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I'm currently running Old-School Essentials and now that the player characters have come upon some money, they started wondering if maybe they could spend it to buy some magic items. I quickly improvised a place that sold a whopping three potions and one medallion for ridiculously high prices, but it got me thinking if any of you have come upon a more methodical solution to this.

So... Do you allow your PCs to buy magic items? If you do, how do you price them? Do you have magic item supermarkets where everything can be found or are traders of magic items few and far between? Do you only allow certain magic items to be bought, such as potions or scrolls? And -- perhaps most importantly for me, since I'm lazy -- do you have any readymade tables for this on hand I could steal?

What I do is list for any organization the magic items that they could have for sale over a given time.  Usually, that's something like "1 minor healing potion per week" or "1 random minor item received in trade per month".  That is, not much.  Then the only way a person gets on their list of customers is to perform a service for said organization or something similar for someone else that the organization owes a favor.  

Mainly, this gets it down to a manageable number.  If you get in good with a group that has a little traffic in magic items, sooner or later you'll qualify to bid on what they've got available in the way of equipment.  That includes magic items, sometimes.  When a character approaches that point, then I'll make the exact magic items and schedule more concrete, whether with a table or something else.

For example, I have in my current campaign a consortium of civic, religious, and magical leaders in several city states that systematically make healing potions.  Each city has first dibs on the better potions, which they typically buy for their own forces and a reserve.  Others in the organization are next.  Then there is limited trade between city states during a crisis.  Only after all that can a character get in the loop, and only then if they've already performed sufficient services for the city, the local churches, etc.  It is, of course, a lot easier to end up with several such potions if the city hires you to do something important to them.  That's part of what the reserve is for.

Never.

Magic items are the subject of adventure in their own right. Ones that have been found/discovered/recovered (they tend to be from a bygone era) prior to the party's adventuring will always be highly valued and prized heirlooms. As such, they won't tend to be for sale.

Potions and the like aren't treated as magic items though. So if you need a potion or similar substance brewed, you may well be able to find someone capable of doing that for you.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1141789Never.

Magic items are the subject of adventure in their own right. Ones that have been found/discovered/recovered (they tend to be from a bygone era) prior to the party's adventuring will always be highly valued and prized heirlooms. As such, they won't tend to be for sale.

Potions and the like aren't treated as magic items though. So if you need a potion or similar substance brewed, you may well be able to find someone capable of doing that for you.

Likewise on both counts. Magic items never, ever, ever available for purchase. But potions-making is one of the few legal "magical-ish" practices in my not-medieval setting, so many of those can be openly bought and sold  (not all though).

Rich people today buy Van Goghs and relics were sold in the middle ages. So I'd expect magic items would be sold in most any fantasy setting. I'm not sure you'd really have 'magic shops', except for selling trinkets and charms(often fake). But estates fall on hard times and if your grandfather's wand of magic missiles has no use for you(since you're not a magic user), you'd probably sell it to pay off debts.

I'm not sure what that market would look like though. Maybe sort of like today's high end auction houses where you can buy modern 'relics', like Mark Hamill's light saber from the first Star Wars movies.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1141789Never.

Magic items are the subject of adventure in their own right. Ones that have been found/discovered/recovered (they tend to be from a bygone era) prior to the party's adventuring will always be highly valued and prized heirlooms. As such, they won't tend to be for sale.

Potions and the like aren't treated as magic items though. So if you need a potion or similar substance brewed, you may well be able to find someone capable of doing that for you.

Plus magic items need to be rare, or else you'll end with superheroes.

The 'magic shop' is one of my most hated D&D tropes.
There are places that sell some spell components, and agents who try to keep track of the last known locations of famous artifacts, and might share their info for a price.
Lots of hustlers claiming to have such things, but wise folks know it's just about always a con.
There might be occasional secret auctions of magic items. Invitation only.
Having such items and flashing them around in public will invite trouble from various individuals and organisations.

Option A - a player decides they'd like to have an item, locates a sage, gets leads on where items like that might be lost in old treasure hordes, and spends time at the table organically turning their character into what they'd like it to be

Option B - the DM runs a DLC shop for upgrades with the in-game currency.

Quote from: Zirunel;1141795Likewise on both counts. Magic items never, ever, ever available for purchase.

So, if I had an extra +1 sword, NOBODY would offer to buy it? Not even someone that was looking for a regular sword? I don't see how a game world could work like that.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1141817So, if I had an extra +1 sword, NOBODY would offer to buy it?

If this is the kind of problem you have in your games, you're already describing the kind of game I don't want to play.  GeekyBugle had the right of it when he said such items should be rare. I'd go so far as to say exceedingly so. I get different strokes and all, but I can't be part of a discussion where this is a core conceit.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1141818If this is the kind of problem you have in your games, you're already describing the kind of game I don't want to play.

Yeah, same here. Our weekly local game has become a bit like that and it has me thinking of finding another group or starting one. Magic has become far too common, reliable and safe... boring.

My system has a bit of nuance to it in that the line between magical and non-magical is blurry.

Item quality is a thing (ranked poor, good, fine and legendary) and the permanent magical properties that can be placed on items are similarly ranked (minor, lesser, moderate, greater, artifact).

A non-magical sword of legendary quality is pretty much superior to a good quality sword with a minor magical property placed upon it (it wouldn't be able to shed light, but it would be better balanced, sharper, more durable, etc.).

The basic setup is that you can scrounge poor quality goods anywhere, buy good quality items in most town, fine quality items and those with minor magical properties in cities, and there's one or two places on the continent where you can find each type of legendary quality item (i.e. there's probably one smith who produces legendary quality swords and one legendary armorer on the continent... and they're probably NOT in the same city).

Similarly, anything more potent than a minor magical property requires a ritual that may or may not even be available and also material components of creatures so dangerous that the only way those who could enchant such properties have to get them is to send out adventurers to gather them (the typical fee if such an enchanter can be found is to bring them sufficient components for TWO items of which the PCs get one).

So the PC's options for anything better than a minor property are to either quest for the components and someone with the ritual needed to enchant it or to quest for the item directly.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1141818If this is the kind of problem you have in your games, you're already describing the kind of game I don't want to play.  GeekyBugle had the right of it when he said such items should be rare. I'd go so far as to say exceedingly so. I get different strokes and all, but I can't be part of a discussion where this is a core conceit.

The OP was talking about D&D. In D&D, a +1 sword no longer has use once you find a +2 sword (or, at all if you are a magic-user or cleric).

And in D&D, a +1 sword has only limited value anyway. It is +1 damage (the same as being strong) and only affects the chance to-hit 5% of the time. Even if it was the only +1 sword in the world, it wouldn't rate being a highly valued and prized heirlooms, except for sentimental value only.

If you are running a game that's not D&D where each magic-item is of great power then there might be a case where magic items are rarely for sale, but those conditions don't apply here.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1141817So, if I had an extra +1 sword, NOBODY would offer to buy it? Not even someone that was looking for a regular sword? I don't see how a game world could work like that.

Kind of as Savage Schemer said above. I prefer magic to be rare. And because, in my setting, it is (very strictly)  religiously proscribed, magic is also clandestine.  Nobody wants to be seen to have anything to do with it. Which effectively makes it even rarer.

No judgement though, I'm just saying that's just how I happen to like it. D&D is what you make it. Plenty of other ways to play, and they can all be good.

This varies a lot for me by edition and how common I want to treat magic items at any given campaign. I also used to be a lot more permissible about magic items decades ago than I tend to be today, but I decided to tone them down because I found that access to too many powerful items unbalances the game. So I tend to be very careful about what sort of items I allow to exist in my campaigns in terms of what types of properties they possess. Permanent haste effects with extra attacks per round, for example, are off the table, but items with temporary spell effects that work on activation are more likely.

A +1 weapon for me is of little concern, however, and my general attitude about the sale of magic items is that what the public demands the market provides--always. Such it is in real life, so it is in fantasy. Unless magic is specifically illegal or persecuted in the world we're playing on, there will always be a market for magic because there will always be demand for it. And just like in real life, any laws against magic will guarantee that the demand for it takes the market underground.

My only issue is in terms of power and availability. I don't like magic items (particularly powerful ones, with spell-like effects) to be too common, and I prefer particularly powerful items to be rare. Potions and scrolls are more common, but even then they aren't exactly mass-produced, although most major settlements will have apothecary shops with potions in stock. Wand shops are also a possibility, but much less common. Other items might be sold in a case by case basis (usually only a handful of random mid to low powered items in stock), and particularly powerful mages may have access to more. But that usually depends on how generous I'm feeling and how common I'm willing to allow magic items to become in that campaign.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1141824The OP was talking about D&D. In D&D, a +1 sword no longer has use once you find a +2 sword (or, at all if you are a magic-user or cleric).

And in D&D, a +1 sword has only limited value anyway. It is +1 damage (the same as being strong) and only affects the chance to-hit 5% of the time. Even if it was the only +1 sword in the world, it wouldn't rate being a highly valued and prized heirlooms, except for sentimental value only.

If you are running a game that's not D&D where each magic-item is of great power then there might be a case where magic items are rarely for sale, but those conditions don't apply here.

Pretty much. A garbage tier magic item is still a garbage tier magic item no matter how rare magic supposedly is in your world. Declaring a plain +1 weapon a rare and prized commodity doesn't make magic items more special. It makes them forgettable and pathetic.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1141831Pretty much. A garbage tier magic item is still a garbage tier magic item no matter how rare magic supposedly is in your world. Declaring a plain +1 weapon a rare and prized commodity doesn't make magic items more special. It makes them forgettable and pathetic.

Well. I'll say it again. A setting where you can describe a "magic item" as "garbage tier" just doesn't happen to be where I care to be. Just my taste.

Quote from: Zirunel;1141832Well. I'll say it again. A setting where you can describe a "magic item" as "garbage tier" just doesn't happen to be where I care to be. Just my taste.

Right. Also, if you are going for rare magic items, and the best / only way to get them is through adventure, then the absolute last thing you should be doing is making a +1 damage item. It's as unimaginative as it is unsatisfying.

Quote from: Morblot;1141786So... Do you allow your PCs to buy magic items?

Yes

Quote from: Morblot;1141786If you do, how do you price them?

From several sources

1) How rare luxury goods that take a similar time to make are priced
2) Value found in AD&D 1e Dungeon Master Guide
3) The crafting time thus values of similar effects found in GURPS Magic. Plus the formula is broken down so you can alter the assumption and see what the cost would be. Because it is a reflection of how human behave it works with any system where the crafting time and the living standards of mages are known.
4) And several years of playtesting.

Luckily I released what I came up with in a easy to print booklet that happen to be made with Swords & Wizardry in mind which is a hop and skip from Old School Essentials. For magic items the two system are equivalent.

Magic Item Creation Cost (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Magic_Item_Creation_Rev_2.pdf)
Herbs and Potions (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Herbs%20and%20Potions%20Rev_02.pdf)
Finally my full price list in case you want to see how it stacks against other goods.
MW Price List (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MajesticWilderlandsPrice%20List.pdf)


 

Quote from: Morblot;1141786Do you have magic item supermarkets where everything can be found or are traders of magic items few and far between?

No, the sale of magic items is a luxury trade thus there are three tiers and a couple of things to know.

In the end it is a luxury trade, people just don't walk into a magic item shop unless they have the wealth. Having decent arms and armor counts having wealth. This is checked by either clerk (who happen to be low level mages) or guards at the shop. Pretty much the same as if you went to a silk trader, a spice shop, or a goldsmith/jeweller.

There are four tiers of magic items. Note this are relative values to other magic items not other trade good. Common, Uncommon, Rare, and Unique. Common items are the weaker potions, herb, and very low power magic items. They can be found on the street alongside various types of magical placebos that look flashy but don't do anything. Uncommon is what is what you find readily available in a shop. A +1 sword would be found in this category. The shop will rarely have racks of this stuff available. But they will have selection of uncommon although it varies from month to month. The Rares items are generally not for general sale but instead are sold at invite only auction held throughout the year.

Most of a shop's business is through commissions. The shop's proprietor has a web of contacts spread among different mages and can use them to have a magic item made to order. This is how most magic items are bought.

The frequency of magic shop is similar to that of any luxury goods. You are better off going off to a metropolis the setting equivalent of a Constantinople or Rome in its heyday. Or in the later Middle Ages, Paris, London, Venice, or Genoa.
 
I developed a set of random table based on the level of proprietor that allow me to generate the content of a shop every month. See the next post.

Quote from: Morblot;1141786Do you only allow certain magic items to be bought, such as potions or scrolls?

Only unique items can't be bought.

Quote from: Morblot;1141786And -- perhaps most importantly for me, since I'm lazy -- do you have any readymade tables for this on hand I could steal?

Yes see above. :-)

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1141834Right. Also, if you are going for rare magic items, and the best / only way to get them is through adventure, then the absolute last thing you should be doing is making a +1 damage item. It's as unimaginative as it is unsatisfying.

Hence, why such an item would be "garbage tier" and fretting about its existence or sale a waste of time. I would, however, include +1 items in the game simply on the basis that 1) you would presumably need to go through A (miserable +1 items) in order to get to B or C (stuff that's stronger than a +1 item) in the process of creating magic items (whether through magical skill or some spontaneous game world process), and 2) because some such +1 items may also sometimes have other benefits that make them better than a plain +1 item (elemental damage properties and/or spell effect).

Granted, some of this depends on how items work in the world or system. But at least going by traditional D&D conventions and assumptions, +1 items would not be entirely uncommon. And anything different would require specific in-world setting conceits to define exactly how magic items operate and originate in that world.

In pre-3e I avoid any routine item purchase by PCs. I'm more likely to have the local alchemist-apothecary gift some random potions in gratitude for having been rescued, or have Elrond give Bilbo a magic +1 sword. I'm running 1e AD&D and I have the DMG item sale value lists, certainly it was expected items would be sold, but I've not seen it attempted yet. Although if the players knew those scrolls of protection had a list value of thousands each...

Quote from: Zirunel;1141832Well. I'll say it again. A setting where you can describe a "magic item" as "garbage tier" just doesn't happen to be where I care to be. Just my taste.

"Garbage tier" in this case refers to the effect not worth being called magic.

+5% to hit and +1 damage isn't enough of a modifier to be meaningful. Other than the occasional shittily designed "must be this tall to fight this" monsters that can only be damaged by +1 weapons it's going to make a difference maybe one out of twenty attacks.

But there isn't a fighter in the world who'd take a +1 dagger over a mundane (or masterwork if 3e) longsword for anything other than those occasional gotcha monsters.

It's NOT a special item of great power... it's a curiosity you put on a shelf to gather dust and your grandkid who inherits it sells it to buy a new video game.

If you want magic to be special it doesn't just need to be rare... it needs to be powerful enough to make it worth seeking.

You can try to claim that the M-16 is special because they're rarer than AR-15's, but it doesn't make them so. A Barret M82A1 on the other hand? Now you're talking.

So for a campaign using this map

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8z22VFjQYR0/W2hmf-IImoI/AAAAAAAAQls/65vmGoAdm_gcRFTb4qNgXlZML2u7RGKZwCLcBGAs/s200/Region%252C%2BTrident%2BGulf.jpg)

Full Scale Image (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8z22VFjQYR0/W2hmf-IImoI/AAAAAAAAQls/65vmGoAdm_gcRFTb4qNgXlZML2u7RGKZwCLcBGAs/s1600/Region%252C%2BTrident%2BGulf.jpg)

Keep in mind the average laborer makes only around 25d (1d = 1 silver piece) per month. That a knight has around a 5,000d budget for the year to cover himself, his gear, his horse, his family, and everything that needs to be done on the manor. If he is lucky the knight will clear about 500d, to 1,000d per year. Just about every noble family has at least one magic item in their possession like a +1 sword or a Cloak of Protection +1.

So Viridistan is a metropolis and has a population of 200,000. It has the following magic users who make magic items for sale. The monetary values at the end is total value they typically have in stock each month. Basically 10% of their earned XP.

Apothecary - Whitefire* MU 30 25,000d/250,000d
Apothecary Hooktong Ash MU 6 3,600d
Astrologer Fiiya Red Star Xiiji Red Star Cleric 3/3 450d
Exotic Herbs and Spices Ronan Grey-eyed Ftr 3rd Elxirs Only 450d
Flower Shop Fothergill the Clever Mu 4th, 900d
Fazhur Pink's Flower Shop Fazhur Pink Cleric 18th, 111,000d
Herbalist Ferlace Cl 29, Red Oak, Shadbark Cl 12  300,000d
Hypnotist Isa Binadyc MU 5 1800d
Illusionist Blansom feather Skyvallery MU4  900d
Magic Orfellis Maltarn MU-7 CE  7,000d
Magic Thordansalf th Peace Maker Runecaster 4 900d
Magic Haefinstaff the Blue MU 14  65,000d
Magic Greytael the Wolf MU 10  23,000d
Magic Fothergill Urchin MU 7  7,000d
Magic Malethon the noble MU 8  11,000d
Magic Dalfindin MU 4   900d
Pawnshop Wafim Sana the Unpredictable 1,000d
Sage School of Ancient Vertitis Bransum Wen  200,000d
Spellbinder Talonmouth Talr MU -9 CE  16,000d
Witch Morkweb Green MU 9 Cats LE   16,000d
Witch Clawbone Hakkle MU LE 4  1,000d
Witch Aggleroot Wortstinger MU 6  4,000d

*Whitefire is a special case. He is the son of the last Viridian Emperor who is in hiding for various reason that I am not going to get into. However he is evil and has his own network that he culivates. Publically he disguises himself as the Alchemist Whitefire with about 25,000d worth of potions and elixirs for sale. Privately he maintains a stock of 250,000d magic item and it is the leading vendor of illicit magic items.

Same list but in order of value of stock

Potions and Elixirs
Herbalist Ferlace Cl 29, Red Oak, Shadbark Cl 12  300,000d
Fazhur Pink's Flower Shop Fazhur Pink Cleric 18th, 111,000d
Apothecary - Whitefire* MU 30 25,000d, 250,000d
Apothecary Hooktong Ash MU 6 3,600d
Flower Shop Fothergill the Clever Mu 4th, 900d
Astrologer Fiiya Red Star Xiiji Red Star Cleric 3/3 450d
Exotic Herbs and Spices Ronan Grey-eyed Ftr 3rd Elxirs Only 450d

Full range of Magic Items
Sage School of Ancient Vertitis Bransum Wen  200,000d
Magic Haefinstaff the Blue MU 14  65,000d
Magic Greytael the Wolf MU 10  23,000d
Spellbinder Talonmouth Talr MU -9 CE  16,000d
Magic Malethon the noble MU 8  11,000d
Magic Fothergill Urchin MU 7  7,000d
Magic Orfellis Maltarn MU-7 CE  7,000d
Hypnotist Isa Binadyc MU 5 1,800d
Pawnshop Wafim Sana the Unpredictable 1,000d
Illusionist Blansom feather Skyvallery MU4  900d
Magic Thordansalf th Peace Maker Runecaster 4 900d
Magic Dalfindin MU 4   900d

Underground
Like Whitefire these three deal with the underground magic trade.
Witch Morkweb Green MU 9 Cats LE   16,000d
Witch Clawbone Hakkle MU LE 4  1,000d
Witch Aggleroot Wortstinger MU 6  4,000d

Typical Shop Inventory
All prices are doubled for sale. My generator calculates the creation costs. I double it for sale.

Sage School of Ancient Verities
+2 One Handed Spear (2,008d)
Beaker of 2x Healing Potion (8,000d)
Manual of Influence (10,000d)
Ring of Spell Storing (2nd x1) (4,000d)
+1 Composite Bow (1,225d)
+1 Staff Sling (1,005d)
Portable Hole (10,000d)
+2 Light Club (2,000d)
+1 Small Mace with Light 15' Radius (709d)
Beaker of 2x Healing Potion (8,000d)
Cloak of Protection +1 (2,000d)
Chime of Opening (6,000d)
+2 Mace (2,013d)
Ring of Fire Resistance (2,000d)
Decanter of Endless Water (2,000d)
Portable Hole (10,000d)
Beaker of 1x Heroism Potion (6,000d)
+2 One Handed Spear (2008d)
Wand of Charm Person (2 charges) (1,000d)
Wand of Paralyzing (4,000d)
+1 Cuirboulli Armor (1,050d)
Cloak of Elvenkind (2,000d)
Cloak of Displacement (6,000d)
+1 Broadsword with Cure Wounds (1,750d)
Bracers of Defense AC 6(13) (3,000d)
+3 Medium Shield (5,060d)
+2 Light Crossbow (3,030d)
+3 Small Shield (5,042d)
Runestone of Controlling Earth Elementals (8,000d)
Cloak of Elvenkind (2,000d)
+2 Broadsword (2,150d)
Bag of Devouring (1,000d)
Staff of Absorption (16,000d)
5 Bullets with +3 damage only (1,500d)
+3 Mace (6,013d)
Beaker of 2x Ethereality Potion (20,000d)
Scroll of Exorcise (1,200d)
Charm of Magic Missile (400d)
Scroll of Protect from Missiles (600d)
Scroll of Fly (600d)
Charm of Protection from Magic (4,000d)
Scroll of Speak with Animals (400d)
Charm of Web (800d)
Scroll of Restoration (1,400d)
Scroll of Clone (1,600d)
Scroll of Continual Light (600d)
Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds (800d)
Scroll of Prismatic Sphere (1,800d)
Charm of Ice Storm (1,600d)
Scroll of Final Death (1,400d)
Scroll of Prayer (600d)
Charm of Entangle (800d)
Scroll of Darkness, 15' Radius (400d)
Scroll of Power Word, Blind (1,600d)
Potion of Giant Strength (1,500d)
Potion of Invulnerability (700d)
Potion of Slipperiness (700d)
Potion of Treasure Finding (1,200d)
Potion of Flying (1,000d)
Potion of Flying (1,000d)
Potion of Slipperiness (700d)
Potion of Ethereality (1,000d)
Potion of Ethereality (1,000d)
Potion of Treasure Finding (1,200d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Growth (500d)
Potion of Treasure Finding (1,200d)
Potion of Flying (1,000d)
Potion of Extra Healing (1,200d)
Potion of Invulnerability (700d)
Potion of Flying (1,000d)
Potion of Giant Strength (1,500d)
Potion of Ethereality (1,000d)
Potion of Extra Healing (1,200d)
Potion of Treasure Finding (1,200d)
Potion of Slipperiness (700d)
Potion of Giant Strength (1,500d)
Potion of Giant Strength (1,500d)
Potion of Flying (1,000d)
Potion of Extra Healing (1,200d)
Potion of Ethereality (1,000d)

Magic Malethon the noble
A medium range shop. As you can see once you start getting away from the exceptional like the School of Ancient Verities it drops off considerably.
Girdle of Giant Strength (4,000d)
Scroll of Sleep (200d)
Charm of Haste (1,200d)
Charm of Detect Magic (400d)
Potion of Flying (1,000d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Levitation (500d)
Potion of Plant Control (500d)

Hypnotist Isa Binadyc
A small shop inventory. If you are wondering why the total exceeds 1,800d it because there is a chance that a roll on the common magic item table will result in a uncommon magic item appear, and that has a small chance of a rare magic item appear. This what happened with the Cloak of Elvenkind.

Cloak of Elvenkind (2,000d)
+1 Small Shield (542d)
Scroll of Purify Food and Drink (200d)
Scroll of Charm Person (200d)
Potion of Animal Control (500d)
Potion of Climbing (500d)
Potion of Heroism (600d)

Quote from: S'mon;1141843In pre-3e I avoid any routine item purchase by PCs.

I been allowing magic items purchases ever since I stared using the City State of the Invincible Overlord in 1981 via the Sorceror's Supply House on Regal Street.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1141824The OP was talking about D&D. In D&D, a +1 sword no longer has use once you find a +2 sword (or, at all if you are a magic-user or cleric).

Just because D&D lists such things does it require their use in a game?
Do we need to include ALL the creatures from the monster manuals?
Just because a GM never hands out crap like a +1 magic sword, does that that mean they've moved away from running real D&D?

There's large swathes of monsters that PCs can't hit without a magic weapon.  They may not think that sword is garbage tier when it's all that hurts the wight.

Grounding the sale of not-sale of magic items in whether its internally inconsistent with imaginary economy is to place the thought exercise above the play.  Selling magic items is to decide to not play, or at least "not play all".  That's boring.  I don't care if it's logical; we're not here to have a thought exercise, we're here to have fun around a dining room table.  Buying a DLC is never as fun as playing the game (or at least, I'd hope it wasn't).

Quote from: estar;1141840Finally my full price list in case you want to see how it stacks against other goods.
MW Price List (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MajesticWilderlandsPrice%20List.pdf)

Hey a live goat is cheaper than a courtesan!  :-P

But seriously, very nice work!

If I was playing a game of DnD then I would expect there to be plenty of magical items around.

Pathfinder has got plenty of rules for determining the cost.

Quote from: EOTB;1141856Grounding the sale of not-sale of magic items in whether its internally inconsistent with imaginary economy is to place the thought exercise above the play.

For some of us the thought exercise is part of the play, part of the fun. As a Player I like the setting to make some sort of intuitive sense, not be constant wish fulfillment and whimsy.

Quote from: EOTB;1141856There's large swathes of monsters that PCs can't hit without a magic weapon.  They may not think that sword is garbage tier when it's all that hurts the wight.

If there are large swathes of monsters that can not be hit without a magic weapon then either there are going to be plenty of magical weapons or there are going to be lots of dead people killed by said monsters.

Quote from: Simlasa;1141854Just because D&D lists such things does it require their use in a game?
Do we need to include ALL the creatures from the monster manuals?
Just because a GM never hands out crap like a +1 magic sword, does that that mean they've moved away from running real D&D?

Whining about it and bitching at people in online forums for having the audacity to bring up facts isn't going to remove the number 1 from existence. And +1 weapons exist because the number 1 exists and D&D uses sequential modifiers to rate magic weapons. Even if you want to skip a number (because...reasons) that still doesn't tell me what in your infinite wisdom a magic weapon's properties are supposed to be or WTF am I supposed to do with an older magic weapon once I find a better one. All that tells me is that you like to bitch at people for bringing up facts you don't like and that I'm not supposed to sell magic items I don't need (or establish an in-game economy that includes the sale of magic items) because someone online might bitch about it for completely arbitrary reasons they refuse to elaborate on.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1141861Whining about it and bitching at people in online forums for having the audacity to bring up facts isn't going to remove the number 1 from existence. And +1 weapons exist because the number 1 exists and D&D uses sequential modifiers to rate magic weapons. Even if you want to skip a number (because...reasons) that still doesn't tell me what in your infinite wisdom a magic weapon's properties are supposed to be or WTF am I supposed to do with an older magic weapon once I find a better one. All that tells me is that you like to bitch at people for bringing up facts you don't like and that I'm not supposed to sell magic items I don't need (or establish an in-game economy that includes the sale of magic items) because someone online might bitch about it for completely arbitrary reasons they refuse to elaborate on.

I remember when my friends and I went through the stage of making magical swords more magical by not telling the player what the "plus" was.

That resulted in fights where the Player would say "I hit AC 5 plus what ever the magic sword bonus is" and  "I do 6 points damage plus what ever the magic sword bonus is".

It is amazing how fast the wonder of a magical sword with an unknown bonus fades when it comes into conflict with the mechanical parts of the game.

Quote from: EOTB;1141856Selling magic items is to decide to not play, or at least "not play all".  That's boring.

No more boring than being able to build a castle or retain an army. Any of those can be boring or it can be a fleshed out part of the setting full of possibilities.

Quote from: Shasarak;1141862I remember when my friends and I went through the stage of making magical swords more magical by not telling the player what the "plus" was.

That resulted in fights where the Player would say "I hit AC 5 plus what ever the magic sword bonus is" and  "I do 6 points damage plus what ever the magic sword bonus is".

It is amazing how fast the wonder of a magical sword with an unknown bonus fades when it comes into conflict with the mechanical parts of the game.

Yeah, even when it's only temporary, till the party manages to get the weapon identified, keeping track of unknown magical "pluses" becomes tedious and annoying. And at the end of the day not knowing what your "plus" is doesn't make that whooping +1 bonus any more meaningful or magical. It's just an additional layer of annoyance.

I'm at the point where I don't even care if players know their enemies AC. It's not like you can't guesstimate how difficult an opponent standing right in front of you, bashing you with a hammer, is to hit. You're flailing your sword at it, you can see how quick it moves or how much armor it has. Meanwhile, if they know they need 15+ to hit you can see the excitement at the table the moment that 15+ comes up, rather than wait for the DM to pretend to make some extra calculations at the back end before getting the combat rolling.

Asking a rhetorical question doesn't remotely equate to whining and bitching.

The point is that some of us play D&D in a way that rejects some of the assumptions many of you are making about the game. When I answered upthread about having "an extra +1 sword to sell" not being the kind of game I want to play in, I was reinforcing the statement that I don't play in games where +1 swords are so common you'd expect to find more than one the entire length of the game; that such items are *that rare*. Some games might be played without any "magical weapons" in them ever making any kind of appearance. Likewise the monsters that require them to be hit (fun little aside: I've literally never run a single monster from the Monster Manual as written - a fact I'm betting would make some of you foam at the mouth). When I have used monsters like that in games before, usually the party must retrieve one specific magical item in order to have any hope of beating the creature. Having any old "junk" magic item simply will not do. When said monster is dispatched, the magical item is likely nothing special anymore beyond being a curio - its magic having been spent or rendered dormant.

Going back to the premise of the thread, I have no problem with people selling such items. The idea that there are organizations our there who might collect such curios is perfectly valid. It's that the idea of wandering into Swords-R-Us and selling such a thing to Mr Rando Shopkeeper is a patently absurd idea for such a setting. And items like this in some NPC's private collection stand a better chance of being stolen than sold to the players (assuming it's not sitting in Joe Farmers attic, long since forgotten).

If I played in settings like Eberron or whatever, I'd be nodding my head in agreement with all the high fantasy assumptions in this thread. It's just that I don't tend to play in Eberron-like settings.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1141866It's that the idea of wandering into Swords-R-Us and selling such a thing to Mr Rando Shopkeeper is a patently absurd idea for such a setting. And items like this in some NPC's private collection stand a better chance of being stolen than sold to the players (assuming it's not sitting in Joe Farmers attic, long since forgotten).

Which is why I mentioned the various historical trade in luxuries. None of them involved going into Swords-R-Us and meeting Mr Rando Shopkeeper. The details of how this was handled in the Middle Ages provides a lot of opportunities for fun adventures.

However if magic items are that special none of that applies. I will say having worked extensively with the OD&D and AD&D treasure types. The default has magic items just common enough that not having some luxury trade is implausible.  Of course you can do what Matt Finch did with Swords & Wizardry and tweak the treasure types so that they are indeed special and rare.

Finally as a side note, this is one of the issue that was an issue of contention from day one. It was not helped by the actual rules themselves or the published modules from TSR. Use any published module 'as is' is to hand the PCs imaginable wealth and power by the standards of the magic items are special and rare crowd. The Treasure Types both OD&D and AD&D use work against this as is. Then at the other extreme you had the Judges Guild side where NPCs have level and there are magic items shop in City State of the Invincible Overlord, and the City State of the World Emperor. A whole page of the Ready Ref sheet is devoted to how make magic items.

So the only right answer is the one that is right for how you view your setting.

But if you decide to allow trade in magic items then I suggest looking at how silk, spices, porcelain, jewelry, teak, and other similar rare goods were handled in medieval Europe.

Quote from: Shasarak;1141860If there are large swathes of monsters that can not be hit without a magic weapon then either there are going to be plenty of magical weapons or there are going to be lots of dead people killed by said monsters.

Which is why I previously referred to them as shittily designed monsters. It's one thing where it's a puzzle monster where you have to figure out its weakness (and that weakness is something relatively common, but not always obvious... ex. wights and fire in Game of Thrones), but most of the magic weapon only monsters are just "you must be this tall to ride this ride" monsters.

If the PCs lack the prerequisite weapons (which the GM controls access to) then they're unstoppable. If they have the required item then the monsters aren't all that special (ex. Wights are 4HD if I recall)... it's the Ur-example of an MMO gear check for a raid.

If magic weapons are as rare as some make them out to be (where they cannot be bought at any price) then a single Wight is a kingdom killer... they're immune to non-magical weapons, inflict level drain and turn anyone they kill into more wights that also are immune, drain levels and make more wights.

If there aren't enough magic weapons that each lord can afford at least a few you either need no wights in your world or your world is a zombie apocalypse with nearly unkillable undead dominating all but the few places fortunate enough to have some magic that can hold them at bay.

No.  In none of my D&D campaigns has magic ever been so common that magic items could be found for sale.  Nor was there a reason to try selling one. Magic items only "work" if the item feels that it has been "earned" through daring or heroism.  That is part of all my settings and dates back to a Dragon magazine article about sentient magic swords and their egos.

Quote from: EOTB;1141856There's large swathes of monsters that PCs can't hit without a magic weapon.  They may not think that sword is garbage tier when it's all that hurts the wight.

Grounding the sale of not-sale of magic items in whether its internally inconsistent with imaginary economy is to place the thought exercise above the play.  Selling magic items is to decide to not play, or at least "not play all".  That's boring.  I don't care if it's logical; we're not here to have a thought exercise, we're here to have fun around a dining room table.  Buying a DLC is never as fun as playing the game (or at least, I'd hope it wasn't).

IF in your world (not in the DMG) there are "large swathes of monsters that PCs can't hit without a magic weapon" then it follow that either magic weapons are so common as to render any and all adventurers useless or that only the monsters remain.

This is kinda like the traveling discussion a while back, how common are those monsters? because if confronting a wight is really common then I would expect to find magic weapons in almost every household. Or mankind was erased from the world.

Quote from: Chris24601;1141874Which is why I previously referred to them as shittily designed monsters. It's one thing where it's a puzzle monster where you have to figure out its weakness (and that weakness is something relatively common, but not always obvious... ex. wights and fire in Game of Thrones), but most of the magic weapon only monsters are just "you must be this tall to ride this ride" monsters.

If the PCs lack the prerequisite weapons (which the GM controls access to) then they're unstoppable. If they have the required item then the monsters aren't all that special (ex. Wights are 4HD if I recall)... it's the Ur-example of an MMO gear check for a raid.

If magic weapons are as rare as some make them out to be (where they cannot be bought at any price) then a single Wight is a kingdom killer... they're immune to non-magical weapons, inflict level drain and turn anyone they kill into more wights that also are immune, drain levels and make more wights.

If there aren't enough magic weapons that each lord can afford at least a few you either need no wights in your world or your world is a zombie apocalypse with nearly unkillable undead dominating all but the few places fortunate enough to have some magic that can hold them at bay.

Pretty much. I tend to avoid creatures immune to non-magical weapons, grant them some other benefit in place of weapon immunity or treat it as some degree of damage resistance instead of outright immunity, precisely because I consider it to be a lame mechanic that's boring and would guarantee the end of civilization if you follow it to its logical conclusion. But I'm assured that I run monsters from the Monsters Manuals as written. Someone should tell my goblins that they don't have class levels or are more than 1 HD monsters.

I also don't get what making +1 weapons specifically rare is supposed to accomplish if you still expect magic weapons to be more powerful than +1. Or how the existence of +1 weapons is proof that magic is too common, when they're the crappiest magic weapons in the game. Or even why magic items need to be exceedingly rare in the first place, assuming that magic users exist in the campaign. I rarely hand out magic items willy-nilly, but I also tend to assume that if spell casters exist in the world then magic items probably exist as well, unless there is a setting specific reason to keep them limited (which I already specified in my first post I take into account, but apparently that's not enough).

If folks are interested I appended a text file with 5 results for each of the OD&D treasure results.

Here is a listing of what monster has what treasure type.

Looking at the Original D&D treasure we see the following

B,C,D, E, & F are in order of increasing value. Although D&E are roughly equivalent, D has less potential value but greater odds, while E has greater potential odds but lesser odds.

A, G, H, I are all all special treasure basically assigned to only one monster each.

A: Men & Centaur and is divided into Land, Desert, Water subcategories.
B:Skeletons, Zombies, Wights, Hydras, Nixies
C: Ogres (+1,000 GP), Gargoyles, Lycantropes, Minotaurs, Pixies, Gnomes
D:Orcs, Hobgoblins, Gnolls, Mummies, Cockatrices, Manticoras, Purple Worms, Dryads
E:Giants (+5,000 GP), Wraiths, Spectres, Gorgons, Wyverns, Elves, Griffons
F:Vampires, Basiliks, Medusae, Chimera
G:Dwarves
H:Dragons
I:Rocs

Sample treasures
[ATTACH]4714[/ATTACH]

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1141824The OP was talking about D&D. In D&D, a +1 sword no longer has use once you find a +2 sword (or, at all if you are a magic-user or cleric).

And in D&D, a +1 sword has only limited value anyway. It is +1 damage (the same as being strong) and only affects the chance to-hit 5% of the time. Even if it was the only +1 sword in the world, it wouldn't rate being a highly valued and prized heirlooms, except for sentimental value only.

If you are running a game that's not D&D where each magic-item is of great power then there might be a case where magic items are rarely for sale, but those conditions don't apply here.

The above is part of the reason that I do what I do with factions and favors:  If there is a any substantial amount of magic items in the setting, then it seems to me that there will be limited trade in it.  However, as others have said, I don't find that trade all that interesting compared to the alternatives.  So I set it up so that there is, in fact, trade, but engaging in that trade is either something that requires different kinds of questing and other typical play or something that is more difficult than just going on the quest to get the items the old-fashioned D&D way.  

Every now and then, the players have a huge need for something in particular and trade might be viable--especially if they've got some other item they are willing to give up. But the vast majority of the time, they are better off adventuring.  

Though I also tend to hand out items with minor curses on them--bad enough to be felt, but not so bad that the players is willing to give up the item and it's mostly useful qualities in order to escape the curse.  The items with the most curses on them are, you guessed it:  Really powerful items and the less powerful ones that are on the market.

A lot really does depend on your setting;

In low-magic settings where the number of wizards and spellcasting clerics might be 1-in-a-million then "rare as hen's teeth" makes sense... but critters immune to non-magical weapons will be similarly rare (or otherwise have some limit that keeps their population from completely overwhelming everything... the Ringwraiths were all-but unkillable, but also only existed due to the power in their rings and, as Sauron's generals, were too important to just send out for any but the most important matters... like recovering The Ring).

On the other hand, a high-fantasy settling where dragons, giants, werewolves and pixies are available as PCs and Arcanists (non-combat spellcasters) are 1-in-200 in the population (so a large city of 15,000 probably has an entire guild with 70-80 members and even a small village of 300 people probably has an arcanist's shop) then at least some level of magic (ex. weapons that shed light and can harm wights) being obtainable via ordinary commerce would similarly be plausible.

My ballpark is that basic magical weapons are in the price range of what a new car is for us... i.e. in the ballpark of the annual salary of the middle-class. Even today there are precious few people who can afford to just buy a new car outright, but the upper 1% can and large companies and governments often provide company cars to employees of sufficiently high importance (or which need them to do their jobs).

Similarly major magic items are varying degrees of aircraft and military vehicles. Sure, if you have the resources you can buy a Lear Jet (or major item), but it's NOT something you just stop in and pick up at Walmart... it's something where you have to contact the manufacturer or a specialized dealer and there's probably either a wait-list or some sort of auction process you'll need to go through to obtain it.

In terms of acquisition by PCs, my default placement is about one major item over the course of a level (EDIT for clarity: one per level for the entire party, not per PC). Sometimes I'll do caches of several items at once (ex. Pull a Hobbit where the group finds a whole cache of elven magic weapons), but then nothing else for several levels (i.e. the only other magic item found in the "Hobbit campaign" was The Ring... which in the story itself was only another major item... it didn't get retconned into a major artifact until Lord of the Rings).

And I'm definitely going to side with those up thread who pointed out how you could turn that into an adventure or even a campaign... i.e. you're going into all those dungeons specifically to recover long lost magic items for one of those specialized dealers who resells the finds to kings and princes (noble and merchant). You could even have fun with competing dealers... say a wealthy buyer is seeking a rare item and two rival dealers each set their retrieval specialists to the task, making it not just a quest... but a race to get it first.

Quote from: Chris24601;1141884A lot really does depend on your setting;

In low-magic settings where the number of wizards and spellcasting clerics might be 1-in-a-million then "rare as hen's teeth" makes sense... but critters immune to non-magical weapons will be similarly rare (or otherwise have some limit that keeps their population from completely overwhelming everything... the Ringwraiths were all-but unkillable, but also only existed due to the power in their rings and, as Sauron's generals, were too important to just send out for any but the most important matters... like recovering The Ring).

Its funny.  I read stories like the Hobbit and I see a character that gets a shit ton of magical items (including an artifact and a named magical sword!) over the course of one adventure.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1141866Asking a rhetorical question doesn't remotely equate to whining and bitching.

Thank you!

Quote from: estar;1141869Which is why I mentioned the various historical trade in luxuries. None of them involved going into Swords-R-Us and meeting Mr Rando Shopkeeper. The details of how this was handled in the Middle Ages provides a lot of opportunities for fun adventures.

Agreed. I've read a few books now on the history of the relics craze in Europe. Lots of wild stuff to draw off of. The stuff was often gifted around in a network of prestige and authority.

Another influence of mine, for how I've handled magic items, is the old Syfy show 'The Lost Room'. All about a detective who stumbles onto a set of seemingly ordinary objects with surprising powers... and the underground network of hoodlums and religious nuts that has grown up around them.

In my OD&D, magic shoppes exist in cities where you can find alchemists who make potions and mages who scribe scrolls. They charge top dollar because they can, and everything is custom order. There are always nobles looking for magic items to increase their power and they will pay heftily in coin. Among their own, they may even trade magic items.

As for creating magic items, there are some high level mages would might take on the task, but making an item permanent reduces their CON by 1 so you can bet you're going to pay dearly for that. In trade for your newly minted magic, you can bet you'll be questing for a litany of items that mage desires.

I don't mind magic shoppes for potions and scrolls since those are commonly found, thus somebody must be making them regularly. Also, handing out disposable magic is fun and lessens the desire to hand out more powerful items.  

BTW, in my OD&D, items will become imbued with magic on their own sometimes. AKA, the sword that slays a magical beast could take on that monster's essence and become a +1 weapon. The shield of a great hero could pass on generations, becoming magical as well. Thus, not all magic items must be created by mages.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1141894BTW, in my OD&D, items will become imbued with magic on their own sometimes. AKA, the sword that slays a magical beast could take on that monster's essence and become a +1 weapon. The shield of a great hero could pass on generations, becoming magical as well. Thus, not all magic items must be created by mages.

Shades of Earthdawn in that. It's very cool how that game handles its magic items... a lot of magic items are formed from experiences, and require knowledge of those experiences to fully use them.

In OD&D, a +1 magic sword is no joke - especially if they give off light (aka, a perma torch), and that +1 damage means more when you have monsters with D6 HP per HD. Also, with lower ACs, that 5% boost to hit shows itself more often. Top that with low STR bonuses (+3 at 18 if using B/X scores, +1 at 15+ if using S&W:WB scores), that +1 becomes even more appealing.

It might not become PC's weapon forever, but it will be cherished for several levels. And once they get their +2 sword, that +1 weapon will be a tremendous bartering tool. Want to make an angry lord your friend? Gift him a blade that can harm what normal steel cannot.

Quote from: Simlasa;1141910Shades of Earthdawn in that.

Earthdawn had lots of great ideas. I didn't enjoy the system, but I'd play it just for their cool take on magic and magic items.

Quote from: estar;1141853I been allowing magic items purchases ever since I stared using the City State of the Invincible Overlord in 1981 via the Sorceror's Supply House on Regal Street.

I'd let PCs go to a magic vendor emporium if such exists (there is one in Quodeth in Primeval Thule, Xandor Jho's House of Curiousities), but it's played out in-game with a small number of items available at best. Purchasing an item is a major event that can have ramifications in the future, eg a PC buying a dwarf-craft steel sword led to an alliance between Quodeth & the dwarf city of Kal-Zinan.

In my high magic 5e games I just give players a list of ca 20 minor items they can buy, but in lower magic settings or seeking better stuff it gets played out in-game.

Quote from: Chris24601;1141874If magic weapons are as rare as some make them out to be (where they cannot be bought at any price) then a single Wight is a kingdom killer... they're immune to non-magical weapons, inflict level drain and turn anyone they kill into more wights that also are immune, drain levels and make more wights.

If there aren't enough magic weapons that each lord can afford at least a few you either need no wights in your world or your world is a zombie apocalypse with nearly unkillable undead dominating all but the few places fortunate enough to have some magic that can hold them at bay.

Or the Cleric uses Turn Undead. :p

Most undead are presented as being tied to a particular spot, and vulnerable to daylight, so you have to go in the wight barrow mounds to find wights. Of course the barrow mounds likely have interred magic weapons there too.

In my 1e/OSRIC FR campaign there is no routine trade in magic weapons, but that doesn't mean no one has one. Eg in my stat blocks for Damaran House Knights, a Duke's house knights will typically have several magic weapons among the senior knights, usually heirlooms.  No one routinely manufactures +1 swords, but over thousands of years of history a bunch have accumulated.

 Knight of Damara (House Cavalry):
Fighter-1 AC 2/3 (plate, shield) HP 10; Base THAC0 20. Heavy Barded Warhorse (battle) or Medium Unbarded Warhorse (patrol)
weapons: Lance (mounted only, 2d4+1/3d6), Longsword (d8/d12)
WP: (1) Lance (spec) #ATT 3/2 THAC0 19 dam 2d4+3/3d6+2; THAC0 17 & x2 damage during a Cavalry Charge.
(2) Longsword (spec) #ATT 3/2 THAC0 19 dam 1d8+2/1d12+2.

Knight Lieutenant: Fighter-3 AC 2/3 HP 22; Base THAC0 18
WP: (1) Lance (spec) #ATT 3/2 THAC0 17, THAC0 15 during Charge, dam 2d4+3/3d6+2; x2 during Cavalry Charge
(2) Longsword (x2 spec) #ATT 3/2 THAC0 15 dam 1d8+3/1d12+3
MI: 15% +1 longsword, 15% +1 shield

Knight Commander: Fighter-5 AC 2/3 HP 34; Base THAC0 16
WP: (1) Lance (x2 spec) #ATT 3/2 THAC0 13 dam 2d4+4/3d6+3; x2 during Cavalry Charge
(2) Longsword (x2 spec) #ATT 3/2 THAC0 13 dam 1d8+3/1d12+3
MI: 25% +1 longsword, 25% +1 shield; 15% 1 of (d6) (1-2) +2 longsword, (3-4) +2 shield, or  (5-6) +1 lance - probably the Lance That Pierced Ilmater's Side on the Cross... or so they say.

Battle Chaplain: Cleric-2 AC 2/3 HP 12 base THAC0 20 WIS 14. Unbarded Medium Warhorse.
THAC0 20 WP: Mace dam 1d6+1/1d6
Typical Spells: Cure Light Wounds x2, Light of Ilmater (Light), Command ("Kneel").
MI: 10% +1 mace, 10% +1 shield

Arcata's Ducal Guard

Knights (56+49 squires = 105):
1 Knight Commander  Ftr 5 (Commander Mykros)
6 Knights Lieutenant 5 Ftr 3; 1 Ftr 4 (Sir Palador)
7 Battle Chaplains 1 Clr 1; 5 Clr 2 (Aedina); 1 Clr 3
42 Knights 35 Ftr-1 (Renee, Susan); 7 Ftr 2
49 Squires 41 Ftr 0; 8 Ftr 1

Knight Lieutenant Palador deVries: Fighter-4 AC 2/3 HP 28; Base THAC0 17
WP: (1) Lance (x2 spec) #ATT 3/2 THAC0 14 dam 2d4+4/3d6+3; x2 during Cavalry Charge
(2) +1 Longsword (x2 spec) #ATT 3/2 THAC0 13 dam 1d8+4/1d12+4
ST 15 IN 11 WI 13 CO 13 DE 14 CH 12

PCs might kill Sir Palador and take his magic +1 sword, but attempting to sell it would be an adventure in itself. +1 swords don't show up on the open market; they may be bought by merchants and then sold, typically to Dukes and other wealthy, established persons. If a PC became a Duke and wanted to buy magic items, then yes they might sometimes have the opportunity to buy the kind of low-end stuff adventurers haul out of dungeons.  But I'd deal with that using a random events table, not Magic Walmart.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1141911It might not become PC's weapon forever, but it will be cherished for several levels. And once they get their +2 sword, that +1 weapon will be a tremendous bartering tool.

In old-school D&D (like the FR game I'm running currently) PCs don't just go around in a group of 4 PCs, there are typically half a dozen NPC henchmen & such along too. Giving your henchman a magic sword is a great way to keep his loyalty! Plus it improves your own survival prospects.

Quote from: Morblot;1141786I'm currently running Old-School Essentials and now that the player characters have come upon some money, they started wondering if maybe they could spend it to buy some magic items. I quickly improvised a place that sold a whopping three potions and one medallion for ridiculously high prices, but it got me thinking if any of you have come upon a more methodical solution to this.

So... Do you allow your PCs to buy magic items? If you do, how do you price them? Do you have magic item supermarkets where everything can be found or are traders of magic items few and far between? Do you only allow certain magic items to be bought, such as potions or scrolls? And -- perhaps most importantly for me, since I'm lazy -- do you have any readymade tables for this on hand I could steal?

I didn't read all the responses to your post, so my apologies for any repetitive answers!

Make a quest out of it!  It could be a mini-campaign in itself.  Magic items aren't sold in my campaign, other than the a few potions and scrolls here or there (and even sometimes there's a half-day wait on them while they get made) or a wand with a few charges left, it the party's lucky.  

But I have had a party seek out a creator of magic items place a request.  The, in turn, would get a "shopping list" of sorts that would provide them with a list of materials that they would need to construct the item in question.  Maybe it's a rare material here, a costly consumable or item there, or maybe a spell that the maker doesn't have that is needed for the enchantment that the party has to petition someone (maybe even a dragon or a rashasta!) for a copy.  The complexity and difficulty could vary depending on the power of the item.  I've had pretty good success on doing this in the past.

I usually go with the idea that demand >>> supply.  It's easy to find a buyer for your loot, but there's a tremendous amount of competition to buy magic.  Not only are PCs likely to get outbid by nobles and rich merchants, most people with magic items will sell to their friends and acquaintances (i.e. not PCs) and there may even be laws against selling magic to anyone but nobles. In most of my games, about the only reliable way to buy a magic item is to find a wizard who is willing to make it for you and commission  it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1141876IF in your world (not in the DMG) there are "large swathes of monsters that PCs can't hit without a magic weapon" then it follow that either magic weapons are so common as to render any and all adventurers useless or that only the monsters remain.

This is kinda like the traveling discussion a while back, how common are those monsters? because if confronting a wight is really common then I would expect to find magic weapons in almost every household. Or mankind was erased from the world.

People have been refusing to accept that D&D was basically intentionally designed with vast internal inconsistencies from the get-go.

None of this bothers me.  The internal inconsistencies enforce a certain style of play.  Why are there not armies of unkillable wights?  Because I said so, and their characteristics consider what challenges the party first and the sense of how this widget works conceptually with another widget last.

All I care about is a set of possibles and constraints that challenges 4-6 players.  I'm not particularly concerned with how well that supports the ability to use the world as a fantasy platform as an object independent of play/action at the table.  I'm unabashedly gamist.

Quote from: EOTB;1141970People have been refusing to accept that D&D was basically intentionally designed with vast internal inconsistencies from the get-go.

None of this bothers me.  The internal inconsistencies enforce a certain style of play.  Why are there not armies of unkillable wights?  Because I said so, and their characteristics consider what challenges the party first and the sense of how this widget works conceptually with another widget last.

All I care about is a set of possibles and constraints that challenges 4-6 players.  I'm not particularly concerned with how well that supports the ability to use the world as a fantasy platform as an object independent of play/action at the table.  I'm unabashedly gamist.

Your argument here is basically that D&D was designed a certain way (which is debatable) therefore it ought to be that way, which is a type of naturalistic fallacy. You're basically giving us your opinion of what the game supposedly is or its original design intent as evidence that therefore it must or should (ought) to be played that way. And you're also backing it up with your own willingness to accept such concessions as evidence that therefore everyone else should too. All of this is fallacious thinking.

None of this really addresses the issues, it merely hand-waves them way as "this is the way things are and ought to be" and "I am willing to accept that".  But the issues are still there, and your willingness to work with them doesn't negate the fact that they might bother somebody else, get in the way of their play-style, or even have simple solutions that don't necessitate them submitting to your own play-style preferences simply on the basis that you believe that that is the way the game is and ought to be.

I was responding to the question framed in the op.  Which doesn't presume a problem but asks what we do or don't do.  And why.  

People who aren't the op noted this ignores their concerns, which I respond again to note that is accurate because I don't share those concerns.

Quote from: EOTB;1141970People have been refusing to accept that D&D was basically intentionally designed with vast internal inconsistencies from the get-go.

None of this bothers me.  The internal inconsistencies enforce a certain style of play.  Why are there not armies of unkillable wights?  Because I said so, and their characteristics consider what challenges the party first and the sense of how this widget works conceptually with another widget last.

All I care about is a set of possibles and constraints that challenges 4-6 players.  I'm not particularly concerned with how well that supports the ability to use the world as a fantasy platform as an object independent of play/action at the table.  I'm unabashedly gamist.

Fair enough.

I allow it as a Shopping Quest, akin to how AD&D suggested that if you absolutely must sell magic items do it like high end antiquities and/or contraband. Which means very powerful people going to war, secret elite estate auctions, or public gifting as diplomacy... or secret backroom deals & smuggling (with several fakes thrown in). That touches on all three pillars (explore, social, combat) as quest potential.

As a shop... only for minor one-shot or small number of charges utilities, and even then uncommon or rare. I don't lke how it cheapens the mystery.

As for what to do with that extra +1 sword, do as the DMG suggested: gift it to a henchman (or turn a favored hireling into a henchman)! You do run with hirelings & henchmen still, right? :D

Quote from: EOTB;1141981I was responding to the question framed in the op.  Which doesn't presume a problem but asks what we do or don't do.  And why.  

People who aren't the op noted this ignores their concerns, which I respond again to note that is accurate because I don't share those concerns.

OK

However you also make assertion about the design of D&D.

Quote from: EOTB;1141970People have been refusing to accept that D&D was basically intentionally designed with vast internal inconsistencies from the get-go.

None of this bothers me.  The internal inconsistencies enforce a certain style of play.

This is a statement about your understanding of how D&D is designed.

Quote from: EOTB;1141970All I care about is a set of possibles and constraints that challenges 4-6 players.  I'm not particularly concerned with how well that supports the ability to use the world as a fantasy platform as an object independent of play/action at the table.  I'm unabashedly gamist.

Again it fine that what you care about and that you enjoy your style of play. However that not an answer as to why you think D&D internal inconsistencies leads to a particular style of play.

Nor is the first paragraph I quoted is an answer to why you think D&D internal inconsistencies leads to a particular style of play.

My viewpoint is that classic D&D is pretty flexible and that it inconsistencies are an important elements of D&D as a fantasy campaign toolkit. Dial it one way you get the style of play you enjoy, dial it another way you get the style of play I enjoy. Magic Item trade is one of those dials. The fact that various classic edition had pricing like the AD&D 1e DMG just makes it easier for us who like to have magic item trade and it readily ignored for those who don't. That it as whole D&D is neutral as to whether there are magic item shops in a campaign or not.

Quote from: estar;1141992That it as whole D&D is neutral as to whether there are magic item shops in a campaign or not.

Rob, come now.  We were both present during the 1E phase of the hobby and read the same materials.  You know as well as I do that "magic shops" were quickly raised up in the periodicals and discussion areas of the day as something to be discouraged; that the inclusion of sale prices was not intended to turn the acquisition of magic items into a shopping trip for players; and that the acquisition of magic items through traditional adventuring was stated as the presumption in the writing.  All sorts of contrivances were provided for why a sales market existed but not a buy market.  I simply dispense with the contrivances and state plainly; pandering to the predicate was a mistake instead of cleanly stating it was for game play reasons alone.

This isn't year zero, and I shouldn't have to go look up citations for this.  I might understand if it was some 18 year-old looking at all of this for the first time, but with you I expect a little difference.

Quote from: EOTB;1141970All I care about is a set of possibles and constraints that challenges 4-6 players.  I'm not particularly concerned with how well that supports the ability to use the world as a fantasy platform as an object independent of play/action at the table.  I'm unabashedly gamist.

That is all well and good inside the Dungeon.

Quote from: EOTB;1142000Rob, come now.  We were both present during the 1E phase of the hobby and read the same materials.

And some people disagreed with the conclusions of what passed for a consensus reading back then and went their own way based on their own interpretations of the rules and desires for a campaign world.

If one size fits all was the goal they never would have released different settings with different levels of magic and gonzo-ness to them.

I didn't enjoy "One True Wayists" then and I have even less tolerance for them now. I'm glad you have something that works for you. Others have different preferences and desires for coherent settings where things hang together better than the settings of early 2000's distopian YA novels.

Quote from: EOTB;1142000Rob, come now.  We were both present during the 1E phase of the hobby and read the same materials.  You know as well as I do that "magic shops" were quickly raised up in the periodicals and discussion areas of the day as something to be discouraged; that the inclusion of sale prices was not intended to turn the acquisition of magic items into a shopping trip for players; and that the acquisition of magic items through traditional adventuring was stated as the presumption in the writing.

Yes I was there, and like minis versus no minis, levels are specials versus no levels, there was no "consensus" around magic shop vs no magic shops.

In the DMG page 116

QuoteIt is an obvious premise of the game that magic items are made somewhere by someone or something. A properly run campaign will be relatively
stringent with respect to the number of available magic items, so your players will sooner or later express a desire to manufacture their own.

You are choosing to focus on

QuoteA properly run campaign will be relatively stringent with respect to the number of available magic items

As I am choosing to focus on

Quoteso your players will sooner or later express a desire to manufacture their own

along with this further down

QuoteThis still leaves an incredible range of magic items which player characters can aspire to manufacture.

To support your position we have this which you focused on page 120

QuoteThis random determination table needs no explanation. Because of its weighting, and the weighting of the MAGIC ITEMS table, most treasures will have magic potions, scrolls, armor and weapons. This is carefully planned so as to prevent imbalance in the game. Keep potent magic items rare. (Increase scarcity by destroying or stealing what is found!)

I in turn focused on this from page 121.

QuoteThe suggested experience point (x.p.) values are for characters who keep the items. Gold piece sale values are the usual sums which characters will be paid for magic items, and if so sold, the x.p. award should be based on the selling price of the items, not the x.p. value. Also remember that a character is assumed to retain an item, thus getting the low x.p. value for it, if he or she sells it to another player character. (See EXPERIENCE.)

QuoteThis isn't year zero, and I shouldn't have to go look up citations for this.  I might understand if it was some 18 year-old looking at all of this for the first time, but with you I expect a little difference.

Yes it isn't year zero, and now we have a fuller account what people did back in the day and why they did it. You cite Gygax, and I point to Bledsaw Senior. Sure Gygax was the author, but if it was setup to be run in such a specific way, why did so many of us figured it was OK to run it that way. Only to find out later in a Dragon article that we were going about it wrong?

I think Gygax didn't design AD&D to be as rigid as you make it out to be. Sure that how he ran his campaign, but he was smart enough know about Bledsaw and Judges Guild. About other styles of play that were not extremes but variations on the tools OD&D had. So he made sure that to maximize the appeal of AD&D that some, but not all, of that was retained. Fine if you are going to sell magic items here are some prices.

I'm not a big fan of 'The Magic Store' in towns.  Why bother adventuring when knocking over the store will probably be more profitable.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1141866… I was reinforcing the statement that I don't play in games where +1 swords are so common you'd expect to find more than one the entire length of the game; that such items are *that rare*…When I have used monsters like that in games before, usually the party must retrieve one specific magical item in order to have any hope of beating the creature. Having any old "junk" magic item simply will not do. When said monster is dispatched, the magical item is likely nothing special anymore beyond being a curio - its magic having been spent or rendered dormant…

I apply a similar style as well.  The magical item exists to serve its purpose for the thematic requirements of the adventure.  Something like the mythical Glaive in the film Krull, where it has a sole purpose for it to exist (plus its so cool!  Heh).  

If a +1 sword is boring, one can always go with the sentient rules and add personality to it, where it helps propel the adventurers cause in the narrative, or conversely, betrays them at the most inopportune time.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I feel that the earlier editions of D&D made it easier to do this, where 3e onwards, it was almost expected the players would be carrying magic items for game balance.  It does feel in 5e and the like, magical items are almost expected to be accrued in every adventure and pretty common.  To be fair, I think a lot of the older 1e modules were too liberal with their magic items and I would remove them accordingly, unless they had a specific purpose in mind.

Quote from: S'mon;1141928In old-school D&D (like the FR game I'm running currently) PCs don't just go around in a group of 4 PCs, there are typically half a dozen NPC henchmen & such along too. Giving your henchman a magic sword is a great way to keep his loyalty! Plus it improves your own survival prospects.

Yea, if going with the magical items are more common, nothing makes a hireling more happy than a magical item bestowed to them.  Think of it as gaining the ability to have multiple strikes as a fighter at low level.
Everyone always forgets to tip the help.  Heh

I never said there was a consensus among the audience to anything stated by Gygax/TSR

I never said there was one true way to play

I didn't "focus on pg 120"

I didn't predicate my opinion on game references at all

I said "neutral" was a wishful and misleading adjective

I said I, me, EOTB, reject magic ships for the same reasons they were discouraged back in the day, which have borne out as valid for what I want out of the game - which is the adventuring to which finding magic items is traditionally a reward of

I said, in a secondary discussion, that direct world-building using AD&D rules as logic will always produce non sequiturs; that these NS are a tip off that the world/game wasn't built out of the rules like an equation, but that rules were ad hoc, addressing specific immediate objectives; and that at my table I respond to consistency arguments by grounding those rules not in their consistency but in my DM say-so


And all of my thoughts stand as originally stated (but not as paraphrased by others).  Thank you for coming to my ted talk.

Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies;1142021Correct me if I'm wrong but I feel that the earlier editions of D&D made it easier to do this, where 3e onwards, it was almost expected the players would be carrying magic items for game balance.  It does feel in 5e and the like, magical items are almost expected to be accrued in every adventure and pretty common.  

Items are actually far less common in standard 5e* than in 1e.  I think they're less common in 5e than in BX-BECMI, which tended to be a lot more magic-sparse than 1e IME (mostly due to how NPC magic items are generated in 1e). 3e & 4e are magic-soaked though. But I run my level 20 5e game using Pathfinder materials, leave in most of the items, and it works ok.

*My level 12 5e Princes of the Apocalypse group have no magic armour & almost no money, though they have some magic weapons. Recently the melee Fighter dragonborn was delighted when I let him don the plate armour from a dead Air Elemental Myrmidon - he'd spent the last 11 levels in his starting AC 16 chainmail!

Quote from: S'mon;1142074*My level 12 5e Princes of the Apocalypse group have no magic armour & almost no money, though they have some magic weapons. Recently the melee Fighter dragonborn was delighted when I let him don the plate armour from a dead Air Elemental Myrmidon - he'd spent the last 11 levels in his starting AC 16 chainmail!

They should have invested in a crowbar.  Solves most money issues.

Good discussion, guys, thanks! (And by all means keep it going!) And special thanks to estar for your tables. I likely won't be using them as-is but they are an excellent starting point for my own.

Personally, I've come to the decision that magic items will be sold in my world, but there are no magic item shops and definitely no magic item supermarkets - I've always hated them, even in 3.X where some of my previous DMs liked to include them - but instead they are sold by curio shops, pawn shops, alchemists and the like that are few and far between and possibly hard to find. Even then, the items for sale will mostly be potions, low-level scrolls and other relatively weak items. The good stuff the PCs have to quest for, either directly or to find some components or whatever so that someone can craft it for them.

Also, I suppose they can craft their own stuff eventually, but they're so low-level and poor now that I won't have to worry about it for a long time yet.

Thanks also for bringing up the GP values in the 1e DMG. I haven't read the book much (I know, I know; it's on my list of things to do) since I don't run 1e, but now I know and can and will use it as a reference.

Quote from: Shasarak;1142084They should have invested in a crowbar.  Solves most money issues.

I don't see how - there just isn't much money in the campaign area of the adventure. The PCs spend all their time fighting dirt poor evil cultists.

I came up with this today for crafting items in my 1e AD&D/OSRIC Forgotten Realms game. It can be used as a guide to what NPC wizards might be able to make, or what might be buyable in a city (setting a level/XP cap per city, then rolling on items tables). I like using the 1e DMG XP values as a limiter, you get some interesting effects like magic daggers being quite powerful for their rarity. NPC references are IMC - I halve official listed FR NPC levels.

Magic User Arcane Crafting
Level 4 - create potion (with alchemist)
Level 6 - create scroll
Level 7 - create potion (no alchemist)
Level 9 - enchant minor magic item via item crafting
Level 12 - create major item via 'Enchant Item' spell.
Level 16 - create major permanent item via 'Permanency' spell.

Magic Item Crafting
Wands must be crafted with at least 20 charges (& meet spell prereqs)
Staffs must be crafted with at least 30 charges (& meet spell prereqs)
Level 9: Item of up to 250 XPV (eg +1/+2 dagger, +2/+3 dagger, magic ammunition, +1 shield)
Level 10: Item of up to 500 XPV (eg +1 sword, +1 spear, +2 shield, +1 leather)
Level 11: Item of up to 1000 XPV (eg +2 sword, +3 shield, +1 platemail, bracers of defence AC 8) - eg Emelyn the Gray
Items of over 1000 XPV require the 'Enchant Item' spell (plus any spell prereqs)
Level 12: Item of up to 1500 XPV (eg +3 sword, +4 shield, bracers of defence AC 7)
Level 13: Item of up to 2000 XPV (eg +4 sword, +5 shield, +2 platemail, bracers of defence AC 6) - eg Elminster, Khelben Arunsen, Larloch
Level 14: Item of up to 2500 XPV (eg hammer of thunderbolts, bracers of defence AC 5) - eg The Simbul
Level 15: Item of up to 3000 XPV (eg +5 sword, +3 platemail, bracers of defence AC 4) - eg Halaster Blackcloak
Permanent items of XPV over 3000 require the 'Permanency' spell (plus any spell prereqs)
Level 16: Item of up to 3500 XPV (eg +4 platemail, bracers of defence AC 3).
Level 17: Item of up to 4000 XPV (eg +5 defender sword, bracers of defence AC 2)
Level 18: Item of up to 4500 XPV (eg +5 platemail)
Level 19: Item of up to 5000 XPV (eg Plate Mail of Etherealness)
Level 20: Item of up to 6000 XPV (eg Robe of the Archmagi)
Level 21: Item of up to 7000 XPV (eg Drums of Panic)
Level 22: Item of up to 9000 XPV (eg Tome of Understanding, Book of Infinite Spells)
Level 23: Item of up to 12000 XPV (eg Vorpal Sword, Staff of Power, Rod of Resurrection)
Level 24: Item of up to 15000 XPV (eg Staff of the Magi) - eg Karsus

Quote from: MorblotSo... Do you allow your PCs to buy magic items? If you do, how do you price them? Do you have magic item supermarkets where everything can be found or are traders of magic items few and far between? Do you only allow certain magic items to be bought, such as potions or scrolls?

Generally, no buying of magic items... but you might be able to pay the local cleric a ton of coin for a single healing or cure poison potion every month (once a week at most). In a very big city, like the biggest city in the realm, there might be an antiquities dealer that secretly sells/buys the one-off magic item or two (not a regular selection though!). Perhaps a king or powerful sorcerer might buy one from you or be willing to trade items. And it's not that I'm stingy on magic treasure or anything - it's that I think having it for sale makes it less cool, less fun to find out in the wilds. YMMV.

Quote from: Chainsaw;1142231Generally, no buying of magic items... but you might be able to pay the local cleric a ton of coin for a single healing or cure poison potion every month (once a week at most).

My big complaint on making the potions so unavailable in earlier editions is that in my experience it led to the very unfun "who's going to play the cleric?" because magic is the only thing in those editions that can prevent weeks to months of bedrest to regain lost hit points and survive many poisons and diseases.

That (i.e. needing a pagan priest whose powers were dependent on proselytizing the party) was probably the single biggest thing that caused the groups I was in to abandon D&D until 4E and 5e with its explicitly non-divine healers (the 3.5e bard eventually got enough tools via WotC splats to be a functional replacement, but only if you allowed the non-core material... it also requires allowing them to buy wands of healing for roughly list prices).

Potions on the other hand don't have any religious connotations and also don't require someone to play something they really don't enjoy... plus it's a good way to suck excess money out of campaign via continuing expenses. Make those potions not worth the price means many people won't even bother (how many hirelings you can throw out as meat shields could you get for what you're paying for "regain 1d8 hp one time"?).

Frankly, 4E is bar none the best system for allowing you to completely skip magic items (even potions); you either flip the inherent bonuses switch or just treat the PCs as 20% lower in level (i.e. treat a level 10 as a level 8) when considering what PC's can handle and you don't need any items at all.

A lot of it has already been gone over, but I'll put in my $0.02.

I figure that magic items are often "priceless" in the same way that people say that various artwork in "priceless", but is still sold in auctions and through various art dealers. They're not something that's in the price range of Joe Schmoe foot soldier, but not something that is super rare amongst knights (often as heirlooms) and semi-common amongst adventurers.

As to the monsters immune to non-magic attacks (though I will point out - the aforementioned wight could be taken out with sufficient holy water) I always figured that immunity (and later DR) was partially a worldbuilding factor to make sure that low-tier adventurers were always in demand, as opposed to a militia with few dozen longbows being more effective and much cheaper.

Quote from: Chris24601;1142234That (i.e. needing a pagan priest whose powers were dependent on proselytizing the party) was probably the single biggest thing that caused the groups I was in to abandon D&D until 4E and 5e with its explicitly non-divine healers (the 3.5e bard eventually got enough tools via WotC splats to be a functional replacement, but only if you allowed the non-core material... it also requires allowing them to buy wands of healing for roughly list prices).

I'm sorry, what? Since when have clerics been required to do that in exchange for healing?

In any case...

Obviously, a lot of it depends on the campaign world. A high magic world will make it easier to buy (and sell) gear, but it won't be worth as much. In low magic, even a magical sword +1 will command top dollar (particularly in any campaign where you're facing critters with 'needs +1 or better weapon to hit' or 'damage reduction 10/magic').

That being said, expendable low-level items like potions and scrolls shouldn't be too hard to purchase.

Quote from: Chris24601;1142234My big complaint on making the potions so unavailable in earlier editions is that in my experience it led to the very unfun "who's going to play the cleric?" because magic is the only thing in those editions that can prevent weeks to months of bedrest to regain lost hit points and survive many poisons and diseases.

Well, the hard part of answering any of these types of questions to every reader's satisfaction is that we all tend to have a mix of house rules and standards that complement our answer, not to mention we're not all even using the same base "OSR" game. For example, in my games, I tend to have lots of potions as treasure (as I said, not stingy on magic treasure). I also include buyable non-magical healing salves and poultices. I have also been playing AS&SH where every class can recover its a HD of HP each night.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142238I'm sorry, what? Since when have clerics been required to do that in exchange for healing?

Since it was the late-80's and one of the only DMs in the area that I could actual reach the game location of without needing a car ride from my parents was, in retrospect, a massively anti-Christian **** (or was just really trying to look Edgy; I was 13 at the time and he was probably only 19-20 and going to the local community college, but that was basically an ADULT to me back then). The GM's main problem was that this city is EXTREMELY conservative and Christian, as were most of the players.

Anyway, the DM insisted that if the cleric wasn't played in accord with this pagan faith of his campaign world they'd lose their spellcasting abilities and that if they didn't try to convert the other PCs it'd be a lapse of his faith... and he was really stingy with any alternative means of healing and, again in retrospect, really loved his railroads.

Long story short... a shitty GM can ruin just about any game system to the point you just aren't even interested in looking for any good points in it anymore. Fortunately, I found an ad for the Robotech RPG in the back of my Dragon magazine subscription and mail-ordered the first book direct from Palladium. I started running it for my friends, we later expanded into Heroes Unlimited, Palladium Fantasy and eventually Rifts when it came out.

It took 3e for me to even look at D&D again... it took the Living Arcanis campaign being run by a local game club several of my friends were members of to actually get me to play it and even then I was basically the earliest adopter of 4E in the area because it was the first version of D&D that ever remotely did what I was looking for in a fantasy RPG setting (i.e. allowed you to create PCs that in some way resembled those in actual fiction that wasn't derived from D&D and I really hated the backslide in 5e of dumping the warlord and deep martial classes to the point I didn't even touch it until 2016 and STILL haven't bought the books, just used a fellow player's copies).

Quote from: Chris24601;1142242Since it was the late-80's and one of the only DMs in the area that I could actual reach the game location of without needing a car ride from my parents was, in retrospect, a massively anti-Christian **** (or was just really trying to look Edgy; I was 13 at the time and he was probably only 19-20 and going to the local community college, but that was basically an ADULT to me back then). The GM's main problem was that this city is EXTREMELY conservative and Christian, as were most of the players.

Anyway, the DM insisted that if the cleric wasn't played in accord with this pagan faith of his campaign world they'd lose their spellcasting abilities and that if they didn't try to convert the other PCs it'd be a lapse of his faith... and he was really stingy with any alternative means of healing and, again in retrospect, really loved his railroads.

Long story short... a shitty GM can ruin just about any game system to the point you just aren't even interested in looking for any good points in it anymore. Fortunately, I found an ad for the Robotech RPG in the back of my Dragon magazine subscription and mail-ordered the first book direct from Palladium. I started running it for my friends, we later expanded into Heroes Unlimited, Palladium Fantasy and eventually Rifts when it came out.

It took 3e for me to even look at D&D again... it took the Living Arcanis campaign being run by a local game club several of my friends were members of to actually get me to play it and even then I was basically the earliest adopter of 4E in the area because it was the first version of D&D that ever remotely did what I was looking for in a fantasy RPG setting (i.e. allowed you to create PCs that in some way resembled those in actual fiction that wasn't derived from D&D and I really hated the backslide in 5e of dumping the warlord and deep martial classes to the point I didn't even touch it until 2016 and STILL haven't bought the books, just used a fellow player's copies).

Your GM was a cocksucker. Okay, I see where you're coming from now. Wow, that had to suck.

I totally do not blame you for being bitter about it.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142252Your GM was a cocksucker. Okay, I see where you're coming from now. Wow, that had to suck.

I totally do not blame you for being bitter about it.

Thanks. It ended up being a formative moment for me in terms of what I like and dislike in RPGs. It also killed my interest in a lot of what people tout as great about the OSR/D&D-isms, particularly as I started to delve into other systems.

For example, Robotech, with Palladium's flat leveling curve and starting out as mecha pilots all but killed my interest in "zero-to-hero" play. Palladium Fantasy's take on the gods (i.e. they're alien energy beings that primitives mistake for gods because they can grant powers) cemented my preferences for fantasy religions as "variable interpretations" vs. "absolute truth."

And in terms of magic items, Palladium also set the idea in me that basic mechanical bonuses to hit and damage aren't even worth being treated as magical properties (Palladium made those into Dwarven and Kobold-crafted items) and that there's a price for everything (even if that price is well beyond what ordinary folks could ever afford). This is something that carried over to my own system where to-hit, damage and improved defense bonuses come from item quality while magic properties are things like flaming blades, dispelling magic barriers or making you resistant to heat.

I also grew to prefer "unlimited" magic (in the sense that weapon attacks and running are unlimited) via a combo of Heroes Unlimited powers feeling more like how magic worked in most fantasy books I was reading and delving into Mage the Ascension in college. Similarly, Rifts' magic as an alternative to technology instead clearly surpassing technology led to a lot of my design preference for magic combat system where magic is basically "weapon training for the brainy but frail" (i.e. your default magic attack hit about as hard as a sword or bow).

It's probably why my preferences are for, as aforementioned, a kind of tiered magic item system where things like potions through various "+1 item properties" (using 3e nomenclature) can be bought and sold in a similar way to how we buy and sell automobiles today while leaving more potent items to the equivalent of buying private jets or yachts.

And it's worth taking that into account because while you can say "magic items are so rare that they're only traded among the nobility" but then, even if that rules out a normal level 1 PC, what's a level 9+ fighter who clears land, builds a stronghold, attracts followers and starts collecting rent from the families on his land? What's his son if your campaign lasts long enough that you start playing the second generation?

There's a lot of presumption in those statements about magic items and nobility regarding how far they see the PCs rising in society that doesn't always apply.

Quote from: Chris24601;1142314And it's worth taking that into account because while you can say "magic items are so rare that they're only traded among the nobility" but then, even if that rules out a normal level 1 PC, what's a level 9+ fighter who clears land, builds a stronghold, attracts followers and starts collecting rent from the families on his land?

He's a noble and should typically have the opportunity to buy several randomly-generated magic items (from merchants/brokers, or possibly adventurers) each year, I'd say. A good thing to include on a random events table.

Eg my son's PC once travelled to Viridistan to sell a magic item to the Green Empress, knowing she'd pay far more for it than he could get at home in Altanis.

Much of the magic weapon to hit this critter stuff in d&d has no basis in real world lore surrounding those fictional critters. Looking at European folklore for werewolves you find that werewolves for example are especially susceptible to silver, not that they are invulnerable to anything else, same with vampires and in some cases even incorporeal undead. Its almost as if Gygax was simply trying to gatekeep against low levels or provide incentive to adventure in crappy dungeons before you can do the cool ones.

If you want a folklore, myth or fantasy literature emulator, I don't think D&D will be a good fit without tons of modifications. YMMV.

Quote from: Morblot;1142089Thanks also for bringing up the GP values in the 1e DMG. I haven't read the book much (I know, I know; it's on my list of things to do) since I don't run 1e, but now I know and can and will use it as a reference.

I would strongly recommend you not use the GP values in the 1e DMG as they greatly undervalue high power magic items. For example, a magic scroll is worth 300 gp times the spells level, so a 9th level spell only has 9 times the value of a first level spell. Third Edition D&D increases the prices exponentially, so a scroll with a 9th level spell is worth 9x9 or 81 times as much as a scroll with a first level spell. Much more appropriate value considering it's power.

Swords are similar, in 1e a +5 sword is only worth 7.5 times the value of a +1 sword whereas it's worth 25 times as much in 3e (5x5).

As for magic items shops, I break down magic items by cost (as above) and set the rarity based on that cost with the cheapest items being widely available and anything very expensive being available only through brokers (magic item brokers work for the various wizard guilds IMC).

Here's a blurb from the playtest version of OD&D (courtesy of Mike Mornard):

"Smallest villages have nothing, middle sized places will have fair probabilities of having standard mounts, magic swords and arrows, and standard-type mounts. The same is true for gems for sale. Walled towns will have all standard items for sale, some unusual ones, and a dragon market in which to sell your catch."

If you newbs are upset about magic shops, just wait till your players go to the dragon store!

Depends on the campaign, as always.

In the typical D&D campaign, I dont' mind magic shops in major cities, with some magic items for sale. Mostly consumables with a smattering of items. There isn't a mass production of magic items, so the ones for sale will be random and unpredictable.
For a more specific setting, like when I run Dark Sun, there are no magic shops that sell non-consumables. Every magic item is rare and too valuable to just sell. But I run a very lean game in Dark Sun, and a pile of obsidian shards is a valuable treasure.

I also like to head off the item hoard with some leveling items (magic items that gain in power depending on the level of the user) and crafters being able to disenchant magic items and use the materials as reagents for crafting their own items.