Quote from: AsenRG;930493..."Mapless chess" is called "playing blind" and is regularly practiced around here by chess players that at least pretend to be any good. I've played chess that way when I was younger and playing more chess than I do now, too. Against an opponent who was looking at the table, if you're wondering.
Then my regular opponent of the time gave up on playing with me:D!

Wow! Ya I don't want to play Chess with you either - that's impressive!
Seems like it would go hand in hand with your "mapless" GM'ing. Maybe you do have a map, but it's just written on your brain.

But to me, playing tactical combat like that is more like playing with a blind PC than playing without a map. In a mapless combat system, there really is no map - it's not just that you're not allowed to look at it. Blind Chess still has what happens based on where the pieces are on a map. To me, if I want a game about combat, I'm interested in experiencing the choices involved in a representation of that situation. What determines who can attack whom? Before a character can attack another, in reality, they need to be close enough and for nothing to be in the way, and that is determined by the details of where walls and obstacles (including the other fighters on both sides) are, which way they're facing, etc. The maneuvering is usually where most of the interesting gameplay is, for me, so having no map is like throwing out most of the game I want to play.

Quote from: Skarg;930697Wow! Ya I don't want to play Chess with you either - that's impressive!

It's not really, impressive, no. You just need to play a whole lot, and to play out transcripts of parties, and it happens naturally:).

QuoteSeems like it would go hand in hand with your "mapless" GM'ing. Maybe you do have a map, but it's just written on your brain.

That's exactly what I said in the last thread, wasn't it? I can tell you what things are, where they are, and how they interconnect. I just can't paint it as a map.
If I could, I'd probably have put an ad saying I'm doing maps for cheap:D!

QuoteBut to me, playing tactical combat like that is more like playing with a blind PC than playing without a map. In a mapless combat system, there really is no map - it's not just that you're not allowed to look at it.

Then I don't know a single mapless system. Can you name one?
All the systems that claim being "mapless" just mean "there's no need for a physical map with squares, and it's fine to approximate distances in range bands and the like, because the difference between 19 and 21 feet really doesn't matter all that much to a thrown spear".

QuoteWhat determines who can attack whom? Before a character can attack another, in reality, they need to be close enough and for nothing to be in the way, and that is determined by the details of where walls and obstacles (including the other fighters on both sides) are, which way they're facing, etc.

If only it was that simple! You should add at least armament and the way it's used to that, and let's not start about moral...

QuoteThe maneuvering is usually where most of the interesting gameplay is, for me, so having no map is like throwing out most of the game I want to play.

I've won a fight by manoeuvring while playing an online Forsaken game with no map in sight.
Well, by manoeuvring and wolfpack tactics, which was rather convenient given that I was in Garou form;).
(For some reason other players that were reading the description of said tactics told me that it read like "a parable in praise of pure unrestrained violence", though I'm not sure whether the phrase can be read as the compliment it was:D. To me, however, it was just "tactics that made sense for a werewolf in rage").

Quote from: AsenRG;930884...
Then I don't know a single mapless system. Can you name one?
All the systems that claim being "mapless" just mean "there's no need for a physical map with squares, and it's fine to approximate distances in range bands and the like, because the difference between 19 and 21 feet really doesn't matter all that much to a thrown spear".

Well, Traveller 1e outdoor encounters tell you to just use range bands but say nothing about a map.
Other games may have some sort of map but has few/insufficient rules to make the map make much difference, and doesn't let you use detailed tactics because the map detail and rules for same are too abstract and primitive.

"there's no need for a physical map with squares" is more or less enough to mean mapless to me. Even GURPS "Basic Combat", and the line editor for GURPS even says he generally doesn't use maps for combat.

See, the RPG game I started out with was TFT Melee, and I had played wargames before that, where the whole point of the game is winning battles by maneuver decisions. It's not about not having an accurate range to use for a thrown spear. It's about having the actual situation to play with. Where the people actually are determines who can see whom, who's in reach, what's in the way between targets, who's facing whom, where the fallen bodies, dropped weapons, fires, smoke, rough ground and other terrain, are. Whether it's really possible for you to run and tackle someone, or get to them with a weapon of a given length, and who can respond to your attempt to do that, or not. And just about everything else, is all mainly determined by where everyone is and what they're doing at the time, which is impossible to just hold in even one person's mind's eye for most people, especially if there are several people on each side. Not to mention getting everyone to get what the whole situation is so they can know what makes sense to try to do or not.

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Without a map, the main level of gameplay I'm interested in is absent, and replaced by "read the GM's idea about what's going on, and convince him my idea about what I do will work" (e.g. your wolfpack example). Having the situation laid out in a map with counters for everything makes a huge difference even if there are no explicit rules for what it all means.

Quote from: Skarg;930970Well, Traveller 1e outdoor encounters tell you to just use range bands but say nothing about a map.

Makes sense to me, but that's not "mapless". In order to have range bands, you have to have a map-like idea of who is where in relation to whom.

QuoteOther games may have some sort of map but has few/insufficient rules to make the map make much difference, and doesn't let you use detailed tactics because the map detail and rules for same are too abstract and primitive.

I take the "OD&D social skills approach" to this. "It's not the rules that make positioning make a difference, it's me".
"Doesn't let me use detailed tactics" is...sorry, I can't even understand what that means.

Quote"there's no need for a physical map with squares" is more or less enough to mean mapless to me. Even GURPS "Basic Combat", and the line editor for GURPS even says he generally doesn't use maps for combat.

But you still have to know who's where in relation to the others.

QuoteSee, the RPG game I started out with was TFT Melee, and I had played wargames before that, where the whole point of the game is winning battles by maneuver decisions.

I started my gaming at the age of 5 with backgammon, learned chess by myself at 6, thanks to a book named "chess for the smallest ones". Later my mom taught me two other variants of backgammon (played on the same board) and Yahtzee before I was 9, much to the distress of the rest of the family. (I only learned poker and other card games at about the age of 12, I think, and I never became much of a fan, strip poker excluded).
The majority of my earliest experiences are thus structured wargames, as I treat them, and they depend very heavily on positioning.
But they also taught me that a game can be fun without a map, too;).

QuoteIt's not about not having an accurate range to use for a thrown spear. It's about having the actual situation to play with. Where the people actually are determines who can see whom, who's in reach, what's in the way between targets, who's facing whom, where the fallen bodies, dropped weapons, fires, smoke, rough ground and other terrain, are.

But the map you posted only works for a kind of battles with legions or massed troops. In a real fight, people move. They move a lot, and change their hexes! How big are the hexes in what you showed?
Because the last time I was playing with mismatched weapons, I managed to retreat over 3 meters against a single continuous attack. I'm pretty sure those hexes are smaller, are they not? If they're up to 1,5 meters, I'd retreated two hexes just because my parry "roll" wasn't good enough by itself, or at least not compared to that attack.

QuoteWhether it's really possible for you to run and tackle someone, or get to them with a weapon of a given length, and who can respond to your attempt to do that, or not.

Simple: if the enemy can get to you with his wepon, you can reach them, too. Seriously, moving is part of any attack (and often continues throughout it when you press the advantage, unless you managed to grapple)!

QuoteAnd just about everything else, is all mainly determined by where everyone is and what they're doing at the time, which is impossible to just hold in even one person's mind's eye for most people, especially if there are several people on each side. Not to mention getting everyone to get what the whole situation is so they can know what makes sense to try to do or not.

Several people on each side aren't a problem, IME.

QuoteWithout a map, the main level of gameplay I'm interested in is absent, and replaced by "read the GM's idea about what's going on, and convince him my idea about what I do will work" (e.g. your wolfpack example).

Wrong, my "wolfpack" (which consisted of two werewolf PCs, one of which ran away), and the rest was me manoeuvring. I did move so in order to create tactical positions where I could take them on one at a time.
I just had to be faster, which I was:D.

We're hijacking the heck out of this thread about Low Fantasy Gaming RPG - sorry. Starting a new thread.

Just a note the LFG Hardcover is now available via Lulu for $22 USD   https://lowfantasygaming.com/2016/11/16/low-fantasy-gaming-hardcover/

I didn't pick up the hardcover but I ordered a copy from Lulu in the last hour.

Quote from: Krimson;931240I didn't pick up the hardcover but I ordered a copy from Lulu in the last hour.

Sweet!

Just a note the latest $1 Adventure Framework is out: #9 Red Hooks Tourney   https://lowfantasygaming.com/2016/11/19/red-hooks-tourney/

A new and excellent LFG review by Eric Diaz at Methods & Madness:   https://lowfantasygaming.com/2016/11/19/review-by-methods-madness/

My review copy has not yet arrived.

Quote from: RPGPundit;931786My review copy has not yet arrived.

Dang, thanks for letting me know. I just checked my emails, I posted it on 3 Nov, and according to the Australia Post website, the estimated delivery time is "10+ days".... so, hmmm.... hopefully it will hit your desk soon... ?

Quote from: Psikerlord;931823Dang, thanks for letting me know. I just checked my emails, I posted it on 3 Nov, and according to the Australia Post website, the estimated delivery time is "10+ days".... so, hmmm.... hopefully it will hit your desk soon... ?

Oh yeah, you totally shouldn't worry about it yet.  Uruguayan mail being what it is, sometimes books can take over 3 months to get here!
In any case, the good side of it is that out of hundreds of books sent my way, I think only 2 or 3 have ever failed to arrive.

The Uruguayan mail is the second worst in all of the Americas in terms of incompetence and theft, only HAITI is worse.

But luckily, postal workers don't steal books. Books are like toxic waste to them, bunch of fucking ignorants they all are, if they know a package is a book they'll lose all interest.

According to Lulu mine should arrive tomorrow.

I got my copy a couple of days ago though I have only skimmed through it. First thing, the book itself is nice. The quality is what you expect from Lulu. Decent weight paper, perfect binding, very clear pages. At a cursory glance, this is a well put together product. An old school gamer can do a quick flip through and the content is familiar. I need to give this a proper read through, but everything is streamlined. It looks like an old school game, but it's well organized and the pages are clean. Lots of tables. There's no cleric. Classes consist of Barbarian, Bard, Fighter, Magic User and Rogue. That's pretty fun and dangerous. I'll comment again once I get a chance to actually sit down and read it. As for the quality of the book, great quality and I am not disappointed for something I bought on a whim.