In our combat-oriented, fantasy-world Mage game I'm running a pretty badass Mind mage. He's a cunning maipulator and complete coward.
Let me just note I have never heard of a crunchier, more combat-oriented WW game EVER. (Note: I have not played Exalted.) We have minimal roleplaying, to my chagrin, and instead it's mostly a hackfest. Oh, FWIW we are completely ignoring paradox so our mages are pretty damn powerful.
With my 5 dots in Mind, I can basically discorporate at will and leave my body somewhere safe. So... I do. That fits in well with the whole cowardly standpoint. I picked up a dot in Correspondence so I know where I am, even minus most of my senses. I stay mindlinked with the party, so I'm in communication. Generally, I'll swing in to any fight and possess someone or something. (Most of our foes ride horses. These are my usual targets.) If nothing's available I'll unleash my 4 dots in Entropy and just start destroying shit (people, objects, whatever) from the spirit world. If whatever I'm possessing dies, oh well - crap happens.
As a side note, I really don't like the WW system - at least 1st edition that we're playing. :) It's far more complex than even crunchy d20, and only our GM really knows how to run it.
-O
Quote from: obrynAs a side note, I really don't like the WW system - at least 1st edition that we're playing. :) It's far more complex than even crunchy d20, and only our GM really knows how to run it.
-O
I only played it once, but 1e Mage is widely regarded as a nightmare. And if you're not using Paradox, it's no wonder it's a hackfest. :)
Exalted is crunchier, but it's also better. :deviousgrin:
Quote from: CyberzombieI only played it once, but 1e Mage is widely regarded as a nightmare. And if you're not using Paradox, it's no wonder it's a hackfest. :)
Exalted is crunchier, but it's also better. :deviousgrin:
Well, I don't doubt it. This is my first WW game, and after all the build-up it's a bit of a letdown. :) I like that the system is flexible, but it's flexible at the great cost of simplicity and utility.
When I checked out WoD 2nd edition, it looks like a number of the problems I have with it (crazy botches, floating difficulty numbers, etc.) have been fixed. I need to look at it more closely.
-O
Quote from: obrynWell, I don't doubt it. This is my first WW game, and after all the build-up it's a bit of a letdown. :) I like that the system is flexible, but it's flexible at the great cost of simplicity and utility.
When I checked out WoD 2nd edition, it looks like a number of the problems I have with it (crazy botches, floating difficulty numbers, etc.) have been fixed. I need to look at it more closely.
-O
Yeah, Mage 1e is pretty fuckin' primitive. Not to mention that the magic rules don't really make sense. Mage 2e is supposed to be better, but I don't actually play any of the World of Dorkness games. :)
Quote from: CyberzombieYeah, Mage 1e is pretty fuckin' primitive. Not to mention that the magic rules don't really make sense. Mage 2e is supposed to be better, but I don't actually play any of the World of Dorkness games. :)
I'm considering either using the base 2nd edition WoD rules (I got it during the halloween giveaway at DTRPG) or FATE for my next supernatural horror cthulhuesque game. I'd be considering WoD more strongly if I weren't so turned off by this Mage game. I'm having a good time playing a disembodied spirit, but honestly I'm kind of soured on the system. You're right - it is primitive, and there's a lot of jackassery in the dice mechanics. I really get the feeling the designers deliberately obfuscated the probabilities.
-O
Quote from: obrynI really get the feeling the designers deliberately obfuscated the probabilities.
Sounds like a WW game -- Probability: The Obfuscation. :heh:
Quote from: obrynI'm considering either using the base 2nd edition WoD rules (I got it during the halloween giveaway at DTRPG) or FATE for my next supernatural horror cthulhuesque game. I'd be considering WoD more strongly if I weren't so turned off by this Mage game. I'm having a good time playing a disembodied spirit, but honestly I'm kind of soured on the system. You're right - it is primitive, and there's a lot of jackassery in the dice mechanics.
Well, before HE FLAKED OUT LIKE A TOTAL BITCH, this one SWINE was running a PBP WoD 2e game that I was playing in. We were all normal humans (okay, non-supernatural humans; my character was *far* from normal) and the system seemed to work really well for that. The system has the advantage that a supernatural opponent will totally fuck a mortal the fuck up -- so if you want to survive against them, you *don't* get in a fight. It makes a good fit for horror because of that. :)
Quote from: CyberzombieThe system has the advantage that a supernatural opponent will totally fuck a mortal the fuck up -- so if you want to survive against them, you *don't* get in a fight. It makes a good fit for horror because of that. :)
Sweet. I really ought to look closer at it, then. First, though, I do want to experiment with FATE... It just seems like a lot of fun.
...wait a sec... this thread was supposed to be about characters. Sorry. :imsorry:
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Poof! :wizard:
And now it is no longer a hijack!
Quote from: obrynSweet. I really ought to look closer at it, then. First, though, I do want to experiment with FATE... It just seems like a lot of fun.
FATE I am totally and utterly unfamiliar with.
Of course your character is powerful. He has five dots in Mind. That's a big fuckin' deal.
First of all, you should go to Shadownessence.com, register and ask your questions there, since it's the best WoD community around.
Secondly, your ST is ignoring the real problems with magic, which are threefold:
1) Countermagic and wards are very important. Mages are unique in their ability to specifically counter each others' efforts. If your sanctum isn't full of wards and bans, you can die quite easily.
Related to this are rank 1 senses. If your enemy uses magic, he can find out pretty much anything about you.
Finally, any cool thing you can do an NPC can do.
2) Extended rituals are extremely lethal. Your enemies should be picking up traces of your Effects, tracking them back to you, and then building up a good 15 successes or so to obliteate you from the face of the earth. You should be building your defenses, which leads to:
3) Limits on running effects. In the old rules, every two Effects (rounded up) running increase difficulties for all subsequent rolls by 1. If you aren't using this rule, there are going to be balance problems.
So your choices are to nuke people and float around until somebody kills you, or to carefully balance your personal defences with your ability to act.
What was that one rote, some like Hellball or something like that. It amounted to a small tactical nuclear missile. You could take out a small town with that. I still fondly remember my one attempt at a mage had Forces 5 by the time I retired hime, was also walking Paradox. :)
I usually played Vampires or Werewolves so the Mage was an experiment. The combat system in v1.0 of WoD was rather complicated and could really drag a combat out. When you were dealing with things that could have anywheres from 1-8 attacks every round it could just get ridiculous. Combine that with having to hit, dodge and soak every attack; the system just wasn't made for fighting most of the time.
Quote from: GunhildaPoof! :wizard:
And now it is no longer a hijack!
Our Hero :love:
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Shooting_Dice - those all would make the game more balanced. I just don't think our GM is going to end up using any of them. I have that feeling...
It's not the balance I have a problem with so much - it's the mechanics, which I think are jackassed.
-O
That's because they are, mang. :)
Seriously, WW has done *so* much work on the rules you wouldn't hardly recognize WoD 2.0. It works. It's not perfect, but it works.
Quote from: CyberzombieFATE I am totally and utterly unfamiliar with.
You should take the time to check it out. It's a generic system, but gives a little more of a toolkit for a gamemaster than many generic systems out there.
It's FUGE-based, so if FUDGE ain't your cup of tea, you'll probably want to skip it.
http://www.faterpg.com
-O
Quote from: obrynShooting_Dice - those all would make the game more balanced. I just don't think our GM is going to end up using any of them. I have that feeling...
It's not the balance I have a problem with so much - it's the mechanics, which I think are jackassed.
-O
What is it you have a specific problem with? In any system, Mage will not work properly without the conditions I'm talking about unless the changes are radical enough not to make it Mage anymore.
Quote from: shooting_diceWhat is it you have a specific problem with? In any system, Mage will not work properly without the conditions I'm talking about unless the changes are radical enough not to make it Mage anymore.
(1) Large dice pools, sometimes with varying numbers of dice. Sometimes there are rerolls on 10, sometimes not.
+
(2) Floating difficulty numbers on a roll-by-roll basis, combined with
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(3) Varying numbers of successes needed on a roll-by-roll basis
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(4) Nutso botch rules that make rolling more dice scary rather than reassuring
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(5) The system requires 4 rolls (hit-dodge-damage-soak) in order to do routine combat acts like hitting someone with a stick.
Overall, I find it needlessly complex and obscure. As a GM, I'd find calculatnig probabilties to be either impossible or ridiculous. The system is supposed to be about story, but it gets bogged down by a system more tedious than any I've played to date. Combats take far longer than my 3.5 encounters, even when I use a battle map.
-O
Quote from: obryn(1) Large dice pools, sometimes with varying numbers of dice. Sometimes there are rerolls on 10, sometimes not.
+
(2) Floating difficulty numbers on a roll-by-roll basis, combined with
+
(3) Varying numbers of successes needed on a roll-by-roll basis
+
(4) Nutso botch rules that make rolling more dice scary rather than reassuring
+
(5) The system requires 4 rolls (hit-dodge-damage-soak) in order to do routine combat acts like hitting someone with a stick.
Overall, I find it needlessly complex and obscure. As a GM, I'd find calculatnig probabilties to be either impossible or ridiculous. The system is supposed to be about story, but it gets bogged down by a system more tedious than any I've played to date. Combats take far longer than my 3.5 encounters, even when I use a battle map.
-O
I think you would enjoy the new World of Darkness rules system better.
Difficulty is static, its always 8
Combat is one roll. Defense and soak are all built into the one roll.
Botch rule is basically gone. (You have you have such a small chance at something the GM gives you a hail mary attempt, if you roll on one on the only die you get to roll for your hail mary, you botch, otherwise you can't botch.)
Dice Pools can still be large, but if something is more difficult you lose dice before you roll.
Quote from: Xavier LangI think you would enjoy the new World of Darkness rules system better.
Difficulty is static, its always 8
Combat is one roll. Defense and soak are all built into the one roll.
Botch rule is basically gone. (You have you have such a small chance at something the GM gives you a hail mary attempt, if you roll on one on the only die you get to roll for your hail mary, you botch, otherwise you can't botch.)
Dice Pools can still be large, but if something is more difficult you lose dice before you roll.
Yep, I get that impression, too, from looking through the new rules. It looks like they fixed more or less everything I have a problem with. Probabilities would still probably be a bitch, but at least it's relatively manageable now.
Of course, that helps me not at all in this 1e Mage game. :)
-O
Quote from: obryn(1) Large dice pools, sometimes with varying numbers of dice. Sometimes there are rerolls on 10, sometimes not.
+
(2) Floating difficulty numbers on a roll-by-roll basis, combined with
+
(3) Varying numbers of successes needed on a roll-by-roll basis
+
(4) Nutso botch rules that make rolling more dice scary rather than reassuring
+
(5) The system requires 4 rolls (hit-dodge-damage-soak) in order to do routine combat acts like hitting someone with a stick.
Overall, I find it needlessly complex and obscure. As a GM, I'd find calculatnig probabilties to be either impossible or ridiculous. The system is supposed to be about story, but it gets bogged down by a system more tedious than any I've played to date. Combats take far longer than my 3.5 encounters, even when I use a battle map.
-O
Ah -- you're talking about the core rules, not the magic system per se. My reccomendation would be to use the Aeonverse rules (diff always 7, soak rating, not roll) for a high adventure game, or the new WoD rules for a low fantasy thing. The NWoD rules don't really have as many discrete options for fights, but they do run faster.
Quote from: shooting_diceAh -- you're talking about the core rules, not the magic system per se. My reccomendation would be to use the Aeonverse rules (diff always 7, soak rating, not roll) for a high adventure game, or the new WoD rules for a low fantasy thing. The NWoD rules don't really have as many discrete options for fights, but they do run faster.
Well, the botch rules kind of severely limit my enjoyment of the magic system :)
But... yes, I think that's exactly what I was complaining about.
-O