There was a recent thread "Superhero RPGs - Looking For Mid-Crunch Recommendations", but this is about low crunch. I've discussed superheroes with my own gaming group, and I'm currently considering more of a rules-light option, but with some caveats.

I want low-crunch, high-drama superheroic action -- but as a caveat, a bunch of people in my group are into diceless games, and it's influenced how we do things. We had a diceless campaign of superheroes in the Old West that was loosely similar to the Amber Diceless approach. Still, we're fine with dice and have played a bunch of dice-using games as well.

Games I've considered:

1) ICONS by Steve Kenson et al - https://stevekenson.com/icons/
2) Truth & Justice by Chad Underkoffler - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/19410/Truth--Justice
3) Crusaders by Olivier Legrand - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/400193/CRUSADERS
4) Masks by Brendan Conway, https://magpiegames.com/products/masks-a-new-generation-hardcoverpdf
5) Savage Worlds + super powers, by Shane Lacy Hensley (more medium-crunch than low-crunch, but I'm still considering)

However, none of them seem like a slam dunk. The main problem is that rules light tends to mean high randomness and/or poorly defined powers. In our diceless game, there was a lot of focus on powers because our powers were markedly superhuman and transcended what was possible. Often, I find that rules light games get sufficiently loosey-goosey that everything comes down to die rolls or point-spending rather than details of the characters. I realize that fits with many comic books, but I'm thinking something closer to real world like cinematic approaches.

I could adjust the rules to something with less randomness and layer on top of the system, which might end up being my approach. But I'm still mulling if there is something that fits more with my tastes.

I'd be fine with compare/contrast of the systems in general. What do people find as their strengths and weaknesses compared to each other?

Masks by Blacky the Blackball (NOT the Magpie Games one). It's free in PDF, and "at cost" in print. It's an amalgam of FUDGE, FATE, FASERIP, and ICONS. It's basically ICONS, with FASERIP attributes and Ranks (named differently, but they map 1-to-1) and Aspects from FATE. The powers list is pretty comprehensive and detailed, but the overall system is pretty simple. May or may not be to your taste, but it's free, so check it out and see for yourself:
https://gurbintrollgames.wordpress.com/masks/

There's also Good Guys Finish Last. I can't speak to the newest version, but the previous version was a VERY light 2d8 resolution system with, IIRC, a fair amount of narrative/collaborative elements. Too light for my taste, but I found a lot of its world and scenario building ideas to be really neat.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/382348/Good-Guys-Finish-Last?term=good+guys+finish+last

Hope this helps.

TSR's old MSH RPG is actually fairly straightforward once out of chargen. Still my go-to for a supers RPG.
Aberrant is my runner up. Its a bit more involved. But still pretty straightforward and one of the few WOD derived systems that I actually like DMing.

How about Supergame 3E. PM me and I'll send you a PDF of it to check out.

I am looking forward to testing Crusaders out in actual play.

Here's the Q&A with Dan the GMshoe
https://gmshoe.wordpress.com/2022/06/26/qa-olivier-legrand-crusaders/

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 15, 2022, 05:06:04 AM
I am looking forward to testing Crusaders out in actual play.

I dropped by TBP to see how they were doing.  Saw a mod passing out bans because somebody (the author?) tried to defend the game's name after other people found it problematic.  I think that should be a litmus test for whether or not RPG.net is for someone.

Anyways, back on topic...

1) ICONS - it's light, I'll give it that.  Stuff's defined, and not too "loosey goosey".  But I found it too damn light, stripping down some of the old FASERIP mechanics to something a bunch of seven year olds could easily grasp, and then adding a few bits from Fate.  It has (had?) a lot of love though, and may be exactly what you want.

2) Truth & Justice - Even lighter than ICONS, and (as I recall) does a better job of balancing players out.  If you want rules lite it'll be hard to top.  But I personally found it too abstracted and light.  If you want well defined powers and getting away from old school indy game design (i.e. "powered by handwavium"), this may be a pass.

3) Crusaders - Don't know it. 

4) Masks - Powered by the Apocalypse?  While a lot of folks love PbtA games, I'm not convinced they aren't just the "flavor of the decade", and will be chunked aside by 2030.  Regardless, while I'm sure it's rules lite, I've found PbtA to be much more confining to actually play (by the rules) than a game should be.  I'm willing to bet any long term play for a supers game would feel even more so, but I've only ever skimmed it.

5) Savage Worlds + super powers - It's good within its range.  It wants to offer you up to cosmic level heroes and such, but really it's best at the Suicide Squad/90's era X-men cartoon level.  Thor or Hulk is kinda' out of its scope, and I find it's powers to be kind of limiting to predefined stuff (which has some breadth and room for redefining, but not as much as say HERO or M&M or Wild Talents).  That said, I'm not sure it's all that good if you want a diceless game; lots of people dislike Savage Worlds' mechanics, and the Super Powers addition doesn't fix any of the issues people complain about.  (And to be honest, if I consider SW+Supers, I usually find myself also considering Mutants & Masterminds 3ed.  But that is almost certainly too much crunch for your group)

6) Aberrant - It goes the opposite of Savage Worlds+ Supers, in that it focuses on higher end characters.  And characters do feel high powered!  That said, players might feel somewhat limited by the power options available, and the system doesn't really support mega-inventors.  Still, it uses the ST system and is (I'd argue) lighter than Savage Worlds.

7) Wild Talents - I'd say it's one of the lighter systems, gives players plenty of ability to make their own powers, and has some pretty neat setting books if I'm honest.  That said, the system (ORE) just doesn't do it for me; you need matching pairs or better, and supers have ways to both roll -lots- of dice and "set" the numbers rolled.  And buying a pair of tens (a guaranteed single high success) is so common in the system it's outright boring to me because of it.

Nobilis - A diceless system about "conceptual gods" that might work well as long as you want a "single origin supers" type of game.  For your needs, 3ed is probably going to be mechanically better than 2ed.  But 3ed is a dog turd of layout and graphic design, and 2ed is a borderline work of art.  (And if you're going to consider Nobilis, you should also look into Godbound.  It's an attempt to make a lite version of Exalted using OSR, that can also double as a generic single-origin "conceptual gods" game of supers). 

Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 14, 2022, 09:50:48 PM
Masks by Blacky the Blackball (NOT the Magpie Games one). It's free in PDF, and "at cost" in print. It's an amalgam of FUDGE, FATE, FASERIP, and ICONS. It's basically ICONS, with FASERIP attributes and Ranks (named differently, but they map 1-to-1) and Aspects from FATE. The powers list is pretty comprehensive and detailed, but the overall system is pretty simple. May or may not be to your taste, but it's free, so check it out and see for yourself:
https://gurbintrollgames.wordpress.com/masks/

Thanks for sharing this!  Sounds interesting, and hard to argue with free when it comes to checking something out.

Here is a list of Ten Great Things about CRUSADERS (but hey, I may be biased  )

1. Very fast and easy character creation rules.

2. Character creation combines the fun of random tables with a far greater degree of player-control than in most random-power-tables superheroic RPG.

3. Character definition is very streamlined, with no substats, complex calculations etc. The only scores are the four basic attributes (Physique, Prowess, Alertness, Psyche), a Vitality total, rank, Hero points and, well, that's all (except for some power-specific scores).

4. Original approach to Hero points, Super-strength and other staples of the genre.

5. A strong 1980s feel but with a far simpler & streamlined system than most RPGs of that period. No need to worry about real world physics, movement rates, feet, meters, etc. Combat, for instance, is resolved using subjective "battle zones" (center, perimeter, environs) that make things like ranged powers, area effects etc. extremely easy to handle.

6. A quick combat system, with fixed damage (no rolls) and a "heroic perspective", player-centric approach: if your hero attacks a villain, you make an attack roll; if a villain attacks your hero, you make a defense roll. Everything is symmetrical and the GM may run a battle scene without rolling any dice, allowing her to concentrate on her narrative / descriptive tasks.

7. A very simple yet flexible advancement system allowing heroes to develop power stunts, signature abilities etc. as they increase their rank.

8. Different Motivations for different types of heroes: Defenders, Patriots, Avengers, Vigilantes, Outcasts and Adventurers.

9. A simple, flexible yet robust approach to powers, making it very easy to translate new powers in game terms.

10. A very reasonable price (4.95 $ for a 100-page book) and monthly support, in the form of mini-supplements in PWYW mode.

If you liked CRUSADERS and are interested in the development of the game, please join us at https://crusaders-rpg.freeforums.net/.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 15, 2022, 10:07:22 AM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 14, 2022, 09:50:48 PM
Masks by Blacky the Blackball (NOT the Magpie Games one). It's free in PDF, and "at cost" in print. It's an amalgam of FUDGE, FATE, FASERIP, and ICONS. It's basically ICONS, with FASERIP attributes and Ranks (named differently, but they map 1-to-1) and Aspects from FATE. The powers list is pretty comprehensive and detailed, but the overall system is pretty simple. May or may not be to your taste, but it's free, so check it out and see for yourself:
https://gurbintrollgames.wordpress.com/masks/

Thanks for sharing this!  Sounds interesting, and hard to argue with free when it comes to checking something out.

You're welcome. I actually like it quite a bit, and bought the deadtree version. It's got a few minor issues, but nothing that can't be tweaked. I've created some very memorable and enjoyable characters with this. And since it uses essentially the same stat block as MSH, there are plenty of adventures for it.

Quote from: Minotaurians on July 15, 2022, 12:20:58 PM
Here is a list of Ten Great Things about CRUSADERS (but hey, I may be biased  )

Following up on Minotaurians' comments from someone who is not the author. i've only given the system a quick read-through, so take these all with a grain of salt.

1) Character creation is very fast and easy. It has random-roll powers and point-bought attributes, which might seem odd but seems to work. There are many options for changing or switching out rolls, so it's pretty easy to do so. I'm not fond of random-roll superpowers, but this is probably my favorite among them.

2) Strangely, there are no superhuman attributes allowed - instead, powers like Super Strength give you an "effect level" for subsets of an attribute that are higher than normal. This is like some other systems, like Aberrant's mega-attributes, but I find it counter-intuitive and awkward.

3) I find the core dice mechanic workable but awkward. It is mathematically equivalent to stat + 1d20 vs opposing stat - 10. Hero points would have to change. but I don't find flip-flop of the tens and ones necessary.

4) The main limit is in the set of powers, which is large but not as expansive as some other systems. I think for a long-term game, I'd want more variety, but there is enough to handle plenty of common superheroes.

Hello - just a few clarifications / answers about the CRUSADERS system.

The system is D100-based rather than D20-based for two main reasons: (a) to give it a 1980s 'retro' feel and (most importantly) (b) because (as you've pointed out) percentile dice allow 'flip-flops', which are an important feature of the game system (for Hero points and some powers).

The principle of Heroic Perspective means that all actions are resolved from a player-centric POV, so a single attack only requires a single attack roll (PC attacks NPC) OR defense roll (NPC attacks PC). In Crusaders, the only rolls you have to make are attack rolls, defense rolls, feats-of-strength rolls, the odd Alertness roll in some special situations and, even more rarely, the odd public recognition or luck roll (neither of which uses the table BTW), making dice-rolling far less frequent than in many RPGs.

Heroic Perspective also means that, in most battle scenes, the editor (GM) won't have any dice roll to make, allowing him to focus on storytelling or (say) on doing the required (and ultra-simple) % calculations if the challenge table is not in use.

The lack of "super-attributes" per se is a deliberate design choice; the four attributes used in the game have been specifically designed for this approach to work (that's why, for instance, there is no Strength attribute per se). The "effect level" you mention is only used for Super Strength, the idea being that characters with superhuman strength have a Strength Level far, far higher than their Physique, while for all other characters, "strength" is simply a function of the Physique attribute. Last but not least, keep in mind that, even though "super-attributes" per se are not a part of the system, characters may reach a maximum of 24 in their attributes, making them far, far superior to most normal humans (in this system, the best thugs would have a score of 12-13) so the system works with its own "grammar" - which is simply different from that used by many other game systems but works equally well in play.

That being said, the game system, like all game systems, is based on design choices and assumptions and no single system can be everybody's cup of tea. The basic assumption behind the lack of super-attributes per se is actually very simple: in Crusaders, superhuman abilities are always represented by Powers (and only by Powers - which also include "super-skills" BTW though these are NOT "super skill scores" but unique abilities, again working self-consistently within the specific system paradigm of the game).

Thanks for showing interest in my game.

Thanks for the clarification. Per the original post, for my own usage, I'm not looking for a 1980s comic-book or 1980s game feel in my superhero game - but that shouldn't be a reflection on the quality of the game.

I really like symmetric player-centric die rolls. It's something I loved about the Cinematic Unisystem (the Buffy RPG and others), as well as in Powered-by-the-Apocalypse games like Monster of the Week.

I'd agree that lack of superhuman attributes is in keeping with most comic books - especially if we're only talking about 1980s mainstream superheroes. It means that non-superpowered heroes like Batman can still hold their own when in the middle of action with blatantly superhuman foes.

I also like the attribute scale, which I would compare favorably to ICONS. In Crusaders, average human is 10, while max attribute can go up to 24. In ICONS, average attribute is 3 while max human is 6 and max superhuman is 10. Even though the die roll is smaller in ICONS, those numbers are very close together. An average human has a fair shot (8%) of beating max human, which is well beyond impossible in Crusaders (average human has only a 5% vs a 19, and 0% against 20 or higher).

So in Crusaders, attribute is much more important than it is in ICONS, which has high variance.

You may want to check out Tiny Supers.  The Tiny d6 system is pretty low crunch, but I haven't played it myself.

Quote from: jhkim on July 14, 2022, 09:20:37 PM
There was a recent thread "Superhero RPGs - Looking For Mid-Crunch Recommendations", but this is about low crunch. I've discussed superheroes with my own gaming group, and I'm currently considering more of a rules-light option, but with some caveats.

I want low-crunch, high-drama superheroic action -- but as a caveat, a bunch of people in my group are into diceless games, and it's influenced how we do things. We had a diceless campaign of superheroes in the Old West that was loosely similar to the Amber Diceless approach. Still, we're fine with dice and have played a bunch of dice-using games as well.

Games I've considered:

1) ICONS by Steve Kenson et al - https://stevekenson.com/icons/
2) Truth & Justice by Chad Underkoffler - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/19410/Truth--Justice
3) Crusaders by Olivier Legrand - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/400193/CRUSADERS
4) Masks by Brendan Conway, https://magpiegames.com/products/masks-a-new-generation-hardcoverpdf
5) Savage Worlds + super powers, by Shane Lacy Hensley (more medium-crunch than low-crunch, but I'm still considering)

However, none of them seem like a slam dunk.

Do these posts ever find their answers?
It's like the posts looking for a fantasy game that isn't D&D. And it needs to be low-magic. And it can be OSR if need be, etc.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on July 16, 2022, 04:10:08 AM
Do these posts ever find their answers?
It's like the posts looking for a fantasy game that isn't D&D. And it needs to be low-magic. And it can be OSR if need be, etc.

Sometimes yes.  That said they're less useful as "here's the solution to your problem that will fix everything", and more useful as "here's a bunch of games you may not have heard of and might help you get to where you want to go".   The more a person can narrow down what they want (like the OP was doing), the better the answers are.  It's why nobody's mentioned HERO or Mutants & Masterminds or GURPS; good systems for different things (well, maybe not GURPS for supers), but pretty certain none would be rules lite enough for the OP.

Also, the fantasy game you want is either Barbarians of Lemuria (rules and setting light) or GURPS (rules heavy, but would probably shine if you gut the magic and focused on swords-and-sandals games) or Savage Worlds (middle weight, would probably do well).