Quote from: Lord Rocket;478106IDEA
 
How about, right, race/class as something you multiclass in, rather than just being a Dwarf or whatever? I reckon this would work even gooder with 3e style advancement.

I quite like this. For 3E Unearthed Arcana's racial paragons is basically this (letting you take, say, 3 levels of elf).
 

Quote from: GamerDude;478263But again let me ask "why do we need an artificial construct like 'classes' for a good RPG"? So many systems use an "experience/advancement" system where the rewards are based on role playing/mission accomplishment and the points are spent to improve abilities, skills, etc. Some systems do this and certain abilities/skills/options are restricted by race, or by prerequisites, or by how far they've advanced (how many points they've earned since char creation).
 
This is a system that gives everything mentioned so far as what is wanted... unless the focus is purely for a 3rd/4th ed D&D game mechanic.

All up I think I count about 4 different models of character creation:
*Classes (AD&D, 4th edition D&D),
*Archetypes (Shadowrun, Talislanta, Feng Shui),
*Point buy (GURPS, Hero)
*Lifepaths (GDW games like Traveller; WHFR; Burning Wheel ?).
They all have their pros and cons.
 
A class system is theoretically faster and simpler than point-buy; its easier to determine how difficult a task/adventure is for characters and there are built in safeguards against people just putting all their character points into (say) weapon skills. Less flexible, but also less abuseable. Classes give 'niche protection' to characters as well.
 
In a lifepath system you get terms of service or something, and then get skills off each step. These give you an idea of what your character has done, and give more interesting (read:complicated) advancement schemes, I guess.
 
In an Archetype system, the rulebook basically hands you a finished character. In some cases (Shadowrun) these are prebuilt characters for a point system, in others (Feng Shui, Talislanta) they're really more like classes in that you get a package of abilities without any idea of how they decided to put it together or costed things, though often they advance using points from then on.
 
1st/2nd Ed. D&D (and 4th Edition D&D I guess) are real Class systems. 3E D&D uses the word 'class' alot, but its not really a class system in any classic sense IMHO; its really a lifepath system where you have characters who start as Class X and change to Class Y and then Class Z. 3E doesn't really provided that much simplicity or niche protection, despite its other virtues.

Quote from: noisms;477997I don't mind it. I like the mythical vibe it gives the non-human races, almost as if they're not really real in the same way that humans are. They can only ever be archetypes. Something about that appeals to me.

But it's totally a taste thing.

I've actually never looked at it that way before. Very cool, I'll have to rethink the idea, because, while it's never been a deal-breaker for me, I've never been a fan of race-as-class before. Your view of it actually puts a spin on it that might make it much more tolerable to me, thanks.

Quote from: Lord Rocket;478106IDEA

How about, right, race/class as something you multiclass in, rather than just being a Dwarf or whatever? I reckon this would work even gooder with 3e style advancement.
It'd be a good way to diversify a character without applying a munch of modifiers that don't mean a whole shit of a lot after a while, and would also support racial/cultural proclivities without restricting player choices or whatever. Like, an Elf (or, say, a Finn, if you're going the cultural route) would get magical bonuses, while a Dwarf (Swede?) would be handy with an axe. This would stack with career class bonuses, so a Dwarf Fighter might be better than an Elf Fighter at smashing stuff, but Elfy gets some minor magics to make up for it; not as good as an M-U of the same level, but yeah. Correspondingly, the Dwarf M-U wouldn't get the spell bonuses, but would be more resilient than his Elf counterpart.

If you did use AD&D style multiclassing, this seems like it'd be a better way to restrict demihuman advancement than level limits as well.

Not a bad idea at all. A variant I've thought about before is just making more than one racial class. The base classes are for humans, and then each race could have it's version, depending on the race. Makes it kinda like Talislanta's archetypes, but gives the races a bit more variety, since in my games I don't stress a humanocentric approach as much. Honestly though, while I love playing D&D (and clones), I'm far more likely to run MRQII or Openquest for fantasy now, and if I run D&D it'll be the S&W complete rules without the race as class approach. I wouldn't mind playing in a LL game though.

Since people seem to dig on my idea, I wasted tonight writing up a Dwarf class (I'll probably do an Elf and a Half Orc as well, since those are my favourite species). Bear in mind I haven't played any D&D, of any edition, in years (although all this may prompt me to put a quick game together), but let me know what you guys reckon. Intended for, and mostly based on, AD&D/OSRIC since that's what I have available.

QuoteThe Dwarf

Nature
Dwarfs are creatures of the earth and stone; they prefer to live below ground. As a Dwarf advances in level, his skin grows leathery and tough, and his breathing deepens and becomes more infrequent; he becomes as solid and unyielding as the rock that surrounds him. They are tireless, silent workers, especially in their deep mines, and sullen, though often violent, drunks. They prefer dark, gritty ales and the meat of the denizens of the underearth - a Dwarfish kitchen is a strange, gamey, tangy thing. Colonies near surface dwellers may trade for vegetables, especially turnips and other roots. Dwarfs find it hard to identify with leafy greens.

Prerequisites
A Dwarf must have a CON of 9, and even then is likely to be considered sickly by his fellows.

Advancement

Code Select Expand

Level XP Range HP Title Abilities
1 0-1500 1d10+1 Infravision (60'); Saving Throw Bonuses (rod/staff/wand +1; poison +1); Mad Axemen (proficiency); Enmity (+1); Between The Legs (-1); Architecture (default).
2 1501-3000 2d10+1 Mad Axemen (+1 to-hit).
3 3001-6000 3d10+1 Saving Throw Bonuses (rod/staff/wand +2; poison +1; paralysis +1); Shieldbearer (-1 AC if using a shield)
4 6001-13000 4d10+1 Mad Axemen (+1 to-hit; +1 damage); Between The Legs (-2); Architecture (+1 to all).
5 13001-27500 5d10+1 Infravision (90'); Saving Throw Bonuses (rod/staff/wand +3; poison +2; paralysis +1); Enmity (+2)
6 27501-55000 6d10+1 Mad Axemen (+2 to-hit; +1 damage) Shieldbearer (-1 AC (good!) if using a shield or has armour AC of 4 or heavier; shields no longer contribute towards character encumbrance during combat)
7 55001-110000 7d10+1 Saving Throw Bonuses (rod/staff/wand +4; poison +2; paralysis +2; petrification +1); Between The Legs (-3)
8 110001-225000 8d10+1 Mad Axemen (+2 to-hit; +2 damage); Architecture (+2 to all).
9 225001-450000 9d10+1 Infravision (120'); Saving Throw Bonuses (rod/staff/wand +5; poison +3; paralysis +2; petrification +1); Shieldbearer (-1 AC (good!) if using a shield or has armour AC of 5 or heavier. Treat all armour as 1 encumbrance level less, assuming it is of Dwarfish manufacture); Enmity (+3)
10+ +22500 +3 (absolute, no CON bonus)

Abilities

Infravision: Dwarfs can see in the infra-red spectrum, and gradually become better at this as well.

Saving Throw Bonuses: Dwarfs are not much affected by magic, even if and when they are adept at wielding it themselves, and as creatures of the rock, are generally unafraid of poison, paralysis and petrification.

Mad Axemen: All Dwarfs are proficient with at least one of the following weapons: Axe, Hand, Axe, Battle, Hammer, War, Heavy, Hammer, War, Light, Pick, Military, Heavy, and Pick, Military, Light, which they may choose at first level in addition to his career class selection (all Dwarfs have experience in the mines and are good at swinging things around). No matter what his other class, the Dwarf may always select these weapons as proficiencies at later levels.
Later on, the Dwarf also receives bonuses when using these weapons in combat.
If Weapon Specialisation rules are being used, a Dwarf must choose one of these weapons to specialise in.

Shieldbearers: Dwarfs like to fight defensively, using shields, and are skilled at using shieldwall/phalanx/etc. formations. They also craft very fine armour, and like to protect themselves using heavy chainmail, etc. Dwarfs gain AC bonuses when they either use a shield or wear heavy armour, and are less encumbered by these items (eventually).

Enmity: Dwarfs despise goblinoids, which is to say, goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs, including mixed breeds, and this hatred allows them to strike these creatures more regularly.

Between The Legs: Dwarfs are also skilled at fighting very large creatures, especially ogres, trolls, ogre magi, all kinds of giants, and titans. These creatures take penalties to their to-hit rolls when attempting to strike Dwarfs.

Architecture: When underground, a Dwarf is capable of detecting:
Slopes or gradients (3 in 6);
New/more recent construction (3 in 6);
Sliding or otherwise shifting construction (2 in 6);
Any traps involving the surrounding stonework (1 in 6); and
Their approximate depth underground (1 in 6).
Use of these abilities is made by rolling a d6 and attempting to roll under the provided odds (in brackets). The Dwarf must be within 10' of the feature being detected and must also spend a few moments looking around, but not necessarily more than that.


After 9th Level?
The Dwarf may continue to advance past 9th level for the listed experience cost. They will continue to gain Mad Axemen bonuses at an appropriate rate every second level (so, either +1 to-hit or damage). Shieldbearer continues to advance every third level as well; past 10th level, the Dwarf will gain a further -1 AC bonus (-2 AC total). When the Dwarf qualifies for this bonus at any armour level (ie. AC 9, padded armour), at 21st level, they gain a further -1 AC bonus, all armour, even if it is made by Elfs, is no longer as encumbering and the ability will stop advancing. Lastly, at 10th level the Dwarf will gain their final level in Between the Legs, for a total penalty of -4. The advancement of all other special abilities will terminate.