Quote from: hedgehobbit;1141824The OP was talking about D&D. In D&D, a +1 sword no longer has use once you find a +2 sword (or, at all if you are a magic-user or cleric).

And in D&D, a +1 sword has only limited value anyway. It is +1 damage (the same as being strong) and only affects the chance to-hit 5% of the time. Even if it was the only +1 sword in the world, it wouldn't rate being a highly valued and prized heirlooms, except for sentimental value only.

If you are running a game that's not D&D where each magic-item is of great power then there might be a case where magic items are rarely for sale, but those conditions don't apply here.

Pretty much. A garbage tier magic item is still a garbage tier magic item no matter how rare magic supposedly is in your world. Declaring a plain +1 weapon a rare and prized commodity doesn't make magic items more special. It makes them forgettable and pathetic.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1141831Pretty much. A garbage tier magic item is still a garbage tier magic item no matter how rare magic supposedly is in your world. Declaring a plain +1 weapon a rare and prized commodity doesn't make magic items more special. It makes them forgettable and pathetic.

Well. I'll say it again. A setting where you can describe a "magic item" as "garbage tier" just doesn't happen to be where I care to be. Just my taste.

Quote from: Zirunel;1141832Well. I'll say it again. A setting where you can describe a "magic item" as "garbage tier" just doesn't happen to be where I care to be. Just my taste.

Right. Also, if you are going for rare magic items, and the best / only way to get them is through adventure, then the absolute last thing you should be doing is making a +1 damage item. It's as unimaginative as it is unsatisfying.

Quote from: Morblot;1141786So... Do you allow your PCs to buy magic items?

Yes

Quote from: Morblot;1141786If you do, how do you price them?

From several sources

1) How rare luxury goods that take a similar time to make are priced
2) Value found in AD&D 1e Dungeon Master Guide
3) The crafting time thus values of similar effects found in GURPS Magic. Plus the formula is broken down so you can alter the assumption and see what the cost would be. Because it is a reflection of how human behave it works with any system where the crafting time and the living standards of mages are known.
4) And several years of playtesting.

Luckily I released what I came up with in a easy to print booklet that happen to be made with Swords & Wizardry in mind which is a hop and skip from Old School Essentials. For magic items the two system are equivalent.

Magic Item Creation Cost
Herbs and Potions
Finally my full price list in case you want to see how it stacks against other goods.
MW Price List


 

Quote from: Morblot;1141786Do you have magic item supermarkets where everything can be found or are traders of magic items few and far between?

No, the sale of magic items is a luxury trade thus there are three tiers and a couple of things to know.

In the end it is a luxury trade, people just don't walk into a magic item shop unless they have the wealth. Having decent arms and armor counts having wealth. This is checked by either clerk (who happen to be low level mages) or guards at the shop. Pretty much the same as if you went to a silk trader, a spice shop, or a goldsmith/jeweller.

There are four tiers of magic items. Note this are relative values to other magic items not other trade good. Common, Uncommon, Rare, and Unique. Common items are the weaker potions, herb, and very low power magic items. They can be found on the street alongside various types of magical placebos that look flashy but don't do anything. Uncommon is what is what you find readily available in a shop. A +1 sword would be found in this category. The shop will rarely have racks of this stuff available. But they will have selection of uncommon although it varies from month to month. The Rares items are generally not for general sale but instead are sold at invite only auction held throughout the year.

Most of a shop's business is through commissions. The shop's proprietor has a web of contacts spread among different mages and can use them to have a magic item made to order. This is how most magic items are bought.

The frequency of magic shop is similar to that of any luxury goods. You are better off going off to a metropolis the setting equivalent of a Constantinople or Rome in its heyday. Or in the later Middle Ages, Paris, London, Venice, or Genoa.
 
I developed a set of random table based on the level of proprietor that allow me to generate the content of a shop every month. See the next post.

Quote from: Morblot;1141786Do you only allow certain magic items to be bought, such as potions or scrolls?

Only unique items can't be bought.

Quote from: Morblot;1141786And -- perhaps most importantly for me, since I'm lazy -- do you have any readymade tables for this on hand I could steal?

Yes see above. :-)

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1141834Right. Also, if you are going for rare magic items, and the best / only way to get them is through adventure, then the absolute last thing you should be doing is making a +1 damage item. It's as unimaginative as it is unsatisfying.

Hence, why such an item would be "garbage tier" and fretting about its existence or sale a waste of time. I would, however, include +1 items in the game simply on the basis that 1) you would presumably need to go through A (miserable +1 items) in order to get to B or C (stuff that's stronger than a +1 item) in the process of creating magic items (whether through magical skill or some spontaneous game world process), and 2) because some such +1 items may also sometimes have other benefits that make them better than a plain +1 item (elemental damage properties and/or spell effect).

Granted, some of this depends on how items work in the world or system. But at least going by traditional D&D conventions and assumptions, +1 items would not be entirely uncommon. And anything different would require specific in-world setting conceits to define exactly how magic items operate and originate in that world.

In pre-3e I avoid any routine item purchase by PCs. I'm more likely to have the local alchemist-apothecary gift some random potions in gratitude for having been rescued, or have Elrond give Bilbo a magic +1 sword. I'm running 1e AD&D and I have the DMG item sale value lists, certainly it was expected items would be sold, but I've not seen it attempted yet. Although if the players knew those scrolls of protection had a list value of thousands each...

Quote from: Zirunel;1141832Well. I'll say it again. A setting where you can describe a "magic item" as "garbage tier" just doesn't happen to be where I care to be. Just my taste.

"Garbage tier" in this case refers to the effect not worth being called magic.

+5% to hit and +1 damage isn't enough of a modifier to be meaningful. Other than the occasional shittily designed "must be this tall to fight this" monsters that can only be damaged by +1 weapons it's going to make a difference maybe one out of twenty attacks.

But there isn't a fighter in the world who'd take a +1 dagger over a mundane (or masterwork if 3e) longsword for anything other than those occasional gotcha monsters.

It's NOT a special item of great power... it's a curiosity you put on a shelf to gather dust and your grandkid who inherits it sells it to buy a new video game.

If you want magic to be special it doesn't just need to be rare... it needs to be powerful enough to make it worth seeking.

You can try to claim that the M-16 is special because they're rarer than AR-15's, but it doesn't make them so. A Barret M82A1 on the other hand? Now you're talking.

So for a campaign using this map



Full Scale Image

Keep in mind the average laborer makes only around 25d (1d = 1 silver piece) per month. That a knight has around a 5,000d budget for the year to cover himself, his gear, his horse, his family, and everything that needs to be done on the manor. If he is lucky the knight will clear about 500d, to 1,000d per year. Just about every noble family has at least one magic item in their possession like a +1 sword or a Cloak of Protection +1.

So Viridistan is a metropolis and has a population of 200,000. It has the following magic users who make magic items for sale. The monetary values at the end is total value they typically have in stock each month. Basically 10% of their earned XP.

Apothecary - Whitefire* MU 30 25,000d/250,000d
Apothecary Hooktong Ash MU 6 3,600d
Astrologer Fiiya Red Star Xiiji Red Star Cleric 3/3 450d
Exotic Herbs and Spices Ronan Grey-eyed Ftr 3rd Elxirs Only 450d
Flower Shop Fothergill the Clever Mu 4th, 900d
Fazhur Pink's Flower Shop Fazhur Pink Cleric 18th, 111,000d
Herbalist Ferlace Cl 29, Red Oak, Shadbark Cl 12  300,000d
Hypnotist Isa Binadyc MU 5 1800d
Illusionist Blansom feather Skyvallery MU4  900d
Magic Orfellis Maltarn MU-7 CE  7,000d
Magic Thordansalf th Peace Maker Runecaster 4 900d
Magic Haefinstaff the Blue MU 14  65,000d
Magic Greytael the Wolf MU 10  23,000d
Magic Fothergill Urchin MU 7  7,000d
Magic Malethon the noble MU 8  11,000d
Magic Dalfindin MU 4   900d
Pawnshop Wafim Sana the Unpredictable 1,000d
Sage School of Ancient Vertitis Bransum Wen  200,000d
Spellbinder Talonmouth Talr MU -9 CE  16,000d
Witch Morkweb Green MU 9 Cats LE   16,000d
Witch Clawbone Hakkle MU LE 4  1,000d
Witch Aggleroot Wortstinger MU 6  4,000d

*Whitefire is a special case. He is the son of the last Viridian Emperor who is in hiding for various reason that I am not going to get into. However he is evil and has his own network that he culivates. Publically he disguises himself as the Alchemist Whitefire with about 25,000d worth of potions and elixirs for sale. Privately he maintains a stock of 250,000d magic item and it is the leading vendor of illicit magic items.

Same list but in order of value of stock

Potions and Elixirs
Herbalist Ferlace Cl 29, Red Oak, Shadbark Cl 12  300,000d
Fazhur Pink's Flower Shop Fazhur Pink Cleric 18th, 111,000d
Apothecary - Whitefire* MU 30 25,000d, 250,000d
Apothecary Hooktong Ash MU 6 3,600d
Flower Shop Fothergill the Clever Mu 4th, 900d
Astrologer Fiiya Red Star Xiiji Red Star Cleric 3/3 450d
Exotic Herbs and Spices Ronan Grey-eyed Ftr 3rd Elxirs Only 450d

Full range of Magic Items
Sage School of Ancient Vertitis Bransum Wen  200,000d
Magic Haefinstaff the Blue MU 14  65,000d
Magic Greytael the Wolf MU 10  23,000d
Spellbinder Talonmouth Talr MU -9 CE  16,000d
Magic Malethon the noble MU 8  11,000d
Magic Fothergill Urchin MU 7  7,000d
Magic Orfellis Maltarn MU-7 CE  7,000d
Hypnotist Isa Binadyc MU 5 1,800d
Pawnshop Wafim Sana the Unpredictable 1,000d
Illusionist Blansom feather Skyvallery MU4  900d
Magic Thordansalf th Peace Maker Runecaster 4 900d
Magic Dalfindin MU 4   900d

Underground
Like Whitefire these three deal with the underground magic trade.
Witch Morkweb Green MU 9 Cats LE   16,000d
Witch Clawbone Hakkle MU LE 4  1,000d
Witch Aggleroot Wortstinger MU 6  4,000d

Typical Shop Inventory
All prices are doubled for sale. My generator calculates the creation costs. I double it for sale.

Sage School of Ancient Verities
+2 One Handed Spear (2,008d)
Beaker of 2x Healing Potion (8,000d)
Manual of Influence (10,000d)
Ring of Spell Storing (2nd x1) (4,000d)
+1 Composite Bow (1,225d)
+1 Staff Sling (1,005d)
Portable Hole (10,000d)
+2 Light Club (2,000d)
+1 Small Mace with Light 15' Radius (709d)
Beaker of 2x Healing Potion (8,000d)
Cloak of Protection +1 (2,000d)
Chime of Opening (6,000d)
+2 Mace (2,013d)
Ring of Fire Resistance (2,000d)
Decanter of Endless Water (2,000d)
Portable Hole (10,000d)
Beaker of 1x Heroism Potion (6,000d)
+2 One Handed Spear (2008d)
Wand of Charm Person (2 charges) (1,000d)
Wand of Paralyzing (4,000d)
+1 Cuirboulli Armor (1,050d)
Cloak of Elvenkind (2,000d)
Cloak of Displacement (6,000d)
+1 Broadsword with Cure Wounds (1,750d)
Bracers of Defense AC 6(13) (3,000d)
+3 Medium Shield (5,060d)
+2 Light Crossbow (3,030d)
+3 Small Shield (5,042d)
Runestone of Controlling Earth Elementals (8,000d)
Cloak of Elvenkind (2,000d)
+2 Broadsword (2,150d)
Bag of Devouring (1,000d)
Staff of Absorption (16,000d)
5 Bullets with +3 damage only (1,500d)
+3 Mace (6,013d)
Beaker of 2x Ethereality Potion (20,000d)
Scroll of Exorcise (1,200d)
Charm of Magic Missile (400d)
Scroll of Protect from Missiles (600d)
Scroll of Fly (600d)
Charm of Protection from Magic (4,000d)
Scroll of Speak with Animals (400d)
Charm of Web (800d)
Scroll of Restoration (1,400d)
Scroll of Clone (1,600d)
Scroll of Continual Light (600d)
Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds (800d)
Scroll of Prismatic Sphere (1,800d)
Charm of Ice Storm (1,600d)
Scroll of Final Death (1,400d)
Scroll of Prayer (600d)
Charm of Entangle (800d)
Scroll of Darkness, 15' Radius (400d)
Scroll of Power Word, Blind (1,600d)
Potion of Giant Strength (1,500d)
Potion of Invulnerability (700d)
Potion of Slipperiness (700d)
Potion of Treasure Finding (1,200d)
Potion of Flying (1,000d)
Potion of Flying (1,000d)
Potion of Slipperiness (700d)
Potion of Ethereality (1,000d)
Potion of Ethereality (1,000d)
Potion of Treasure Finding (1,200d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Growth (500d)
Potion of Treasure Finding (1,200d)
Potion of Flying (1,000d)
Potion of Extra Healing (1,200d)
Potion of Invulnerability (700d)
Potion of Flying (1,000d)
Potion of Giant Strength (1,500d)
Potion of Ethereality (1,000d)
Potion of Extra Healing (1,200d)
Potion of Treasure Finding (1,200d)
Potion of Slipperiness (700d)
Potion of Giant Strength (1,500d)
Potion of Giant Strength (1,500d)
Potion of Flying (1,000d)
Potion of Extra Healing (1,200d)
Potion of Ethereality (1,000d)

Magic Malethon the noble
A medium range shop. As you can see once you start getting away from the exceptional like the School of Ancient Verities it drops off considerably.
Girdle of Giant Strength (4,000d)
Scroll of Sleep (200d)
Charm of Haste (1,200d)
Charm of Detect Magic (400d)
Potion of Flying (1,000d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Levitation (500d)
Potion of Plant Control (500d)

Hypnotist Isa Binadyc
A small shop inventory. If you are wondering why the total exceeds 1,800d it because there is a chance that a roll on the common magic item table will result in a uncommon magic item appear, and that has a small chance of a rare magic item appear. This what happened with the Cloak of Elvenkind.

Cloak of Elvenkind (2,000d)
+1 Small Shield (542d)
Scroll of Purify Food and Drink (200d)
Scroll of Charm Person (200d)
Potion of Animal Control (500d)
Potion of Climbing (500d)
Potion of Heroism (600d)

Quote from: S'mon;1141843In pre-3e I avoid any routine item purchase by PCs.

I been allowing magic items purchases ever since I stared using the City State of the Invincible Overlord in 1981 via the Sorceror's Supply House on Regal Street.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1141824The OP was talking about D&D. In D&D, a +1 sword no longer has use once you find a +2 sword (or, at all if you are a magic-user or cleric).

Just because D&D lists such things does it require their use in a game?
Do we need to include ALL the creatures from the monster manuals?
Just because a GM never hands out crap like a +1 magic sword, does that that mean they've moved away from running real D&D?

There's large swathes of monsters that PCs can't hit without a magic weapon.  They may not think that sword is garbage tier when it's all that hurts the wight.

Grounding the sale of not-sale of magic items in whether its internally inconsistent with imaginary economy is to place the thought exercise above the play.  Selling magic items is to decide to not play, or at least "not play all".  That's boring.  I don't care if it's logical; we're not here to have a thought exercise, we're here to have fun around a dining room table.  Buying a DLC is never as fun as playing the game (or at least, I'd hope it wasn't).

Quote from: estar;1141840Finally my full price list in case you want to see how it stacks against other goods.
MW Price List

Hey a live goat is cheaper than a courtesan!  :-P

But seriously, very nice work!

If I was playing a game of DnD then I would expect there to be plenty of magical items around.

Pathfinder has got plenty of rules for determining the cost.

Quote from: EOTB;1141856Grounding the sale of not-sale of magic items in whether its internally inconsistent with imaginary economy is to place the thought exercise above the play.

For some of us the thought exercise is part of the play, part of the fun. As a Player I like the setting to make some sort of intuitive sense, not be constant wish fulfillment and whimsy.

Quote from: EOTB;1141856There's large swathes of monsters that PCs can't hit without a magic weapon.  They may not think that sword is garbage tier when it's all that hurts the wight.

If there are large swathes of monsters that can not be hit without a magic weapon then either there are going to be plenty of magical weapons or there are going to be lots of dead people killed by said monsters.