Quote from: VisionStorm on February 22, 2022, 11:12:57 AM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 22, 2022, 10:55:29 AMSo you're right that there's little precedence in literature, but then RPGs have different needs than literature.

Yeah, a lot of this has more to do with how to handle character abilities for purposes of "It's a Game!" and related issues like "game balance" than for what works in literature when telling a story. In a story a spell is usually just a plot device that can be molded to fit the needs of the narrative at the author's whim. In a game a spell is special trick a character has to get some type of benefit in the game. They're different circumstances and environments.

Again, they don't have to be so different. Narrative magic systems can closely emulate the magic seen in many stories, if that's what you want. Modiphius does this in its 2d20 Conan line with its Sorcery rules.

I don't advocate using rolls for all magic in that "Save vs. Monkey's Paw" situation. How I'd use it is to have there be a point where a skill roll becomes automatic and thus the magic becomes "Activate At Will" like standard D&D spellcasting. It's reaching beyond that which needs a roll- because that's where the Mage is moving beyond what he knows well enough to use safely and is starting to invoke forces he doesn't fully understand.


But this is just a theoretical situation. Because all Mages are sane and sensible people and nowhere in the fantasy genre is it believable that they would routinely gable the lives, souls and sanity of themselves and the people around them by meddling with Things Man Was Not Meant To Know because desire or desperation drove them to it. Right? 

Magic in D&D related games already has unpredictability based on saves. It's not blow up in your face and turn  your arm into a tentacle but it's a fail, and a fail in the way spells fail in the Conan books with our hero shaking off the effects due to increased Barbarian fitness or dodging or whatever.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 22, 2022, 11:48:03 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on February 22, 2022, 10:59:16 AMThis is just subjective movement of goalposts. Why would a spell blowing up on a wizard's face not be "magical"? How is chemistry not "magical" in a way?

Im not sure how this is moving goalposts.

Quote"Chemistry can make things blow up, and chemistry isn't magic, therefore things blowing up can't be magical (like multiple things can't make other things blow up)" isn't a logical statement.

Well Im pretty sure this is a strawman fallacy if your playing it that way.
The argument is that mystique comes from limited access and understanding. If you know the rules, even if they are skewed against you, the effect will not feel mystical. I presented that chemistry in modern day, doesn't feel mystical because we know enough of the rules.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 22, 2022, 10:55:29 AMSo you're right that there's little precedence in literature, but then RPGs have different needs than literature.

Yup.

I like SW, and SW has a 'roll to activate' mechanic, and I like it. I just don't think it makes it more mystical.

If you want mysticism, then study up real world occultism. One of the most mystical feeling magic systems I've ever come across was the alchemy system from Enlightened Magic by Chaosium. This is because it draws directly and heavily from real world occult tradition.

RPG magic systems don't feel mystical because they don't draw on the rich traditions of occultism we have in real life. They aren't intended to have spiritual components or to be holistically integrated into the metaphysical world building, they're intended entirely as materialistic problem solving tools for players to use.

I like magic systems that work as expected when what the practitioner is doing is well within his ability.  If the task is at the edge of his ability or probably too hard, then I like to have a possibility for various types of failure.  Just because real life mostly works this way.

I think it's worth noting that once upon a time blacksmiths were regarded as having secret magical knowledge (ie. the trade secrets of the craft that allowed for the creation of tempered steel instead of too soft or too brittle iron) and that even into the early Renaissance what we today call science was part of what used to be called "natural magic" (interestingly enough the one type of magic NOT condemned by the medieval Church as it was based on the study and use of materials provided by God rather than calling upon or trying to command spirits).

Basically, the distinction between science and magic is a fairly modern one and may not be one necessary to make in a game. At its core, magic is just what we call a process that we can't fully explain. In the real world we call what various magicians do magic because we can't fully explain how they create their illusions. But at the same time the magician fully understands the nature of his trick and so for him it's not "magical" but using various methods including materials and psychology to baffle their audience.

For the magician, magic isn't magic, it's science.

In the same way, how many of us really understand much of the technology we use every day? I know my phone I'm typing this from has circuits, a processor, a battery, screen, etc... but I couldn't begin to explain the physics and programming behind how a touch screen takes my taps and swipes on it and is translating it into the very text you're reading. Now engineers, programmers and other experts certainly do... they're the wizards... but to me it is functionally magic (useable magic... but nothing I have the skill or knowledge to duplicate; heck there's probably no one on this planet who could build a cellphone from scratch by themselves as there are so many materials and procedures involved just in making the parts, much less assembling and programming it all).

So when it comes to games I think it's worth remembering who PoV you're looking at. While all magic is likely mysterious to the average peasant, is it just as mysterious to the magician? If it is, then magic mechanics should probably be entirely GM facing... the magician can make educated guesses, but what part of his "spell" actually produces the effect isn't known to them.

If the magic is understood by the magician then you have to accept that to the magician it isn't going to feel magical because to them its a science... only the less knowledgeable audience will call it magic (which is why I recommend if you're making your own setting that wizards among themselves NOT call it magic in the setting, but something like The Art or The Craft or just Wizardry, because its not "magic" to them).

So as with many discussions it looks like the biggest problem is defining the thing that this discussion is about- there's so many different versions of what Magic really is that there can't even be an answer to questions about it until you state what setting and magic system we're talking about.


But, regarding the comments made above...

For real-world magic I think RPGPundit's own Lion & Dragon game has one of the best examples of a magic system based on real-world beliefs.

When it comes to magic just being secret knowledge with no science/magic divide... That's actually how magic works in Tolkein, and in The One Ring which is the most faithful adaption of his works to a TTRPG. While at the upper levels there are wondrous and clearly magical things, for most "Secret Lore" effects we'd find it hard to answer whether or not what's being done is actual magic or just an impressive display of mundane skill... And the people of the setting wouldn't see the distinction if asked.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 22, 2022, 11:40:17 AM
This might be relevant: https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/index.html

I particularly like this article on making game magic more closely emulate folklore magic: https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/antiscience.html

Thanks, BoxCrayonTales. I ponder now about updating it with more modern examples. I haven't used it in play yet, but I'd agree that Lion & Dragon is a great example of a magic system that gets to magic feel.

Quote from: Tantavalist on February 22, 2022, 05:33:25 PM
When it comes to magic just being secret knowledge with no science/magic divide... That's actually how magic works in Tolkein, and in The One Ring which is the most faithful adaption of his works to a TTRPG. While at the upper levels there are wondrous and clearly magical things, for most "Secret Lore" effects we'd find it hard to answer whether or not what's being done is actual magic or just an impressive display of mundane skill... And the people of the setting wouldn't see the distinction if asked.

Interesting - I haven't tried The One Ring yet. This is one of the points in my essay - which contrasts with the more typical RPG approach that everything works according to modern science unless there is distinct magic involved. And that magic must be clearly defined, such that if cancelled (by an anti-magic field or dispel or similar), then thing will continue to work as by science.

One easy way I've found to explain magic as a natural process is to use an elemental magic system that draws its power from the natural world, rather than the vague "magical energy" occasionally mentioned in D&D. Dragon Prince is an example.

Or adapt the concept of qi from Taoism, which is treated as a natural phenomenon inherent to everything that requires careful training and cultivation to use.

I'm not the biggest fan of fantasy fiction around. But based on fantasy books and films I have experienced, it seems to me the "reliability" of magic is dependent upon the role the magic-user plays in a story.

I most often see the magic-user cast as the mentor, wiseman, or seer. The magic is very reliable, and provides the tools the hero needs to complete the adventure. It might come in the form of information or magical protections. It's an adventure enabler. And the magic itself has limitations that make the hero necessary. The old wizard can't just set things right with the snap of his fingers.

Most rare of what I've seen is the hero-magician. Think Luke Skywalker. Here, what seems to be happening is the things a non-magical hero would do, the D&D fighter, are simply reskinned as magic, perhaps exaggerated in the process. Here the magic may be as reliable or as unreliable as any weapon or skill.

Another type I see is the magical-fool. Think Orko. This is probably the least reliable of magic, but it can also be highly useful as this is the perfect place to couch deus ex machina.


Where I think a lot of wires get crossed in RPGs is the PCs almost necessarily must fit the second type, but the first type probably has the most source material and inspiration to draw from. I think the desire for "wild" magic comes from, well, yeah, technically we also have this third type, too. And it's fun and entertaining. Magic should be that, too. Add to that the penchant for "modern" RPG design to rely in a single consistent system for running everything, and you have a great recipe for a trainwreck.


For me, 1E ends up working in the wash. PCs generally strongly favor those spells which are essentially weapons, as best fits heroes, and pass by a lot of the spells that might best fit a seer. The spell recovery time constraint for very high level characters presents players with interesting choices.

Say you've blown all your spell slots. You only have 12 hours to rest and rememorize. This means no less than 6 hours of sleep if you want to restore up to 4th level spells. With the remaining 6 hours, you can restore 24 spell levels worth. 4/3/2/2 is roughly where Magic-Users top out in potency. If you want to memorize a 7th level spell, that means 10 hours of sleep, which only allows time to rememorize 8 spell levels. That's the 7th level spell you wanted plus a single first level spell. Something like Mass Invisibility that allows the entire party to enter some area they wouldn't have otherwise been able to make it to. Plus Identify to sort out any magic-items found. Such a high level character now is taking on more of a wiseman role than a hero-magician role.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2022, 03:42:49 PM
For the magician, magic isn't magic, it's science.

I've been chewing on this sentence, and I think it's based on a confusion. In the old days science and magic were not contrasting terms. So for a medieval-authentic magician, magic is magic and an occult science. We think of science and magic as fundamentally opposed because science has taken on a connotation of disenchantment, and not just about magic. (See, for example, C.S. Lewis's The Abolition of Man.) The upshot of this is that science and magic not only involve different beliefs about what does and doesn't exist but very different ways of approaching phenomena.

All of which is a bit tangential to the discussion. Fantasy magic is actually Hollywood SFX dressed up in mystical-sounding non-explanations.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 23, 2022, 01:46:08 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 22, 2022, 03:42:49 PM
For the magician, magic isn't magic, it's science.

I've been chewing on this sentence, and I think it's based on a confusion. In the old days science and magic were not contrasting terms. So for a medieval-authentic magician, magic is magic and an occult science. We think of science and magic as fundamentally opposed because science has taken on a connotation of disenchantment, and not just about magic. (See, for example, C.S. Lewis's The Abolition of Man.) The upshot of this is that science and magic not only involve different beliefs about what does and doesn't exist but very different ways of approaching phenomena.

All of which is a bit tangential to the discussion. Fantasy magic is actually Hollywood SFX dressed up in mystical-sounding non-explanations.

I think you need to go a bit further. The alchemists were clearly proto-scientists, though it's hard to separate the science from the esoteric mysticism. But if you go back further, most magic in myths and legends goes back to natural history, then natural philosophy. A wonder-worker like Taleisin wasn't pulling mystic threads, or shaping some otherworldly force, but also wasn't engaged in the process of experimentation and refinement. Instead, it was more about deep observational and rote knowledge. That's where the "wise" comes from in wise women and wizards. Their skills or talents (not powers; that's the wrong lens) came from learning all they could about the world worked, from mentors and from their own observations and learning.

Since we're comparing things, a good analogy might be alchemy as depicted in the manga/anime Fullmetal Alchemist.

Doing simple stuff is easy. Doing more complex stuff is harder but because it's documented, it's doable. But once you start forging into uncharted waters, you'd best watch out.

I have a few general opinions on magic in RPGs:

• Wild and uncontrollable magic spells make sense given the lore in many universes, but these days is a critically over-used trope. If I encounter it in an RPG, it's almost always a hard "nope," not because it's inherently bad, but because the magic system is integral for a game's identity. Having a trite and overused explanation like "magic is uncontrollable," immediately tells me that if the game wasn't dated about 2010 or earlier, the big creative decisions were phoned in, likely in a big way.
• Uncontrolled magic is usually tied to a random table. I don't think random tables are inherently bad, but I do think they are messy game design, and they can certainly be slow.
• One of the key things I look for in a game which has a magic system is evidence the game designers understand Sanderson's Laws of Magic because this is how magic can influence storytelling without feeling cheap. Hard magic systems (like Sanderson writes and wrote his Laws of Magic for) feel much like sciences. Ultimately, I agree with the above discussions which distinguish between science and magic at the philosophical level, but one of the key things you can do in fiction is explore universes with different metaphysics. Most universes with made up religions or magic have fundamentally broken metaphysics, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing; it turns the story into an Escher painting which makes sense in a way which doesn't make sense. IMO, this paradox is what gives Star Wars so much creative potential; the Jedi and Sith are not fundamentally better because the Force is an inanimate spiritual bar magnet which can't distinguish between good and evil, so what you're seeing instead is the audience and author projecting their understanding of good and evil onto a fundamentally amoral universe.

How do I prefer magic? If you can't tell, I am a strong hard magic fan. Even if you don't explain something, there should be an explanation.

But then again, my tastes are also more in the Science Fiction direction than Fantasy. In my current homebrew system, "magic" is a series of alien psychic abilities which use dark energy to poke holes in space time to make energy flow. Dice are not involved; it's a technological ability which just happens to use brain cells rather than a visible tech gizmo.

Something else that affects the perception of magic and magicians in RPG vs. Literature is POV characters. In much of classic fantasy the Wizard was someone other than the main character, which meant that magic never had to be explained in detail. The POV character(s) see the Wizard do magic things and that's just them being a Wizard. One of the reasons A Wizard of Earthsea was so influential was that it was one of the first novels to successfully reverse this trend and show how magic worked from the point of view of someone who lived and breathed it.

With RPGs the magic is generally in the hands of players who have to understand the mechanics. More than that, unless you're playing a Storygame rather than traditional D&D then the magic needs to be codified into systems in the way that many feel robs it of the sense of mystery it has in fantasy literature. Add to this the fact that the magic system needs to be nerfed so that Wizard PCs won't overshadow non-spellcaster classes and that's why D&D Magic and the many RPGs it inspired don't feel as "Magical" as versions from novels.