This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.

Just what is it about the representations that are the problem? Has that been stated other than the notion of cultural sensitivity? (Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.

Yes, well, these stupid ideological propaganda battles over the future of glorified brain toys have gotten so lopsided that you have to go to a 'hive of scum and villainy' now to air what should be a reasonable centrist point of view.

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
(Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)

The old definition of 'being sensitive'? Sure, why not, but we're way past those reasonable standards here. Personally, I've leaned left all my life, I don't enjoy having to tell people I used to stand with that they need to calm down and stop fanning the fires of the incoming backlash.

For crying out loud, these fads are calling for cultural segregation, infantilized coddling of ethnic groups, and vengeful double-standards for whose stories are sacred. That's a recipe for creating the very racists they're supposedly trying to stamp out!

We're talking about the fucking naga, an imaginary creature invented by the same culture that came up with the untouchable caste and sati widow burnings! To the moral myopes who think we need to treat India like a helpless victim of history instead of a powerful polity who made good and bad choices like the rest of us, I would ask this: Did you take pleasure in the fact that the Christians lost the Satanic Panic, that we can freely remix Christian mythology in tabletop games and they can't really do anything about it anymore?

Well what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Double post

Double post

Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 05, 2023, 07:08:07 AM

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.

Yes, well, these stupid ideological propaganda battles over the future of glorified brain toys have gotten so lopsided that you have to go to a 'hive of scum and villainy' now to air what should be a reasonable centrist point of view.

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
(Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)

The old definition of 'being sensitive'? Sure, why not, but we're way past those reasonable standards here. Personally, I've leaned left all my life, I don't enjoy having to tell people I used to stand with that they need to calm down and stop fanning the fires of the incoming backlash.

For crying out loud, these fads are calling for cultural segregation, infantilized coddling of ethnic groups, and vengeful double-standards for whose stories are sacred. That's a recipe for creating the very racists they're supposedly trying to stamp out!

We're talking about the fucking naga, an imaginary creature invented by the same culture that came up with the untouchable caste and sati widow burnings! To the moral myopes who think we need to treat India like a helpless victim of history instead of a powerful polity who made good and bad choices like the rest of us, I would ask this: Did you take pleasure in the fact that the Christians lost the Satanic Panic, that we can freely remix Christian mythology in tabletop games and they can't really do anything about it anymore?

Well what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Your statements are reasonable, logical, and succinct... and totally futile.  If we are to take Kage2020 at his word (which I hesitate to do), he is a foreign academic in VA (in security, so presumably a Beltway Bandit or adjacent).  So, one of the rich men north of Richmond, probably "educated" beyond his intelligence, and who has asked similar questions in other threads (and yet keeps asking).  He's pretty obviously not asking out of genuine curiosity or out of an attempt to understand (because he's already been answered elsewhere a number of times).  So, whether this is an attempt to "pwn the plebs" for his friends or some other duplicitous purpose, don't look to get any actual discussion out of this.

Now, I'm not advocating ignoring him, either.  I think your response is the kind of post that others, not in the middle of the argument can learn a lot from.  Just don't think you're going to get any legitimate interaction with him... because you'll be sorely disappointed.

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.

Just what is it about the representations that are the problem? Has that been stated other than the notion of cultural sensitivity? (Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)

Forced representation is the problem.  Representation merely for representation's sake is the problem.  The ridged yet twisted moral code that somehow I'm evil if I'm not constantly making diversity my #1 focus is the problem.  The idea that somehow the entire world would be a giant peaceful commune if it wasn't for those evil white colonizers is dumb and punishing normal guys that just happen to be white for the sake of diversity and representation because of this is evil.  The open attitude that any more than two white guys in the same place is a KKK meeting and needs to be disrupted is the problem.  Out of this, "Diversity," "Inclusion," and "Representation" become a shibboleth of sorts and come with an undertone of violence and hate.

Yes, I said it, the modern leftist ideology of "diversity" is an ideology of hate and violence.  There's too much on record with leading lights encouraging violence to think otherwise.  There's too much documentation of leftist groups engaging in actual violence against those they perceive as being politically incorrect.  As someone who claims to be an academic, your severe lack of due diligence looking into the subject before spouting off is disturbing.

I don't have any issue with anyone looking to have a good time at my table being different than me.  Going back all the way tho the early 80s, tables I've played at have always been welcoming to whoever wanted to roll up a PC so long as they were there to play and not disrupt.  This is pretty much the deal with the rest of my life too.  However, when I'm at the table, I'm there for the game, not to be preached to, admonished for this sins of my forefathers, or educated by leftist nitwits that have never formed a functional organization let alone a health society.

Quote from: BadApple on November 05, 2023, 08:34:59 AM

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.

Just what is it about the representations that are the problem? Has that been stated other than the notion of cultural sensitivity? (Not that being sensitive should be maligned.)

Forced representation is the problem.  Representation merely for representation's sake is the problem.  The ridged yet twisted moral code that somehow I'm evil if I'm not constantly making diversity my #1 focus is the problem.  The idea that somehow the entire world would be a giant peaceful commune if it wasn't for those evil white colonizers is dumb and punishing normal guys that just happen to be white for the sake of diversity and representation because of this is evil.  The open attitude that any more than two white guys in the same place is a KKK meeting and needs to be disrupted is the problem.  Out of this, "Diversity," "Inclusion," and "Representation" become a shibboleth of sorts and come with an undertone of violence and hate.

Yes, I said it, the modern leftist ideology of "diversity" is an ideology of hate and violence.  There's too much on record with leading lights encouraging violence to think otherwise.  There's too much documentation of leftist groups engaging in actual violence against those they perceive as being politically incorrect.  As someone who claims to be an academic, your severe lack of due diligence looking into the subject before spouting off is disturbing.

I don't have any issue with anyone looking to have a good time at my table being different than me.  Going back all the way tho the early 80s, tables I've played at have always been welcoming to whoever wanted to roll up a PC so long as they were there to play and not disrupt.  This is pretty much the deal with the rest of my life too.  However, when I'm at the table, I'm there for the game, not to be preached to, admonished for this sins of my forefathers, or educated by leftist nitwits that have never formed a functional organization let alone a health society.

Truth.  The two major objections are as follows:

• "Representation" is a word in camouflage.  The meaning used by those who advocate for it is not the dictionary definition.  To the left, representation means making up for perceived past injustices by purposely choosing to omit those with superficial attributes in common (like skin color) with those who are accused of perpetrating them.  No one calls for more representation in the NBA or Black Studies departments.  It is a concept derived from critical theory, designed for "revenge" for past crimes committed by different people against those who are long gone.
• Like all modern leftist complaints, the core of the complaint is not the purpose of the complaint.  Those complaining about representation aren't interested in fairness, equality, or openness (as evinced by their own behavior).  All of the complaints are simply vehicles to increase the wealth and power of the complainants.  The modern left has no principles, only tactics.  So arguments about "representation" are simply vehicles to attack those with perceived power or privilege, which will be abandoned as soon as those complaining have reversed the power structure.  The left's flip-flop on free speech is the perfect example.

So, when I hear calls for "representation" in RPGs, I understand what the purpose is.  A group of people, most of whom lack talent or who haven't put in the work to improve their craft, want to be gifted power, authority, and respect within the RPG communities and industry that they haven't earned, simply because of their family tree or some other irrelevant quality (who they sleep with).  Such calls will not be reciprocated if they ever succeeded in gaining this power; they will happily exclude anyone not in their clique if given what they want.  So... no.

Good. Eventually everyone will have to play human fighters only, because there will be nothing else in the book. Finally people will be made to have fun the right way.

Hmm. Might be indicative of trying to bind several cards under a single keyword for balance changes ('why can't Nagas benefit from this card that grants Snake cards +1/+1?').

That being said, OP is probably right and it's yet another step on the march of 'sensitivity'.

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.

The RPG Site is the only RPG forum where you can actually discuss these topics from a perspective other than the only one allowed in RPG.net without being banned (provided that you stay in the context of politics in TTRPGs rather than deviate into full blown politics). So if you came here trying to escape politics you came to the wrong place. The entire point of this site is that you can discuss politics (in TTRPGs), unlike anywhere else.

And as much as I've come to believe that many here have become hypersensitive to these topics, I get the impression from your posts (here and elsewhere in this site) that you're on the opposite side of the spectrum in that regard. To the point of being almost completely oblivious to what's going on in politics, the weaponization of language, and the impact that it's had in gaming and the encroachment of political ideology in TTRPGs.

For example, the term "Cultural Sensitivity" in the current political climate is invariably used as a cudgel to beat others into submission and get them to make changes purportedly on behalf of "marginalized communities" that the people demanding these changes often do not belong to. And even on the rare instances that they do, they don't speak for everyone from those communities, and there are no broad complaints or demands for changes. But rather these changes are pushed on the basis of what the current political zeitgeist has deem "problematic".

For instance, almost nobody from actual Hispanic cultures agrees with the term "Latin-X", yet this term has been pushed full force to replace the correct term "Latino" (male/neutral), or "Latina" (feminine) by "progressives" from the US, to the protests of the vast majority of the Latin American population, except for a handful of Latin Americans born and raised in the US who subscribe to "progressive" ideology. EVERYONE else agrees that this is an imperialistic perversion of the Spanish language, but it gets push regardless for "sensitivity" reasons that are really just about political ideology and the weaponization of language in the guise of being "sensitive".

On the up-side, a couple years from now the Dungeons and Dragons license and associated properties should be available in their entirity for a nickle.

Quote from: VisionStorm on November 05, 2023, 01:39:22 PM

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 05, 2023, 12:10:36 AM
This is truly the yin to RPG.net's yang, or vice versa.

The RPG Site is the only RPG forum where you can actually discuss these topics from a perspective other than the only one allowed in RPG.net without being banned (provided that you stay in the context of politics in TTRPGs rather than deviate into full blown politics). So if you came here trying to escape politics you came to the wrong place. The entire point of this site is that you can discuss politics (in TTRPGs), unlike anywhere else.

And as much as I've come to believe that many here have become hypersensitive to these topics, I get the impression from your posts (here and elsewhere in this site) that you're on the opposite side of the spectrum in that regard. To the point of being almost completely oblivious to what's going on in politics, the weaponization of language, and the impact that it's had in gaming and the encroachment of political ideology in TTRPGs.

For example, the term "Cultural Sensitivity" in the current political climate is invariably used as a cudgel to beat others into submission and get them to make changes purportedly on behalf of "marginalized communities" that the people demanding these changes often do not belong to. And even on the rare instances that they do, they don't speak for everyone from those communities, and there are no broad complaints or demands for changes. But rather these changes are pushed on the basis of what the current political zeitgeist has deem "problematic".

For instance, almost nobody from actual Hispanic cultures agrees with the term "Latin-X", yet this term has been pushed full force to replace the correct term "Latino" (male/neutral), or "Latina" (feminine) by "progressives" from the US, to the protests of the vast majority of the Latin American population, except for a handful of Latin Americans born and raised in the US who subscribe to "progressive" ideology. EVERYONE else agrees that this is an imperialistic perversion of the Spanish language, but it gets push regardless for "sensitivity" reasons that are really just about political ideology and the weaponization of language in the guise of being "sensitive".

You can talk politics in games on Twitter as well thanks to Musk.  Go figure, when the leftards transd his son and then turned him into a raving marxist nutjob - his son disowned Musk.  At that point, the leftards redpilled the richest man on the planet and they lost their main propaganda piece - twitter.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 05, 2023, 01:32:53 PM
That being said, OP is probably right and it's yet another step on the march of 'sensitivity'.

I mean, they literally say in their own article I linked that they are doing it for sensitivity reasons. Sure, it's always good to reduce the number of creature types in Magic: The Gathering, but that wasn't their objective here.

Quote:

We are continuously reviewing our card catalogue and finding ways to update the game's language and visual representation with the processes, care, and sensitivity built into modern sets. As such, and to make our game as inclusive and welcoming as possible, we have several changes upcoming.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 05, 2023, 08:03:42 AMIf we are to take Kage2020 at his word (which I hesitate to do), he is a foreign academic in VA (in security, so presumably a Beltway Bandit or adjacent).

I'm sorry that this monkey doesn't dance to the tune that you want. And you know what they say about assumption.

(I used to be a "foreign academic"--I know, two scores against me to some--in forensic anthropology/archaeology, but got out of that gig when I realised that the science kept you at the bottom of the pay pile in favour of people who made other people more money. I still work in higher education, though [so another strike?], and yes that does involve policing/security, but I'm not the subject matter expert--just the person that helps those people. Oh, and I'm white, male, and an American citizen who still uses the nuckin' Oxford Comma. Not sure whether they earn strikes or not.)

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 05, 2023, 08:03:42 AMSo, one of the rich men north of Richmond...

Poor Oliver Anthony.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 05, 2023, 08:03:42 AMHe's pretty obviously not asking out of genuine curiosity or out of an attempt to understand (because he's already been answered elsewhere a number of times).  So, whether this is an attempt to "pwn the plebs" for his friends or some other duplicitous purpose, don't look to get any actual discussion out of this.

Or you can take it at face value. I'm absolutely perplexed why mythological creatures are being considered "sensitive" unless, of course, they're being misrepresented in some seemingly offensive way? Hence the fucking question since I know absolutely nothing substantive about D&D except that, at best, it's "not my cup of tea" and at worst a shit-show of a game.

So perpetuate your lazy left-wing "libtard" nonsense, or right wing "republic*nt", or whatever. I give zero fucks about your virtue signaling whether it's creating safe spaces or wearing a pointy hate-hat. I will, however, call out lazy and bullshit arguments that are not factual and historically inaccurate. Perhaps that's the rub, though? I should just label such arguments as the posting of a nutjob and move on?

On the other hand, if you actually know specifically what it is about these mythological creatures that's the problem? Let's have it.

"Totems and tribes", however, I can totally see how people might be a little bit sensitive around those issues given that First Nations people are at the absolute bottom of the pile when it comes to treatment in the States and given how commonly shit their representations in games are. It's like that film Maverick without the self-aware humour.

Edit: The irony for me is that I imagine that this is going to be reported.

Quote from: BadApple on November 05, 2023, 08:34:59 AMForced representation is the problem.  Representation merely for representation's sake is the problem.  The ridged yet twisted moral code that somehow I'm evil if I'm not constantly making diversity my #1 focus is the problem.

That seems... a reasonable perspective.

At the same time I imagine that "you" have to balance it with the kind of lazy argument that says something like, "I don't like that <inclusive> character in my elf-game because they're based upon medieval Europe and that was predominantly white".

You see this in the pushback to the casting of characters that don't fit into the perceived "norm" of readers of, say, Wheel of Time, just as you see it in Johansson being cast in Ghost in the Shell. You're screwed whatever choice you make.

Quote from: BadApple on November 05, 2023, 08:34:59 AMYes, I said it, the modern leftist ideology of "diversity" is an ideology of hate and violence.  There's too much on record with leading lights encouraging violence to think otherwise.  There's too much documentation of leftist groups engaging in actual violence against those they perceive as being politically incorrect.  As someone who claims to be an academic, your severe lack of due diligence looking into the subject before spouting off is disturbing.

Nope. I just see the swell of right-wing nonsense in parallel to it.

Also, I'm not an academic and haven't been for quite some time.

Quote from: BadApple on November 05, 2023, 08:34:59 AMHowever, when I'm at the table, I'm there for the game, not to be preached to, admonished for this sins of my forefathers, or educated by leftist nitwits that have never formed a functional organization let alone a health society.

Now that I can agree with. Though, truth be told, try putting Libertarians on an island and see how it works out...