wondering how many games out there can fit these criteria.  First things first, the games I like are generally not based on D&D rules, but I also know that D&D and OSR are the majority of the hobby or RPG's.  I don't hate D&D, but it isn't my favorite.

I am looking for fantasy RPG's, though if you think a sci-fi or modern day game setting can fit these design choices, then go ahead and mention it.

Ok, these are the characteristics I would like to see.

1.  Warrior classes are customizable as they level up.
2.  More than just the basic four classes of fighter/cleric/thief/wizard.
3.  Armor is a savings throw.
4.  Magic is non-Vancian.  I prefer energy points, or spells per day, ect.  I also recognize that alternate magic systems area wide and varied.  I just don't like forgetting spells after you cast them.
5A.  Weapons (and sometimes armor) have traits.  Things to differentiate between a 1-handed sword and a 1-handed mace.
5B.  If you can't do #5 weapon traits, then weapons are treated as if none of them are different beyond 1-or 2-handed.  A 2-handed axe is the same as a two-handed hammer. ect.  Basically there are three weapons:  Dual wielding 1-handers, a weapon + shield combo, or a two hander.  What they are is irrelevant.

Right now the games I can think of that fit these criteria are listed below.  Note:  I don't know every game, so I am interested in as many new games that fit the criteria I laid out above.

1.  West End Games Star Wars (or my preferred version called Mini-six Bare Bones).  It does fail a bit with weapons, but the games also treat weapons more like 5B.  A blaster pistol is a blaster pistol.  It is also classless, so it is a bit of stretch to say it fits all of the above the requirements.

2.  Kogarashi.  This Samurai flavored RPG is probably almost unheard of, but I got it a week or so ago and like it.  It does all of the above, with weapons using 5B (weapons are either 1 or 2 handed, and that is it).

3.  Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool.  This one is pretty much the game I prefer for Fantasy right now.  It really only has one flaw, and that is the armor isn't a savings throw.  Armor is treated as extra hit points that reappear after every fight.

4.  Star Adventurer (and probably Lion and Dragon it is based on).  Class customization is not much, but it is no more or less than other classes.  Powers are skill checks.

Anybody got any suggestions?

The Free League fantasy games meet most of the criteria other than armor as a save potentially so I'd recommend Dragonbane and Forbidden Lands as they're both very solid and well regarded rulesets.

My Ruins & Realms system I've been working on meets all of the above criteria (warriors are fully customizable, way more classes than the standard four, all the defenses are checks made by the players, Magic is non-Vancian, Weapons have traits (spellcasting tools do too for that for that matter, a wand is more accurate, a staff lets you cast more easily in melee, a tome makes attacks more potent, etc.).

If you want the basically done but for art-assets (there's a lot, I'm just not done with them all yet) Player's Guide and the in-process GM's Guide (all the mechanics are there and work, but I've decided the pre-gen monsters need a little extra spice), DM me and I'll hook you up.

Yeah armor as a save is going to be the sticking point there: I can't think of many games that use armor strictly like a D&D saving throw, but a couple things which might be close enough:

Dragon Warriors: Armor presents a difficulty level to which each weapon has to make a roll to bypass it. That's functionally the same as a save, but with the die rolled by the other party. The different armor-piercing values also go a long way to differentiate between weapons. The two "warrior" classes (knight and barbarian) are both minimally customizable, but there's a free fanmade supplement called "Cadaver Dravonis" which you can find around the internet which introduces what are essentially class kits, and that adds a ton of customization. The half-warrior classes of Warlock and Assassin are more customizable out of the box. It uses an MP system for magic.

Machinations of the Space Princess: Uses armor as a damage soak, but you roll a die on each hit to see how much it soaks, so that's kind of like a saving throw. Uses an MP system for psionics (which is what it calls magic). It still basically uses the 4-class system, but re-flavored for sci fi, and all the classes get some skill points to customize with.

Outside of the armor save part, I'd say your best bet is Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying. Armor is a flat soak in that (IIRC), but since it's profession-based rather than class-based, there are dozens of professions, and any of the warrior professions can be hugely customized by going down a different career path and picking different talents. WFRP is the best experience I've had with weapon characteristics, and quite a few of the weapons have special qualities. It's non-vancian magic as well. I'm pretty sure any edition of WFRP would fit the requirements, but 2nd and 4th are generally the most highly regarded.

EDIT: I've played both 2nd and 4th edition of WFRP. There's pros and cons either way, but on balance I prefer 2nd. There's more professions and the progression is a bit more open. On the flip side, some of the rules for 4th edition make more sense, and the open progression of 2nd edition can lead to munchkinism.

If you want a rules-light version of same, you're looking for Warlock!, but with the move to rules light you also lose some of the weapon diversity and customization.

If you want a game that does everything WFRP does, but worse, look at the 2d20 system.

I assume from the question you're not looking for fully classless games, but I'd assume any of the BRP-based games would also meet the requirements other than armor save. Savage Worlds would as well. That has minimal weapon qualities, but it's easy to homebrew in more if you want them.

EDIT: the more reading I do on how armor works in real life, and the more I think about it in game context, the more I do think an armor save or armor-piercing roll is the most sensible way of doing it. It's a pity it isn't more common.

Greetings!

You should check out Rolemaster. Rolemaster has dozens of classes, dozens of magic spells, different flavours and styles of magic--though the main magic system is presented in full detail; and excellent detail for armour, and weapons. ARMS LAW AND CLAW LAW are the best! So many options and variants to change everything, from magic, to classes, to skills. Rolemaster is a fantastic game system. The one major flaw is that the layers of detail are time consuming for the creation of Player Characters and NPC alike. That *Flaw*--such as it is, has cascading effects of dissuasion against having any Player Character or favoured NPC ever die, because making up new characters can very much be a time-consuming process.

As a corollary, advancing Characters, whether Player Characters or NPC's, can likewise be a time-consuming process.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on April 21, 2024, 07:08:38 AMThat *Flaw*--such as it is, has cascading effects of dissuasion against having any Player Character or favoured NPC ever die, because making up new characters can very much be a time-consuming process.

OK, SHARK, you're going to have to explain to me how you managed to "dissuade" the game from having characters die.  Dude, the game is so deadly we've never gotten a single character past 8th level!  What's the attack roll?  96, 99, 94...  Your head explodes!

Seconding the Warlock! suggestion. It does most of what you ask and it simple enough to modify to add more.

HackMaster maybe?

Armour as a saving throw narrows it down a lot.  Normally I'm all about Rolemaster but that's not how it works.

I'm going to suggest BRP Stormbringer because it has armour as die roll for damage resistance.  Also BRP is always very open character development and everyone's a fighter.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 20, 2024, 10:39:12 PMOk, these are the characteristics I would like to see.

1.  Warrior classes are customizable as they level up.
2.  More than just the basic four classes of fighter/cleric/thief/wizard.
3.  Armor is a savings throw.
4.  Magic is non-Vancian.  I prefer energy points, or spells per day, ect.  I also recognize that alternate magic systems area wide and varied.  I just don't like forgetting spells after you cast them.
5A.  Weapons (and sometimes armor) have traits.  Things to differentiate between a 1-handed sword and a 1-handed mace.
5B.  If you can't do #5 weapon traits, then weapons are treated as if none of them are different beyond 1-or 2-handed.  A 2-handed axe is the same as a two-handed hammer. ect.  Basically there are three weapons:  Dual wielding 1-handers, a weapon + shield combo, or a two hander.  What they are is irrelevant.

Weirdguy,

I have two suggestions, but I don't think you will like them.

Suggestion 1: True 20

1. T20 has Warrior feats, which are the textbook definition of customizing as you level up.

2. T20 has three basis classes (Adept, Fighter, Expert) so it technically fails, but it's expected you will combine them to make your own build. So maybe it passes?

3. T20 is one of the only games I know that has an armor save (called a damage save.) Frankly, it was awful. Mutants and Masterminds is the other, and it works a bit better in MM3E. 

4. T20 magic causes Fatigue.

5. T20 uses standard 3.5 weapons (sort of) which have many traits.

Suggestion 2: Gurps Lite

1. Gurps can build different fighters via skills, advantages, and maneuvers.

2. Gurps doesn't have classes per se, but it does have dozens of Templates which are pre-arranged packages of stuff.

3. Gurps does not have an armor save. It uses damage resistance.

4. The default Gurps magic burns fatigue points. There are other options.

5. Gurps weapons have different traits.

Greetings!

Yeah, my friend! Simply the dynamic cascades into not wanting anyone to die because of the hours and hours it takes to make a character. The same kind of "emerging flaw" can be seen in D&D 3E. It emerges at about 6th level or so, and continues. This laborious process then leverages other unsatisfying dynamics for the campaign as a whole. I had many years of fun with Rolemaster and 3E, but after grappling with the layers and layers of detail, and the laborious process of character creation--I have grown to reaching the place where I appreciate simple, fast systems, such as Shadowdark.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I consider damage reduction a type of savings throw. That counts. 

Dragon Warriors.  I had forgotten about that.  It's embarrassing because I have that game in hardcover as well. 

Warlock.  I have that game in PDF.  Overall, I think that game is a bit harsh.  That is on purpose because of the setting as a knock-off Warhammer Fantasy.  That isn't what I'm looking for. 

The point of this thread is just to see what's out there for games with rules I might like.  I'm a bit of a collector, so we shall see. 

The game that I'm currently creating meets this criteria. That doesn't necessarily mean you'd like the end result though.

I'd be happy to talk about it, but I'm not sure what the rules are for self-promotion.

Let me know if
a) you care to hear about it and
b) if it would violate a forum rule or not.

Adventurers! by Umberto Pignatelli has most of this, except it is not classes, it is skill based. Armor is a roll to absorb damage.