I'd love to see a Kickstarter book by some of the people here on how to run *any* game as a sandbox. There have been examples on the site of people running Amber, Aces and Eights, and VtM. I did back the "Return of the Lazy GM" and purchased a bunch of PbTA stuff on Fronts, but I'd really like to see something that goes into detail on what you do between sessions AND, more importantly, how you translate your sandbox prep or improv into interesting responses. What kinds of things might an NPC do in response to players? What interesting tools do you use to keep track of stuff?
There is no set way. As I like to tell people over on BGG. Varies wildly from one to the next
My style might not fit your style or might fit yours but not someone elses. There are ALOT of different ways to go about it!
Big factor is how much improv vs prep? This can be a major divide in style of sandbox.
And then there is the matter of how much improve or prep?
And then there are plots/world in motion or no plots/no world in motion?
And then there is scope and focus. Town? Kingdom? Region? How important or not are the PCs?
And then there is style. Dungeon crawling? Wilderness exploration? Kingdom building? Citycrawling? Intrigue?
And so on. Each adding variations and permutations that can and will effect how one DM goes about it from how someone else does.
And that is not even touching on how much freedom or not the players have within. Are plots set in stone? Malleable? Mere fever dreams awaiting the PCs to evaporate it? Or is everything up in the air and nebulous, born from the moment as inspiration hits based only on what the players do? Something in between?
Quote from: Omega;1066560There is no set way. As I like to tell people over on BGG. Varies wildly from one to the next
My style might not fit your style or might fit yours but not someone elses. There are ALOT of different ways to go about it!
True, but inspiration never hurts. A book on a specific sandbox technique might be a lightbulb moment for someone who hasn't done it at all.
Quote from: PencilBoy99;1066556I'd love to see a Kickstarter book by some of the people here on how to run *any* game as a sandbox. There have been examples on the site of people running Amber, Aces and Eights, and VtM. I did back the "Return of the Lazy GM" and purchased a bunch of PbTA stuff on Fronts, but I'd really like to see something that goes into detail on what you do between sessions AND, more importantly, how you translate your sandbox prep or improv into interesting responses. What kinds of things might an NPC do in response to players? What interesting tools do you use to keep track of stuff?
PbtA already answers those exact questions (see Countdown clocks, NPCs agendas and GM moves, etc) but in a way specific to it's design ethos, which probably won't be so fitting for a hexcrawl sandbox, for example.
And that's part of the problem of your request: sandbox/player-driven play is not so unified as it seems, and different sub-styles may ask for different methods or tools, making it difficult to be contained in a single book/package.
Edit: Thinking again, a "Bible of Sandbox" with all techniques and tools seen in all games from the start of the hobby until present day, with advice on where/when to use each, is not a bad idea.
Take a look at How to Run (https://www.amazon.com/How-Run-Alexis-D-Smolensk-ebook/dp/B00MENQP8C/) by Alexis D. Smolensk, if you don't mind eBooks. The author is a bit full of himself and dismissive of any game newer than AD&D 1 E, but he does give good examples of how to GM a sandbox campaign. However, the price of the eBook seems to have been jacked up considerably since I bought it. :( It was $15 when I bought it last year. Now it's $28.
All good points. I'll toss in my two centavos.
Quote from: Omega;1066560Big factor is how much improv vs prep? This can be a major divide in style of sandbox.
More of both is never bad. The issue for GM's wanting to learn how to "sandbox" is recognizing what you're weak at and attempting to fix those things while playing to your strengths. Improv is harder to learn than prepping.
Quote from: Omega;1066560And then there is the matter of how much improve or prep?
Improv happens when you're not prepped. Prep til if hurts, if you're not sure. The point where you haven't prepared for an eventuality - and those moments *will happen*. Is where your improv skills come in. What helps you learn how to improv? By UNDERSTANDING HOW YOUR WORLD WORKS. I treat my NPC's - ALL my NPC's as my characters. Diggle the Porter who is known for his insane balancing skills while carrying sundries around town, has goals to somehow marry his bosses daughter and take over the tavern where he works. This might *never* come out in the game if the PC's don't engage with him. But you bet your ass every scene he's in, I'm thinking about what he'd be doing to make that happen. My big antagonists are plotting their schemes and making moves - behind the scenes. So even if the players do something I don't account for - I already know what my NPC's are doing. Thus improv becomes easy because I know who is doing what and when they're doing it. More importantly I know WHY they're doing it.
The more detail you know you about your world. The easier it is to improv in it - because those details put the world in motion.
Quote from: Omega;1066560And then there are plots/world in motion or no plots/no world in motion?
For me - plots/world motion are essentially the same. If there are no plots and the players are in a bubble that surrounds only them and only exists within their own purview, I think those scenarios are good for dungeon-crawls. Or at least it relegates the rest of the game to heavy random-table use to generate content as the PC's move about. In my perspective I use such random elements within the context of the World In Motion simply to keep things fresh and spontaneous. The World In Motion reacts organically to such things. They can spawn plot-threads and adventures of their own.
Quote from: Omega;1066560And then there is scope and focus. Town? Kingdom? Region? How important or not are the PCs?
I stick with the holonic taxonomy of scale. Personal>Local>Local Regional>Regional>Kingdom>World. The level of importance is commensurate with the level of influence the PC's are willing/able to exercise on their own or by dint of whatever plots they've kicked off.
Quote from: Omega;1066560And then there is style. Dungeon crawling? Wilderness exploration? Kingdom building? Citycrawling? Intrigue?
Ideally, a good sandbox for me has ALL of it. But you could be doing something very localized which would limit such things as appropriate.
Quote from: Omega;1066560And that is not even touching on how much freedom or not the players have within. Are plots set in stone? Malleable? Mere fever dreams awaiting the PCs to evaporate it? Or is everything up in the air and nebulous, born from the moment as inspiration hits based only on what the players do? Something in between?
My sandboxes work like this.
Pick/create a setting. Decide if there are any themes to the game? Swashbuckling? Knights? Mercenaries? Mages? War? etc. This should help you decide where/how you want to start things. I start populating my setting with things I think might be of interest. Locales, NPC's, these form the web which interconnects the various ideas that describe how the setting's status-quo is when the game starts.
This doesn't mean the status-quo within the setting is "set in stone" - that's up to the players. But it there's always some NPC(s) that certainly want the status-quo changed - and they will have their plots and schemes to do that. OR not - perhaps they're waiting for an opportunity to enact their schemes based on the situation.
I start building locally, then branch out. I figure out what kind of basic economy, level of crime, community threats, authorities that maintain order - I flesh all those things out. Usually I'll know who the real movers and shakers are. This alone will create the webwork of the starting status-quo. It will also bring up other questions that spiral out from these groups. Basically who serves in these factions? Who serves those people? etc.
Then I figure out independent factions and NPC's that have their own machinations between the major power-holders of the status-quo but fit into the scheme of things as necessary "evils". For example - I might have a city bureaucrat that uses an NPC that has criminal contacts to help "facilitate" the needs of the City off the books. That NPC might have his own gang of thugs. They may/may not be part of the Thieves Guild(s) - that alone is a conflict point. Who is this NPC? What else does he do? Who works for him directly? Who does he answer to aside from the Bureaucrat? - all of this is fodder for conflict the PC's can run afoul/join in on.
Then I figure out who are the outside threats (if any) that cause conflict in any of the various tiers of the status-quo, outline those as needed. Figure out who/what/why/how for them.
I do all of this before I even start character generation. Because once we get to Char-Gen I can talk to the players with authority and confidence about what the setting is about - what are the known issues, good/bad. And what is readily available based on the starting locale's demographics. Plugging in their background is easy - and fun. Because you already know most of the local history and NPC's yourself. Even if a player wants to come in with his own special background - family, mentors etc. You should already know how to plug that into your setting AND adjust your setting to accommodate those elements to both of your liking.
Once all the PC's are hammered into the setting - everyone should already know a little bit/lot about why they'e there and what is going on - and you plop them down to do whatever it is they want. At some point they will either plug into the goings on or create their own - you react accordingly. The World in Motion is powered by the Plots of the PC's and NPC's.
Quote from: PencilBoy99;1066556I'd love to see a Kickstarter book by some of the people here on how to run *any* game as a sandbox. There have been examples on the site of people running Amber, Aces and Eights, and VtM. I did back the "Return of the Lazy GM" and purchased a bunch of PbTA stuff on Fronts, but I'd really like to see something that goes into detail on what you do between sessions AND, more importantly, how you translate your sandbox prep or improv into interesting responses. What kinds of things might an NPC do in response to players? What interesting tools do you use to keep track of stuff?
Every NPC in a sandbox has a goal. It may conflict with other NPCs and PCs. Or it may not. Each NPC has character. The players simply role-play any situation because character-driven. That's it for running a sandbox. It isn't rocket science.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1066582True, but inspiration never hurts. A book on a specific sandbox technique might be a lightbulb moment for someone who hasn't done it at all.
True. But my usual style of mostly on the fly improv sandboxing is really not not everyone. When I am running that mode I am literally tracking in my head alot of ongoing plot threads (if any are rolling) and NPCs at once. Sometimes I do not know what an NPC will do until they do it. Or react to the PCs. Other times I have a good idea of how things will go down based on what is known up to that point.
Usually I start with a partially fleshed out map as my basis. BX's map is still my go-to for that. But I have random-genned maps or map elements before or just left it nebulous till an idea occurs and then jot it down as a permanent feature. (assuming the PCs do not raze it to the ground.)
Random gen tables may get alot of use or placements may spring fourth on their own based on what is known or out of the blue. I've gotten really good at using the random gen tables as an oracle system for getting a grasp on what might be going on.
Improv and Sandboxing are not mutually exclusive. I think it's scaling issue where the larger the scale of your sandbox, the less consistent and cohesive your Improv gets.
The more prep you do the more this mitigates the coherency loss and lets you operate high-improv in large sandboxes easier. That make sense? This is of course an idea that is also vastly dependent on the skills of the GM in question.
Which also suggests: small scale = easier to learn across the board.
Quote from: tenbones;1066648Improv and Sandboxing are not mutually exclusive. I think it's scaling issue where the larger the scale of your sandbox, the less consistent and cohesive your Improv gets.
The more prep you do the more this mitigates the coherency loss and lets you operate high-improv in large sandboxes easier. That make sense? This is of course an idea that is also vastly dependent on the skills of the GM in question.
Which also suggests: small scale = easier to learn across the board.
That was actually one of the design goals of Thunder Rift from TSR. A smaller campaign area with just enough for a DM to springboard off of however they wished.
Quote from: Omega;1066660That was actually one of the design goals of Thunder Rift from TSR. A smaller campaign area with just enough for a DM to springboard off of however they wished.
I think Pinnacle's "Plotpoint Campaigns" are close to this. It's a good tool for folks new to learning how to get free of the railroad style of GMing.
Quote from: tenbones;1066837I think Pinnacle's "Plotpoint Campaigns" are close to this. It's a good tool for folks new to learning how to get free of the railroad style of GMing.
Most DMs and about every non-storygame RPG out there dont railroad to get out from under anyhow. Even much maligned Dragonlance modules wasnt at the start and the actual RPG sure wasnt.
Problem is that some peoples definition of railroad is way to freaking broad and a few start to approach "everything on earth" levels of loon.
The "This section of the map has only one entrance and one exit? This is a horrible railroad and MUST NEVER BE PLAYED!" or "The villain has sealed the area so the PCs cant just walk out? This is a horrible railroad and MUST NEVER BE PLAYED!"
I think videogames helped a lot of people grok the concept of sandbox. At least in my circles it's pretty normal too see referencing of GTAs/Fallouts/Elder Scrolls/etc.
Quote from: Itachi;1066950I think videogames helped a lot of people grok the concept of sandbox. At least in my circles it's pretty normal too see referencing of GTAs/Fallouts/Elder Scrolls/etc.
Except like the term RPG, Sandbox when applied to video games tends to have a very different meaning. And like with regular RPGs that meaning has been tweaked or broadened by some.
Free roaming but scripted encounters? Free foaming but random encounters? Sequential free roaming? Building stuff within a frame. Exploration. etc.
The only thing thats been more warped to the point of having no definition anymore is Roguelike. Whats that? Oh the map is generated randomly. or Oh your character can die. or oh procedurally generated... ad nausium.
Using videogames as an example of anything is a lesson in futility.
Don't know if I follow you, Omega.
What videogames popularly considered a sandbox do you think are not really a sandbox?
Quote from: PencilBoy99;1066556I'd love to see a Kickstarter book by some of the people here on how to run *any* game as a sandbox.
Any game can be run as a Sandbox.
Some games have a look and feel so they are expected to be run in a certain way, but GMs can run it their own way.
I was at Dragonmeet yesterday and in one of the Seminars, Jeff Richard, of Chaosium, made a very good point - Once you buy a game, it is yours, so do whatever you want with it. So, if you have run a game that normally has defined missions controlled by a central force, then you can run it as a sandbox. Similarly, if you have a game that is normally a sandbox, there is nothing to stop you running it as a series of missions. Borderlands, for RuneQuest, is like that, at its heart it is a glorious sandbox but the PCs are employed by a noble and are sent on defined missions, it works really well.