Quote from: I on November 04, 2023, 01:01:52 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 03, 2023, 11:35:06 PM
I am completely clueless on the issue with the term Naga.

Sounds too much like the "N-word."

To close to the M word:  MAGA

Quote from: Domina on November 07, 2023, 09:23:26 AM

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.

Just what is it about the representations that are the problem? Has that been stated other than the notion of cultural sensitivity? (Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)

Removing things is representation?

And up is down, war is peace, slavery is freedom, etc.  These people see 1984 as an instruction manual...

Greetings!

All of this nonsense is yet another example of why I have always exhorted people to resist this BS loudly, ruthlessly, and at every opportunity. In whatever job, whatever social circle, occasion, and so on--wherever you see it or are engaged by it, fight against it. Make the people that support this BS look like the fucking tyrant morons they are.

Show them no mercy.

Otherwise, we will have more and more, of this BS until the entire society implodes in fire, blood, and chaos. This result is virtually guaranteed, if this BS is not crushed and as soon as possible.

WOTC needs to be the first one thrown into the cleansing fires. *Laughing* Just look at how step by step, they are destroying the D&D brand? Just imagine the social discord they promote, and the sense of bewildering confusion they promote to gamers everywhere? So sad.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Domina on November 07, 2023, 09:23:26 AM

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.

Just what is it about the representations that are the problem? Has that been stated other than the notion of cultural sensitivity? (Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)

Removing things is representation?

The only thing to be removed according to the original item was the "cat subtype". For all I know, the person doing the writing just loves cats.

TBF, a cat lover causing drama over their love of cats would totally track for a cat lover.

The cat subtype isn't being removed.
Rakshasha are demons, both in earnest belief and in Magic: The Gathering.
Because they have fangs and claws, their D&D depiction has them with a tiger's head, and the Magic the Gathering depiction went with that.  They currently are "Creature - Cat Demon".  After the change they will simply be "Creature - Demon".  All of the creatures marked for this change are Rakshasha.

A lot of these subtype changes they have done are something where it seems like they are doing a performative wokeness (in this case, "oh we westerners are so insensitive, assuming that your mythical Hindu demon was a cat because it was portrayed this way, look at us being sensitive..."), and they actually kinda imply that often... but they are also just correcting something.  Rakshasha have never actually been cats in any media except MtG.  If you had a Catbane Sword or something, there's no version of D&D where that would help you against a Rakshasha.

So I'm just not sure if this is actually their politics or not.  Like it could be, but there's enough smokescreen that I wouldn't feel comfortable saying so for sure.

Quote from: Venka on November 08, 2023, 11:31:18 AM
So I'm just not sure if this is actually their politics or not.  Like it could be, but there's enough smokescreen that I wouldn't feel comfortable saying so for sure.

Why do people keep acting like there's some kind of doubt as to their intentions? WotC personally, overtly, and directly say they are doing it for sensitivity in the link I provided at the start of the thread!

Quote from: Venka on November 08, 2023, 11:31:18 AM
they actually kinda imply that often... but they are also just correcting something.

This reads like a contradiction to me. By implying woke reasoning, they are explicitly doing more than "just" correcting something.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 08, 2023, 02:54:12 PM
Why do people keep acting like there's some kind of doubt as to their intentions? WotC personally, overtly, and directly say they are doing it for sensitivity in the link I provided at the start of the thread!

As I stated right before, it's hard to tell the difference between when they claim they are doing it for good boy points, versus when they actually are doing it for their politics.  I'm well aware that Hasbro spends a ton of time and money on doing this crap, and that WotC is all about it, staffed with grim social justice warriors and anti-white activists.

Banning "crusade" is obviously done to push their agenda.  Removing the "cat" subtype seems like they are trying to claim "we are doing the progress".  One of them is done to fuck with you; the other would probably have eventually happened anyway, in a sane world, they just wouldn't be able to sweep into into their political narrative.

Quote from: Venka on November 08, 2023, 11:31:18 AM
The cat subtype isn't being removed.

Oh. I just read it where it said this:

Quote... and we are removing "Cat" as a subtype for the creatures below:

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 08, 2023, 04:57:20 PM

Quote from: Venka on November 08, 2023, 11:31:18 AM
The cat subtype isn't being removed.

Oh. I just read it where it said this:

Quote... and we are removing "Cat" as a subtype for the creatures below:

Right, but the "Cat" subtype is staying for these 260+ cards:
Gatherer Link


So as I said, the Cat subtype is not being removed.  It's being removed from the listed Rakshasa, based on the fact that they are not cats.  Why would I make this distinction?  Probably because the post I was replying to said that they were removing the cat subtype, without further distinction.

Would they do this if they weren't trying to show themselves as just so valorous?  Maybe, maybe not.  Unlike when they banned crusade and jihad, which was definitely done for political reasons. 

So there's four categories of things.
"Do it for a political reason and then claim it was" -> they do this a lot
"Do it for a political reason and then claim it wasn't" -> WotC almost never does this.  They love their social justice crap and they say it's good and don't like you or ban you if you disagree.
"Do it for a nonpolitical reason and then claim it was for a political reason" -> I believe they do this sometimes too.  I think they might be doing that with the Rakshasa, but I'm not sure.
(the fourth thing is not in the scope of this- nonpolitical changes done for nonpolitical reasons are the bulk of all changes to anything, after all)

The term "tribal" has always been dumb, but they are definitely changing it for political reasons.  They've been on about that for awhile, and their other possible names (like the totally-misused "typal") are terrible.  This new one, "kindred", is actually pretty bad as well, as all things that share a type aren't necessarily related at all.  It's a stretch to call all humans "kindred" with each other, it's flat out wrong to say so about "wizards", "druids", etc, all of whom could be different species.  Assuredly a brass golem made by some spellcaster in some world is not "kindred" with a sand golem made by some other spellcaster on a whole ass other universe.

It hasn't been discussed more, but Naga really are a type of serpent-people in their own mythology, and this change seems to me to be some kind of swooning saccharine fake respect for it, I guess?  I mean, this is a game with blood drinking angels, and they certainly aren't apologizing to protestant preachers over it or whatever.  But I haven't looked into that enough maybe something else is up.  But right now that one looks open-and-shut like the tribal case.

Anyway, MtG kinda always sucked, and they have been up to shenanigans with it for a long time.  The ban on crusade, all by itself, is enough reason to never give Hasbro money ever again, it's unprecedented.  I always click on these threads hoping for some outrage red meat, like them really flagellating anyone for being ok with the term, or trying to bring this kind of shit deeper into D&D.  If it looks like I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt it's because I am- but only because I only want to be mad when I should be mad.

Quote from: Venka on November 08, 2023, 06:25:58 PM
Right, but the "Cat" subtype is staying for these 260+ cards:
Gatherer Link
So as I said, the Cat subtype is not being removed.

I was only going on what was said in the linked article so thank you for taking the time to expand on this. I'm still not entirely sure what is going on in part because I don't know MTG beyond my disappointed forays into it many decades ago.

With that said, I don't automatically assume bad faith because of the statement about re-evaluating perspectives. Clearly this is not necessarily the case here.

Thanks for the clarification Venka.