Judging by this article about Magic: The Gathering's upcoming 'sensitivity' changes, D&D will soon see similar revisions to it's established interpretations of naga and rakshasas, assuming they don't get deleted entirely:
https://archive.ph/Ck9Ym
We can also probably expect all references to totems and tribes to evaporate along with shamanism, replaced with god-knows-what rootless, weightless, soulless, marketing-approved terms (Baatezu and Tanar'ri anyone?). We can further surmise that ANY monster that comes from anything other than European sources will be taboo soon as well. Heck, I can easily imagine several European monsters being axed for being proto-Nazi propaganda if you squint at them right.
I'm getting such strong "New Coke" vibes from all this performative mental hygiene, but I wish I could be sure the public will recognize the corn-syrup slop that's about to hit their troughs.
I am completely clueless on the issue with the term Naga. Are they having issue with fantasy creatures from any ethnicity besides whiteys?
A google search seems to indicate that they are folding keywords into other categories.
Naga, naga, naganamatta because I'm naganabuyit
Quote from: Aglondir on November 03, 2023, 11:51:13 PM
Naga, naga, naganamatta because I'm naganabuyit
Well played.
It's like WOTC is running straight into Boring Blandness, as fast as possible.
Queue the popcorn!!!
Rakshasa has long been a favorite of furry-adjacent weirdo gamers, remarkably surviving the fatwa against smoking.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 03, 2023, 11:35:06 PM
I am completely clueless on the issue with the term Naga.
Sounds too much like the "N-word."
Quote from: I on November 04, 2023, 01:01:52 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 03, 2023, 11:35:06 PM
I am completely clueless on the issue with the term Naga.
Sounds too much like the "N-word."
Fucking idiots. Naga is a SE Asian word for cobra. Also, in Sanskrit, it's a type of mythological creature.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 03, 2023, 11:35:06 PM
I am completely clueless on the issue with the term Naga. Are they having issue with fantasy creatures from any ethnicity besides whiteys?
A google search seems to indicate that they are folding keywords into other categories.
Maybe they see it as cultural appropriation by a Western company. Presumably, the end game is to only have European folklore in it, so that the woke can complain that that is problematic too.
Quote from: BadApple on November 04, 2023, 01:31:43 PM
Quote from: I on November 04, 2023, 01:01:52 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 03, 2023, 11:35:06 PM
I am completely clueless on the issue with the term Naga.
Sounds too much like the "N-word."
Fucking idiots. Naga is a SE Asian word for cobra. Also, in Sanskrit, it's a type of mythological creature.
LOL. I don't know if that's the real reason, but it wouldn't surprise me. Remember the hullabaloo a few years ago when some guy said "niggardly" in a public meeting and the SJWs went apeshit? It didn't matter that it's derived from an Old Norse word meaning "stingy," (and that's the context in which it was used) it might hurt some ignorant dumbass' feelings so we shouldn't say it. There were jokes at the time about how we shouldn't use phrases like "a chink in the armor" or "spic and span" either. Witness the multi-page encounter session re the word "minstrel" over on TBP for a similar example.
Quote from: I on November 04, 2023, 01:01:52 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 03, 2023, 11:35:06 PM
I am completely clueless on the issue with the term Naga.
Sounds too much like the "N-word."
Naga, please!
Quote from: Jam The MF on November 04, 2023, 01:06:58 AM
It's like WOTC is running straight into Boring Blandness, as fast as possible.
Excellent.
The best thing for the hobby (not industry) is for WotC to run even faster into the loving woke arms of brand suicide.
Fingers crossed they have a marketing campaign featuring Dylan Mulvaney.
Quote from: Skullking on November 04, 2023, 05:55:06 PM
Fingers crossed they have a marketing campaign featuring Dylan Mulvaney.
They'll have Dylan McVeiny DM'ing a game of D&D with four 12 year old thai lady bois. I'm half joking, but I could see some derivation of that degeneracy in a WotC Twitter campaign.
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.
Just what is it about the representations that are the problem? Has that been stated other than the notion of cultural sensitivity? (Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.
Yes, well, these stupid ideological propaganda battles over the future of glorified brain toys have gotten so lopsided that you have to go to a 'hive of scum and villainy' now to air what should be a reasonable centrist point of view.
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
(Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)
The old definition of 'being sensitive'? Sure, why not, but we're way past those reasonable standards here. Personally, I've leaned left all my life, I don't enjoy having to tell people I used to stand with that they need to calm down and stop fanning the fires of the incoming backlash.
For crying out loud, these fads are calling for cultural segregation, infantilized coddling of ethnic groups, and vengeful double-standards for whose stories are sacred. That's a recipe for creating the very racists they're supposedly trying to stamp out!
We're talking about the fucking naga, an imaginary creature invented by the same culture that came up with the untouchable caste and sati widow burnings! To the moral myopes who think we need to treat India like a helpless victim of history instead of a powerful polity who made good and bad choices like the rest of us, I would ask this: Did you take pleasure in the fact that the Christians lost the Satanic Panic, that we can freely remix Christian mythology in tabletop games and they can't really do anything about it anymore?
Well what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Double post
Double post
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 05, 2023, 07:08:07 AM
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.
Yes, well, these stupid ideological propaganda battles over the future of glorified brain toys have gotten so lopsided that you have to go to a 'hive of scum and villainy' now to air what should be a reasonable centrist point of view.
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
(Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)
The old definition of 'being sensitive'? Sure, why not, but we're way past those reasonable standards here. Personally, I've leaned left all my life, I don't enjoy having to tell people I used to stand with that they need to calm down and stop fanning the fires of the incoming backlash.
For crying out loud, these fads are calling for cultural segregation, infantilized coddling of ethnic groups, and vengeful double-standards for whose stories are sacred. That's a recipe for creating the very racists they're supposedly trying to stamp out!
We're talking about the fucking naga, an imaginary creature invented by the same culture that came up with the untouchable caste and sati widow burnings! To the moral myopes who think we need to treat India like a helpless victim of history instead of a powerful polity who made good and bad choices like the rest of us, I would ask this: Did you take pleasure in the fact that the Christians lost the Satanic Panic, that we can freely remix Christian mythology in tabletop games and they can't really do anything about it anymore?
Well what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Your statements are reasonable, logical, and succinct... and totally futile. If we are to take Kage2020 at his word (which I hesitate to do), he is a foreign academic in VA (in security, so presumably a Beltway Bandit or adjacent). So, one of the rich men north of Richmond, probably "educated" beyond his intelligence, and who has asked similar questions in other threads (and yet keeps asking). He's pretty obviously not asking out of genuine curiosity or out of an attempt to understand (because he's already been answered elsewhere a number of times). So, whether this is an attempt to "pwn the plebs" for his friends or some other duplicitous purpose, don't look to get any actual discussion out of this.
Now, I'm not advocating ignoring him, either. I think your response is the kind of post that others, not in the middle of the argument can learn a lot from. Just don't think you're going to get any legitimate interaction with him... because you'll be sorely disappointed.
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.
Just what is it about the representations that are the problem? Has that been stated other than the notion of cultural sensitivity? (Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)
Forced representation is the problem. Representation merely for representation's sake is the problem. The ridged yet twisted moral code that somehow I'm evil if I'm not constantly making diversity my #1 focus is the problem. The idea that somehow the entire world would be a giant peaceful commune if it wasn't for those evil white colonizers is dumb and punishing normal guys that just happen to be white for the sake of diversity and representation because of this is evil. The open attitude that any more than two white guys in the same place is a KKK meeting and needs to be disrupted is the problem. Out of this, "Diversity," "Inclusion," and "Representation" become a shibboleth of sorts and come with an undertone of violence and hate.
Yes, I said it, the modern leftist ideology of "diversity" is an ideology of hate and violence. There's too much on record with leading lights encouraging violence to think otherwise. There's too much documentation of leftist groups engaging in actual violence against those they perceive as being politically incorrect. As someone who claims to be an academic, your severe lack of due diligence looking into the subject before spouting off is disturbing.
I don't have any issue with anyone looking to have a good time at my table being different than me. Going back all the way tho the early 80s, tables I've played at have always been welcoming to whoever wanted to roll up a PC so long as they were there to play and not disrupt. This is pretty much the deal with the rest of my life too. However, when I'm at the table, I'm there for the game, not to be preached to, admonished for this sins of my forefathers, or educated by leftist nitwits that have never formed a functional organization let alone a health society.
Quote from: BadApple on November 05, 2023, 08:34:59 AM
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.
Just what is it about the representations that are the problem? Has that been stated other than the notion of cultural sensitivity? (Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)
Forced representation is the problem. Representation merely for representation's sake is the problem. The ridged yet twisted moral code that somehow I'm evil if I'm not constantly making diversity my #1 focus is the problem. The idea that somehow the entire world would be a giant peaceful commune if it wasn't for those evil white colonizers is dumb and punishing normal guys that just happen to be white for the sake of diversity and representation because of this is evil. The open attitude that any more than two white guys in the same place is a KKK meeting and needs to be disrupted is the problem. Out of this, "Diversity," "Inclusion," and "Representation" become a shibboleth of sorts and come with an undertone of violence and hate.
Yes, I said it, the modern leftist ideology of "diversity" is an ideology of hate and violence. There's too much on record with leading lights encouraging violence to think otherwise. There's too much documentation of leftist groups engaging in actual violence against those they perceive as being politically incorrect. As someone who claims to be an academic, your severe lack of due diligence looking into the subject before spouting off is disturbing.
I don't have any issue with anyone looking to have a good time at my table being different than me. Going back all the way tho the early 80s, tables I've played at have always been welcoming to whoever wanted to roll up a PC so long as they were there to play and not disrupt. This is pretty much the deal with the rest of my life too. However, when I'm at the table, I'm there for the game, not to be preached to, admonished for this sins of my forefathers, or educated by leftist nitwits that have never formed a functional organization let alone a health society.
Truth. The two major objections are as follows:
- "Representation" is a word in camouflage. The meaning used by those who advocate for it is not the dictionary definition. To the left, representation means making up for perceived past injustices by purposely choosing to omit those with superficial attributes in common (like skin color) with those who are accused of perpetrating them. No one calls for more representation in the NBA or Black Studies departments. It is a concept derived from critical theory, designed for "revenge" for past crimes committed by different people against those who are long gone.
- Like all modern leftist complaints, the core of the complaint is not the purpose of the complaint. Those complaining about representation aren't interested in fairness, equality, or openness (as evinced by their own behavior). All of the complaints are simply vehicles to increase the wealth and power of the complainants. The modern left has no principles, only tactics. So arguments about "representation" are simply vehicles to attack those with perceived power or privilege, which will be abandoned as soon as those complaining have reversed the power structure. The left's flip-flop on free speech is the perfect example.
So, when I hear calls for "representation" in RPGs, I understand what the purpose is. A group of people, most of whom lack talent or who haven't put in the work to improve their craft, want to be gifted power, authority, and respect within the RPG communities and industry that they haven't earned, simply because of their family tree or some other irrelevant quality (who they sleep with). Such calls will not be reciprocated if they ever succeeded in gaining this power; they will happily exclude anyone not in their clique if given what they want. So... no.
Good. Eventually everyone will have to play human fighters only, because there will be nothing else in the book. Finally people will be made to have fun the right way.
Hmm. Might be indicative of trying to bind several cards under a single keyword for balance changes ('why can't Nagas benefit from this card that grants Snake cards +1/+1?').
That being said, OP is probably right and it's yet another step on the march of 'sensitivity'.
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.
The RPG Site is the only RPG forum where you can actually discuss these topics from a perspective other than the only one allowed in RPG.net without being banned (provided that you stay in the context of politics in TTRPGs rather than deviate into full blown politics). So if you came here trying to escape politics you came to the wrong place. The entire point of this site is that you can discuss politics (in TTRPGs), unlike anywhere else.
And as much as I've come to believe that many here have become hypersensitive to these topics, I get the impression from your posts (here and elsewhere in this site) that you're on the opposite side of the spectrum in that regard. To the point of being almost completely oblivious to what's going on in politics, the weaponization of language, and the impact that it's had in gaming and the encroachment of political ideology in TTRPGs.
For example, the term "Cultural Sensitivity" in the current political climate is invariably used as a cudgel to beat others into submission and get them to make changes purportedly on behalf of "marginalized communities" that the people demanding these changes often do not belong to. And even on the rare instances that they do, they don't speak for everyone from those communities, and there are no broad complaints or demands for changes. But rather these changes are pushed on the basis of what the current political zeitgeist has deem "problematic".
For instance, almost nobody from actual Hispanic cultures agrees with the term "Latin-X", yet this term has been pushed full force to replace the correct term "Latino" (male/neutral), or "Latina" (feminine) by "progressives" from the US, to the protests of the vast majority of the Latin American population, except for a handful of Latin Americans born and raised in the US who subscribe to "progressive" ideology. EVERYONE else agrees that this is an imperialistic perversion of the Spanish language, but it gets push regardless for "sensitivity" reasons that are really just about political ideology and the weaponization of language in the guise of being "sensitive".
On the up-side, a couple years from now the Dungeons and Dragons license and associated properties should be available in their entirity for a nickle.
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 05, 2023, 01:39:22 PM
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.
The RPG Site is the only RPG forum where you can actually discuss these topics from a perspective other than the only one allowed in RPG.net without being banned (provided that you stay in the context of politics in TTRPGs rather than deviate into full blown politics). So if you came here trying to escape politics you came to the wrong place. The entire point of this site is that you can discuss politics (in TTRPGs), unlike anywhere else.
And as much as I've come to believe that many here have become hypersensitive to these topics, I get the impression from your posts (here and elsewhere in this site) that you're on the opposite side of the spectrum in that regard. To the point of being almost completely oblivious to what's going on in politics, the weaponization of language, and the impact that it's had in gaming and the encroachment of political ideology in TTRPGs.
For example, the term "Cultural Sensitivity" in the current political climate is invariably used as a cudgel to beat others into submission and get them to make changes purportedly on behalf of "marginalized communities" that the people demanding these changes often do not belong to. And even on the rare instances that they do, they don't speak for everyone from those communities, and there are no broad complaints or demands for changes. But rather these changes are pushed on the basis of what the current political zeitgeist has deem "problematic".
For instance, almost nobody from actual Hispanic cultures agrees with the term "Latin-X", yet this term has been pushed full force to replace the correct term "Latino" (male/neutral), or "Latina" (feminine) by "progressives" from the US, to the protests of the vast majority of the Latin American population, except for a handful of Latin Americans born and raised in the US who subscribe to "progressive" ideology. EVERYONE else agrees that this is an imperialistic perversion of the Spanish language, but it gets push regardless for "sensitivity" reasons that are really just about political ideology and the weaponization of language in the guise of being "sensitive".
You can talk politics in games on Twitter as well thanks to Musk. Go figure, when the leftards transd his son and then turned him into a raving marxist nutjob - his son disowned Musk. At that point, the leftards redpilled the richest man on the planet and they lost their main propaganda piece - twitter.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 05, 2023, 01:32:53 PM
That being said, OP is probably right and it's yet another step on the march of 'sensitivity'.
I mean, they literally say in their own article I linked that they are doing it for sensitivity reasons. Sure, it's always good to reduce the number of creature types in
Magic: The Gathering, but that wasn't their objective here.
Quote:
We are continuously reviewing our card catalogue and finding ways to update the game's language and visual representation with the processes, care, and sensitivity built into modern sets. As such, and to make our game as inclusive and welcoming as possible, we have several changes upcoming.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 05, 2023, 08:03:42 AMIf we are to take Kage2020 at his word (which I hesitate to do), he is a foreign academic in VA (in security, so presumably a Beltway Bandit or adjacent).
I'm sorry that this monkey doesn't dance to the tune that you want. And you know what they say about assumption.
(I used to be a "foreign academic"--I know, two scores against me to some--in forensic anthropology/archaeology, but got out of that gig when I realised that the science kept you at the bottom of the pay pile in favour of people who made other people more money. I still work in higher education, though [so another strike?], and yes that does involve policing/security, but I'm not the subject matter expert--just the person that helps those people. Oh, and I'm white, male, and an American citizen who still uses the nuckin' Oxford Comma. Not sure whether they earn strikes or not.)
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 05, 2023, 08:03:42 AMSo, one of the rich men north of Richmond...
Poor Oliver Anthony.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 05, 2023, 08:03:42 AMHe's pretty obviously not asking out of genuine curiosity or out of an attempt to understand (because he's already been answered elsewhere a number of times). So, whether this is an attempt to "pwn the plebs" for his friends or some other duplicitous purpose, don't look to get any actual discussion out of this.
Or you can take it at face value. I'm absolutely perplexed why mythological creatures are being considered "sensitive" unless, of course, they're being misrepresented in some seemingly offensive way? Hence the fucking question since I know absolutely nothing substantive about
D&D except that, at best, it's "not my cup of tea" and at worst a shit-show of a game.
So perpetuate your lazy left-wing "libtard" nonsense, or right wing "republic*nt", or whatever. I give zero fucks about your virtue signaling whether it's creating safe spaces or wearing a pointy hate-hat. I will, however, call out lazy and bullshit arguments that are not factual and historically inaccurate. Perhaps that's the rub, though? I should just label such arguments as the posting of a nutjob and move on?
On the other hand, if you actually know specifically what it is about these mythological creatures that's the problem? Let's have it.
"Totems and tribes", however, I can totally see how people might be a little bit sensitive around those issues given that First Nations people are at the absolute bottom of the pile when it comes to treatment in the States and given how commonly shit their representations in games are. It's like that film
Maverick without the self-aware humour.
Edit: The irony for me is that I imagine that this is going to be reported.
Quote from: BadApple on November 05, 2023, 08:34:59 AMForced representation is the problem. Representation merely for representation's sake is the problem. The ridged yet twisted moral code that somehow I'm evil if I'm not constantly making diversity my #1 focus is the problem.
That seems... a reasonable perspective.
At the same time I imagine that "you" have to balance it with the kind of lazy argument that says something like, "I don't like that <inclusive> character in my elf-game because they're based upon medieval Europe and that was predominantly white".
You see this in the pushback to the casting of characters that don't fit into the perceived "norm" of readers of, say,
Wheel of Time, just as you see it in Johansson being cast in
Ghost in the Shell. You're screwed whatever choice you make.
Quote from: BadApple on November 05, 2023, 08:34:59 AMYes, I said it, the modern leftist ideology of "diversity" is an ideology of hate and violence. There's too much on record with leading lights encouraging violence to think otherwise. There's too much documentation of leftist groups engaging in actual violence against those they perceive as being politically incorrect. As someone who claims to be an academic, your severe lack of due diligence looking into the subject before spouting off is disturbing.
Nope. I just see the swell of right-wing nonsense in parallel to it.
Also, I'm not an academic and haven't been for quite some time.
Quote from: BadApple on November 05, 2023, 08:34:59 AMHowever, when I'm at the table, I'm there for the game, not to be preached to, admonished for this sins of my forefathers, or educated by leftist nitwits that have never formed a functional organization let alone a health society.
Now that I can agree with. Though, truth be told, try putting Libertarians on an island and see how it works out...
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 06:19:14 PM
Edit: The irony for me is that I imagine that this is going to be reported.
Nah, we don't do that here. That's the other place.
Quote from: Aglondir on November 05, 2023, 07:06:05 PM
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 06:19:14 PM
Edit: The irony for me is that I imagine that this is going to be reported.
Nah, we don't do that here. That's the other place.
Heh. Totally. And they even ban people from talking about games when they're trying to figure out the game in question. Dumb F'ery.
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 05, 2023, 01:39:22 PMThe RPG Site is the only RPG forum where you can actually discuss these topics from a perspective other than the only one allowed in RPG.net without being banned (provided that you stay in the context of politics in TTRPGs rather than deviate into full blown politics). So if you came here trying to escape politics you came to the wrong place. The entire point of this site is that you can discuss politics (in TTRPGs), unlike anywhere else.
Point, and well made with respect to open discussion.
I would say that you have to wade through the right-leaning diatribe as much as on RPG.net you have to wade through the left-leaning diatribe, though.
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 05, 2023, 01:39:22 PMTo the point of being almost completely oblivious to what's going on in politics, the weaponization of language, and the impact that it's had in gaming and the encroachment of political ideology in TTRPGs.
Obviously no-one is going to admit to being oblivious, but in this case I would say that I'm tired of the left-leaning shenanigans in politics and how they apply it as a fulcrum to control people. At the same time, I'm equally tired of the right-wing bullshit and "woe is me-ism" that they have going on in cups. The one thing that I agree with the left on is the danger of "Christo-fascism", which seems to be a new term that polarises the analysis of just how shitty Christianity--and other monotheistic--religions are.
On the other hand, that TTRPGs have become another battlefield? Totally. I just vote with my wallet, which is about the most American thing that you can do.
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 05, 2023, 01:39:22 PMFor instance, almost nobody from actual Hispanic cultures agrees with the term "Latin-X", yet this term has been pushed full force to replace the correct term "Latino" (male/neutral), or "Latina" (feminine) by "progressives" from the US, to the protests of the vast majority of the Latin American population, except for a handful of Latin Americans born and raised in the US who subscribe to "progressive" ideology. EVERYONE else agrees that this is an imperialistic perversion of the Spanish language, but it gets push regardless for "sensitivity" reasons that are really just about political ideology and the weaponization of language in the guise of being "sensitive".
Of those that use it, most are young Hispanic women IIRC. There's probably a message there but otherwise yeah, totally. Latin-Americans don't use the term as is well documented.
In L5R I favored playing Naga. :) Didn't care about Ranged attacks as much as I enjoyed making political and enlightenment decks.
Also I had a portent that it would oppress fragile people decades in the future. So that would be funny, and now it is! ;) That's my excuse for doing anything now: "Because it oppresses you. :)"
Quote from: Opaopajr on November 05, 2023, 08:38:26 PM
In L5R I favored playing Naga. :) Didn't care about Ranged attacks as much as I enjoyed making political and enlightenment decks.
My brother still loves L5R naga, nearly played one in our current campaign. I didn't like them back in the day, but he eventually won me over by pointing out how usefully alien they can be in the setting.
Quote from: Opaopajr on November 05, 2023, 08:38:26 PM
In L5R I favored playing Naga. :) Didn't care about Ranged attacks as much as I enjoyed making political and enlightenment decks.
Also I had a portent that it would oppress fragile people decades in the future. So that would be funny, and now it is! ;) That's my excuse for doing anything now: "Because it oppresses you. :)"
It's a fucking serpent dude. How the fuck is that "oppress[ing] fragile people"?
I mean, seriously!? You're all up in arms about woke-ist BS (which it so often is) but I'm not really getting anything other than "where did the elitist touch me" nonsense.
Again, though, I don't do D&D. Is anyone capable of articulating why this is an issue beyond gesticulating at "woke"?
Quote from: Opaopajr on November 05, 2023, 08:38:26 PM
In L5R I favored playing Naga. :) Didn't care about Ranged attacks as much as I enjoyed making political and enlightenment decks.
How can the. Aga be good at politics if it can't shake anyone's hand?
Quote from: Opaopajr on November 05, 2023, 08:38:26 PM
In L5R I favored playing Naga. :) Didn't care about Ranged attacks as much as I enjoyed making political and enlightenment decks.
How can the Naga be good at politics if it can't shake anyone's hand?
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 09:16:29 PM
I mean, seriously!? You're all up in arms about woke-ist BS (which it so often is) but I'm not really getting anything other than "where did the elitist touch me" nonsense.
I really don't understand what's going on here. Did anyone actually read the official statement I linked in the first post, the one issued by WotC themselves? There's no ambiguity.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on November 06, 2023, 02:33:58 AM
How can the Naga be good at politics if it can't shake anyone's hand?
Heh, L5R naga have hands. They're more like snake centaurs.
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 06:59:38 PM
At the same time I imagine that "you" have to balance it with the kind of lazy argument that says something like, "I don't like that <inclusive> character in my elf-game because they're based upon medieval Europe and that was predominantly white".
This may be a lazy argument, but it's also a straw man -- and shooting down a strawman is even lazier. People do argue against race-
swapping known characters, or making a known setting
predominantly some other ethnicity. But of course, that's entirely different.
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 06:19:14 PM
"Totems and tribes", however, I can totally see how people might be a little bit sensitive around those issues given that First Nations people are at the absolute bottom of the pile when it comes to treatment in the States and given how commonly shit their representations in games are. It's like that film Maverick without the self-aware humour.
This is where you lost me. Race-based "sensitivity" is just another word for bigotry.
Rakshasas are demons or evil spirits to Vedic myth, and while they are shapeshifters, their natural form isn't a tiger-man. So they are redrawing them and removing the subtype "Cat" from the Rakshasa cards.
Naga are divine beings, frequently benevolent, not REH's serpentmen. So anything with the "Naga" subtype is being changed to "Snake".
Why, because some white people in Seattle think people in India give a flying fuck about how MtG represents monsters that are in no way related, but kinda sorta inspired by their myths.
How MtG was using "Tribe" was silly anyway, that should have been changed, just because it isn't English.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on November 06, 2023, 02:32:38 AM
Quote from: Opaopajr on November 05, 2023, 08:38:26 PM
In L5R I favored playing Naga. :) Didn't care about Ranged attacks as much as I enjoyed making political and enlightenment decks.
How can the. Aga be good at politics if it can't shake anyone's hand?
They can kiss babies. :P
Rakshasas hands are backwards (opposable thumb is on other side of the palm), that means they have to use video game controllers backwards! :-[ This is ableist bigotry! Unless it was meant to oppress rakshasas from competing on e-sports leader boards... :o It's been a humanist plot from the beginning! 8)
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 09:16:29 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr on November 05, 2023, 08:38:26 PM
In L5R I favored playing Naga. :) Didn't care about Ranged attacks as much as I enjoyed making political and enlightenment decks.
Also I had a portent that it would oppress fragile people decades in the future. So that would be funny, and now it is! ;) That's my excuse for doing anything now: "Because it oppresses you. :)"
It's a fucking serpent dude. How the fuck is that "oppress[ing] fragile people"?
I mean, seriously!? You're all up in arms about woke-ist BS (which it so often is) but I'm not really getting anything other than "where did the elitist touch me" nonsense.
Again, though, I don't do D&D. Is anyone capable of articulating why this is an issue beyond gesticulating at "woke"?
Welcome to being a right wing bigot. Please give us a shipping address for your "Make America Great Again" hat, Bible, and subscriptions to various forms of alt media.
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 09:16:29 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr on November 05, 2023, 08:38:26 PM
In L5R I favored playing Naga. :) Didn't care about Ranged attacks as much as I enjoyed making political and enlightenment decks.
Also I had a portent that it would oppress fragile people decades in the future. So that would be funny, and now it is! ;) That's my excuse for doing anything now: "Because it oppresses you. :)"
It's a fucking serpent dude. How the fuck is that "oppress[ing] fragile people"?
I mean, seriously!? You're all up in arms about woke-ist BS (which it so often is) but I'm not really getting anything other than "where did the elitist touch me" nonsense.
Again, though, I don't do D&D. Is anyone capable of articulating why this is an issue beyond gesticulating at "woke"?
Oh, and in case some of the layers of my joke in my previous post aren't clear.
1. Much of this kind of woke nonsense doesn't make sense.
2. Asking to have it clarified is proof of your bigotry to those of the far left ideological bent.
3. You can never take a neutral stance. You are either willing to lick boots no matter what the demand or you will be persecuted.
4. There is no rational exploration of the issues with those on the left. You will accept the ridged yet always changing set of boundaries set for us or you are a bigot.
Please keep this in mind when you look at other items like this. Many posters here have been beat down with this stuff for about a decade now and we're a little defensive when we feel like we are being attacked or dismissed over this stuff.
At this point, I think they've moved past even making bad sense, and are just removing stuff because they're scraping the bottom of the Jar of Offense.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 06, 2023, 03:51:03 PM
At this point, I think they've moved past even making bad sense, and are just removing stuff because they're scraping the bottom of the Jar of Offense.
Dude, that was years ago. Now it's a full on "dance, monkey, dance" thing just to see how far afield they can go and get the dumb asses to follow. I mean I get called racist because I use mayonnaise in some of my cooking and somehow that's a micro-aggression against black people.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 06, 2023, 03:51:03 PM
At this point, I think they've moved past even making bad sense, and are just removing stuff because they're scraping the bottom of the Jar of Offense.
The guillotine is still sharp and ready, which creates it's own kind of demand for customers. There is no bottom, until there is no one to pull the lever and no one to be under the blade.
:P Mmm, mayonnaise... And sometimes I sprinkle dried fruit on my salad. ;D
I look forward to when Hasbeen/Wotzi gets down to correcting the Overbearing rules. :) I am curious if some groups will get an advantage for being part of the -Archy. ;D
Quote from: BadApple on November 06, 2023, 04:12:53 PM
Dude, that was years ago. Now it's a full on "dance, monkey, dance" thing just to see how far afield they can go and get the dumb asses to follow. I mean I get called racist because I use mayonnaise in some of my cooking and somehow that's a micro-aggression against black people.
I've seen some pretty absurd things in this world, but man, that's gotta be a top 1% insanity there.
Quote from: Venka on November 07, 2023, 12:37:47 AM
Quote from: BadApple on November 06, 2023, 04:12:53 PM
Dude, that was years ago. Now it's a full on "dance, monkey, dance" thing just to see how far afield they can go and get the dumb asses to follow. I mean I get called racist because I use mayonnaise in some of my cooking and somehow that's a micro-aggression against black people.
I've seen some pretty absurd things in this world, but man, that's gotta be a top 1% insanity there.
Just google "is mayonnaise racist?"
Quote from: BadApple on November 07, 2023, 12:45:17 AM
Just google "is mayonnaise racist?"
I mean
ok but that's a game made famous on 4chan years ago. You just google "<thing X> racist" and the hits keep coming.
The first result has the amazing quote "The inexorable rise of identity condiments has led to hard times for the most American of foodstuffs,"
The article appears to be critical of this, but then immediately blames "old, white men". It's pretty great.
But you can do this with
anything. You get hits for "is the climate racist", "geometry racist" has a top result is from scientific american attacking geometry, followed by a blog that I'm not clicking on but appears to be earnest, followed by an attack on axioms (they're racist too). Photography, birds, dogs (
In essence, in post-apartheid South Africa, security dogs are more or less the unnoticed weapons of a racial cold war; they are white people's...), cycling has a "racism problem", and I tried "penmanship racist", which google helpfully made the first article about how "standard English " is racist, followed by the ADL trying to cancel runic alphabet (talk about a forced result!), followed by "teachers have a racial bias in grading" (appears to have nothing to do with penmanship), followed by something from a college called "Linguistic White Supremacy".
I mean it is hilarious and also sad- I was mostly impressed that the mayonnaise-racist thing happened in meatspace, instead of as the result of some tragic joke of an algorithm that replaced the futuristic search engines we used to have, before everything became terrifying propaganda instead.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 05, 2023, 07:08:07 AM
Well what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Problem is these woke cultists always believe that the rules do not apply to them because they are so virtuous.
wotc Slaps WACIST! on all things pre 5e and then turns around and puts out the offensive Radiant Citadel because they fill their minority bingo card. Nothing ever changes.
Quote from: Omega on November 07, 2023, 02:04:05 AM
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 05, 2023, 07:08:07 AM
Well what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Problem is these woke cultists always believe that the rules do not apply to them because they are so virtuous.
wotc Slaps WACIST! on all things pre 5e and then turns around and puts out the offensive Radiant Citadel because they fill their minority bingo card. Nothing ever changes.
The good thing about role playing games are that you can make your own content and world and not give WotC a dime. If you want to hurt WotC, print out character sheets, share your books for spells, teach players the rules and play the game all the while reducing the money that WotC takes in.
Quote from: crkrueger on November 06, 2023, 08:18:32 AM
How MtG was using "Tribe" was silly anyway, that should have been changed, just because it isn't English.
We can't use Latin derived words now?
Quote from: zincmoat on November 07, 2023, 03:50:12 AM
Quote from: crkrueger on November 06, 2023, 08:18:32 AM
How MtG was using "Tribe" was silly anyway, that should have been changed, just because it isn't English.
We can't use Latin derived words now?
If I have 12 different kinds of Angel cards in my deck, that's not a "Tribe", even if they all have the keyword Angel.
Quote from: Venka on November 07, 2023, 01:03:26 AM
Quote from: BadApple on November 07, 2023, 12:45:17 AM
Just google "is mayonnaise racist?"
I mean ok but that's a game made famous on 4chan years ago. You just google "<thing X> racist" and the hits keep coming.
The first result has the amazing quote "The inexorable rise of identity condiments has led to hard times for the most American of foodstuffs,"
The article appears to be critical of this, but then immediately blames "old, white men". It's pretty great.
But you can do this with anything. You get hits for "is the climate racist", "geometry racist" has a top result is from scientific american attacking geometry, followed by a blog that I'm not clicking on but appears to be earnest, followed by an attack on axioms (they're racist too). Photography, birds, dogs (In essence, in post-apartheid South Africa, security dogs are more or less the unnoticed weapons of a racial cold war; they are white people's...), cycling has a "racism problem", and I tried "penmanship racist", which google helpfully made the first article about how "standard English " is racist, followed by the ADL trying to cancel runic alphabet (talk about a forced result!), followed by "teachers have a racial bias in grading" (appears to have nothing to do with penmanship), followed by something from a college called "Linguistic White Supremacy".
I mean it is hilarious and also sad- I was mostly impressed that the mayonnaise-racist thing happened in meatspace, instead of as the result of some tragic joke of an algorithm that replaced the futuristic search engines we used to have, before everything became terrifying propaganda instead.
Mayonnaise being racist was a very real RL and in person conversation with a friend of mine. (Ex friend now.) That was a "WTF, are you serious?" moment for me.
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.
Just what is it about the representations that are the problem? Has that been stated other than the notion of cultural sensitivity? (Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)
Removing things is representation?
Quote from: I on November 04, 2023, 01:01:52 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 03, 2023, 11:35:06 PM
I am completely clueless on the issue with the term Naga.
Sounds too much like the "N-word."
To close to the M word: MAGA
Quote from: Domina on November 07, 2023, 09:23:26 AM
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.
Just what is it about the representations that are the problem? Has that been stated other than the notion of cultural sensitivity? (Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)
Removing things is representation?
And up is down, war is peace, slavery is freedom, etc. These people see 1984 as an instruction manual...
Greetings!
All of this nonsense is yet another example of why I have always exhorted people to resist this BS loudly, ruthlessly, and at every opportunity. In whatever job, whatever social circle, occasion, and so on--wherever you see it or are engaged by it, fight against it. Make the people that support this BS look like the fucking tyrant morons they are.
Show them no mercy.
Otherwise, we will have more and more, of this BS until the entire society implodes in fire, blood, and chaos. This result is virtually guaranteed, if this BS is not crushed and as soon as possible.
WOTC needs to be the first one thrown into the cleansing fires. *Laughing* Just look at how step by step, they are destroying the D&D brand? Just imagine the social discord they promote, and the sense of bewildering confusion they promote to gamers everywhere? So sad.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Domina on November 07, 2023, 09:23:26 AM
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.
Just what is it about the representations that are the problem? Has that been stated other than the notion of cultural sensitivity? (Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)
Removing things is representation?
The only thing to be removed according to the original item was the "cat subtype". For all I know, the person doing the writing just loves cats.
TBF, a cat lover causing drama over their love of cats would totally track for a cat lover. ;)
The cat subtype isn't being removed.
Rakshasha are demons, both in earnest belief and in Magic: The Gathering.
Because they have fangs and claws, their D&D depiction has them with a tiger's head, and the Magic the Gathering depiction went with that. They currently are "Creature - Cat Demon". After the change they will simply be "Creature - Demon". All of the creatures marked for this change are Rakshasha.
A lot of these subtype changes they have done are something where it seems like they are doing a performative wokeness (in this case, "oh we westerners are so insensitive, assuming that your mythical Hindu demon was a cat because it was portrayed this way, look at us being sensitive..."), and they actually kinda imply that often... but they are also just correcting something. Rakshasha have never actually been cats in any media except MtG. If you had a Catbane Sword or something, there's no version of D&D where that would help you against a Rakshasha.
So I'm just not sure if this is actually their politics or not. Like it could be, but there's enough smokescreen that I wouldn't feel comfortable saying so for sure.
Quote from: Venka on November 08, 2023, 11:31:18 AM
So I'm just not sure if this is actually their politics or not. Like it could be, but there's enough smokescreen that I wouldn't feel comfortable saying so for sure.
Why do people keep acting like there's some kind of doubt as to their intentions?
WotC personally, overtly, and directly say they are doing it for sensitivity in the link I provided at the start of the thread!
Quote from: Venka on November 08, 2023, 11:31:18 AM
they actually kinda imply that often... but they are also just correcting something.
This reads like a contradiction to me. By implying woke reasoning, they are explicitly doing
more than "just" correcting something.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 08, 2023, 02:54:12 PM
Why do people keep acting like there's some kind of doubt as to their intentions? WotC personally, overtly, and directly say they are doing it for sensitivity in the link I provided at the start of the thread!
As I stated right before, it's hard to tell the difference between when they claim they are doing it for good boy points, versus when they actually are doing it for their politics. I'm well aware that Hasbro spends a ton of time and money on doing this crap, and that WotC is all about it, staffed with grim social justice warriors and anti-white activists.
Banning "crusade" is obviously done to push their agenda. Removing the "cat" subtype seems like they are trying to claim "we are doing the progress". One of them is done to fuck with you; the other would probably have eventually happened anyway, in a sane world, they just wouldn't be able to sweep into into their political narrative.
Quote from: Venka on November 08, 2023, 11:31:18 AM
The cat subtype isn't being removed.
Oh. I just read it where it said this:
Quote... and we are removing "Cat" as a subtype for the creatures below:
Quote from: Kage2020 on November 08, 2023, 04:57:20 PM
Quote from: Venka on November 08, 2023, 11:31:18 AM
The cat subtype isn't being removed.
Oh. I just read it where it said this:
Quote... and we are removing "Cat" as a subtype for the creatures below:
Right, but the "Cat" subtype is staying for these 260+ cards:
Gatherer Link (https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&subtype=+%5B%22Cat%22%5D)
So as I said, the Cat subtype is not being removed. It's being removed
from the listed Rakshasa, based on the fact that they are not cats. Why would I make this distinction? Probably because the post I was replying to said that they were removing the cat subtype, without further distinction.
Would they do this if they weren't trying to show themselves as just
so valorous? Maybe, maybe not. Unlike when they banned crusade and jihad, which was definitely done for political reasons.
So there's four categories of things.
"Do it for a political reason and then claim it was" -> they do this a lot
"Do it for a political reason and then claim it wasn't" -> WotC
almost never does this. They love their social justice crap and they say it's good and don't like you or ban you if you disagree.
"Do it for a nonpolitical reason and then claim it was for a political reason" -> I believe they do this sometimes too. I think they might be doing that with the Rakshasa, but I'm not sure.
(the fourth thing is not in the scope of this- nonpolitical changes done for nonpolitical reasons are the bulk of all changes to anything, after all)
The term "tribal" has always been dumb, but they are
definitely changing it for political reasons. They've been on about that for awhile, and their other possible names (like the totally-misused "typal") are terrible. This new one, "kindred", is actually pretty bad as well, as all things that share a type aren't necessarily related at all. It's a stretch to call all humans "kindred" with each other, it's flat out wrong to say so about "wizards", "druids", etc, all of whom could be different species. Assuredly a brass golem made by some spellcaster in some world is not "kindred" with a sand golem made by some other spellcaster on a whole ass other universe.
It hasn't been discussed more, but Naga really are a type of serpent-people in their own mythology, and this change seems to me to be some kind of swooning saccharine fake respect for it, I guess? I mean, this is a game with blood drinking angels, and they certainly aren't apologizing to protestant preachers over it or whatever. But I haven't looked into that enough maybe something else is up. But right now that one looks open-and-shut like the tribal case.
Anyway, MtG kinda always sucked, and they have been up to shenanigans with it for a long time. The ban on crusade, all by itself, is enough reason to never give Hasbro money ever again, it's unprecedented. I always click on these threads hoping for some outrage red meat, like them really flagellating anyone for being ok with the term, or trying to bring this kind of shit deeper into D&D. If it looks like I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt it's because I am- but only because I only want to be mad when I should be mad.
Quote from: Venka on November 08, 2023, 06:25:58 PM
Right, but the "Cat" subtype is staying for these 260+ cards:
Gatherer Link (https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&subtype=+%5B%22Cat%22%5D)
So as I said, the Cat subtype is not being removed.
I was only going on what was said in the linked article so thank you for taking the time to expand on this. I'm still not entirely sure what is going on in part because I don't know MTG beyond my disappointed forays into it many decades ago.
With that said, I don't automatically assume bad faith because of the statement about re-evaluating perspectives. Clearly this is not necessarily the case here.
Thanks for the clarification Venka.