Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;959737Again, I'm talking about those OUTSIDE the hobby, for whom "D&D is the same as World of Warcraft because elves."

Elf games are serious business.

Quote from: Krimson;959723You can Signal in a thread on an internet forum as much as you like, but ultimately money talks and everything else is hot air, which is proven again and again. Certainly it is possible to use negative publicity to affect a project, though in such a case you would actually have to have a forum that has some sort of influence on the gaming community for it to work. In this project though, I suspect backers were probably already fans, or just gamers who have a lot of disposable income and who probably could give a damn about politics.

 IOW, I don't think there was a goal to "defeat" the Kickstarter. There's little doubt it was going to be completed. The OP and others were expressing an opinion about EP choice of wording. That it "worked" isn't a shock. Pandering often does, that's what its done so frequently. And jus because it made money didn't eliminate the negative feeling some have about their choices. And others are allowed to have opinions about what PM does in public.

The thread was to express those opinions, see if anyone else shared and generate discussion, not wreck the KS Or if that was the purpose it was pretty feeble attempt. Just seems to be people the shit about opinions like most things on here. Yeah the KS worked that doesn't make it a good choice of approach for everyone. So making noises like the thread was somehow invalidated because the KS met it goals is a little silly and pointless.

I fully expected the Kickstarter to succeed. I just saw no need for them to highlight that they had more art from female artists. Not because I did not want to see more art  from female artists. Male, female, transgendered as long as it's good art. I'm not going to think more highly of or respect a company more because they hire more than just men. As long as the finished product is great.and worth buying it's all that matters. Not the writer/artist gender.

Quote from: Krimson;959738Elf games are serious business.

Unfortunately some companies think that way sufficiently to justify whatever underhanded stunts they think they can pull.

Saying "Hey. We hired some girls." doesnt even rate on the meter.

The reason I didn't back the KS was because they are charging more for the pdf+print combo. Especially since you can download the book for free because of the CC license.

I have known about the company's politics for years now. One of the creators (I think Boyle, but it has been a very long time and i could be wrong) was talking about in an interview how he fights the fascists. This was back in the Obama era and the 2016 election wasn't even on anyone's radar at the time.

That being said, I rather liked the setting for EP (though I thought the Jovians for while there got shafted and became one note villains). I usually don't care about a rpg creator's politics when I purchase the books. Which is well, since being somewhat right center, I would not be able to purchase much of anything rpg wise. I used to be an White Wolf fan, but I have stopped buying stuff from them recently. I mostly do WOTC, Fantasy Flight Games, and Modiphius with a little bit of Cubicle 7 on the side.

Quote from: Omega;959768Unfortunately some companies think that way sufficiently to justify whatever underhanded stunts they think they can pull.

Saying "Hey. We hired some girls." doesnt even rate on the meter.

I guess that really depends on how many people with disposable income will pour it into projects they feel embody "Social Justice". If that demographic is big enough, it may have paid off for them. Hard to say because I know nothing of the backers interest nor intent.

Quote from: Starglyte;959772The reason I didn't back the KS was because they are charging more for the pdf+print combo. Especially since you can download the book for free because of the CC license.

Yep. I can effectively ignore politics, which is why Pundit has got money from me, but this is just a ripoff and killed any prospects of my backing it.

It would be interesting to see how SJW pandering equates to cash, or not. It's hard to know with EP2e as EP1e has a good sized fanbase online and transhumanism is hot area of sci-fi right now.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;959106You would have to ask the writers "what message Eclipse Phase is trying to send," but I'd say you're getting what the fan base thinks wrong.

Will do. In the meantime, what message is #EclipsePhase actually sending, and what makes you think I have the wrong impression of the fanbase? Because as far as I can tell, most of the surrounding community thinks gender is nothing more than a social construct, yet that's certainly not the case in the game's setting, and I'm wondering how they get around the dissonance.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;959175I'm not going to call you names, but the obvious question is how someone is to be judged on their skills and the body of their work if they don't get their art printed because of problems in the system.

When it comes to illustrations, there are no problems in the system, only problems with individual artists. Go browse #DeviantArt sometime to see how many talented women are participating. Then see if you can spot any gender disparities regarding the subject matter they choose to draw for fun.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;959183To me, someone arguing that these companies are wrong for seeking out diverse viewpoints and sources of talents needs to prove to me that everybody's equally represented, because as somebody who knows quite a few game designers personally and who knows about a lot more second-hand, most of them are white guys.

The dogmatic pursuit of #Diversity leads to more problems than it solves. And where are we drawing the baseline for equality? Gender? Race? Religion? Ethnicity? Income? Because there will always be some degree of inequality.

A just and fair society gives everyone the same opportunities and choices. That's what we should be striving for, not creating arbitrary demographics which look good on paper.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;959183Also, from a strictly financial perspective, the worst job in the world is RPG freelancing.  You make better money at McDonald's.

And maybe that's why fewer women choose to participate in this 'industry'.

Quote from: sureshot;959097The whole setting of Eclipse Phase to me should have humanity slowly turning away from religion.

Nah. It should address the evolution of religion, just like it does with everything else.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;959152Step 1: Understand that the people complaining here are misogynists.

Indeed. Far easier to dismiss them as #Misogynists than engage and address their actual points.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;959152Step 2: Understand that what you're reading is a dog-whistle for their real complaint, which is that people with vaginas are contaminating their boys club.

Well that's a rather #Transphobic statement to make.

Oh look, I can dismiss people by labeling them too

Quote from: sureshot;959184All Green Ronin, Paizo, and Posthuman have to do is hire them.

But that would imply the problem doesn't exist and a meaningful portion of the customer base are either mistaken or liars.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;959306Does having a women make it better, do they have better writing skills?  Are they better at explaining/showing the topic you wish to sell?  Do they understand, in the case of RPGs, how to make the rules work for the setting/topic/idea they want to make into a game?

I've seen no difference whatsoever between women and men in this regard.

Quote from: Omega;959308But the problem starts to show when its used more as a publicity gag than an honest endeavor. And in the last few years its gotten harder to sort out one from the other.

It's now impossible to explore a premise in play without being accused of endorsing and promoting it, which severely limits the creative space you have to work in. And these 'all games are political' evangelists? They don't want to play games, they want to use them as propaganda, which leads them to see all games as such.

Quote from: Nexus;959310For the record and like I said earlier what Postmortem Studio is doing is just trumpeting their own virtue and marketing.

Quote from: Krimson;959405He has a point. I mean, if the angry gamers are giving Postmortem 17+ pages of free advertising by doing what they do then it's probably a sound strategy.

#PostmortemStudios is #JamesDesborough's imprint, which if you know anything about him makes this rather common misattribution absolutely hysterical.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;959373Yes, because navigating the interpersonal dynamics of playing a game with your friends is exactly the same as breaking into a corporate work environment.

Now if only people would stop trying to address the interpersonal dynamics of playing a game with your friends by attempting to change an entire 'community'.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;9594243e D&D designers? All men.

4e D&D designers? All men.

5e D&D lead designers and writers? All men.

#EclipsePhase 2e lead designers? All men.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;959465Second, do you honestly think a woman wouldn't jump at the chance to design the The World's Most Popular?

Well I wouldn't, because I understand the play I enjoy isn't what the D&D brand delivers.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;959465I don't have an answer, but I have a much clearer idea of the problem that the knuckle-draggers do.

#Compelling. If I wasn't convinced of the error of their ways before, I certainly am now

Quote from: Black Vulmea;959465I chose 3e D&D as my baseline because of the change in demographics among tabletop roleplaying gamers that followed Vampire: The Masquerade in '91. V:TM was the gateway for many women gamers into the hobby.

Weird how a game where you play supernatural rapists ended up attracting more women that any prior RPG.

Quote from: sureshot;959488Long story short a fan of D&D but no way was she going to play it because it would have ostracized her from the cool kids at school.

Quote from: Nexus;959490As teens, most girls often weren't interested in playing due to the social stigma.

Quote from: sureshot;959494It was the same thing with comic books, video games, sci-fi and fantasy novels. Most women when I was younger would not be caught dead playing video games or reading any of the three. It was not the type of thing the cool people did.

Social stigma is still the leading cause for lack of engagement, and it disproportionately affects women. Solving this problem will do more to get people involved than any other single thing.

Quote from: tenbones;959571I feel like that fake native-american guy in the old "Keep America Clean" PSA's.

Another great fake was #JamakeHighwater, who consulted on Star Trek Voyager regarding a certain character. He assumed a #Cherokee identity because he didn't think he could break into the writing world otherwise.

#NativeAmericanPrivilege

Quote from: Ratman_tf;959734There's one idea that all this identity politics might be, in part, why some women are reluctant to enter these fields. Some blog post is reposted on their facebook about how all rpg players are rapists, or how Gen-Con treats women like shit, or how Paizo is a company full of "unexamined misogyny", and think "Fuck that."

I blame the #WhiteMaleTerrorists.

Quote from: Krimson;959650If anything, you know what should offend people about this Kickstarter? Charging $15 for a PDF on TOP of a $60 book. Seriously?

Quote from: Starglyte;959772The reason I didn't back the KS was because they are charging more for the pdf+print combo. Especially since you can download the book for free because of the CC license.

So you're offended because they're charging for something they're also giving away for free?!? Are you fucking kidding me?!?

Quote from: Krimson;959702I guess it worked. Pledge amounts have doubled since I last checked.

Yet the #KickStarter doesn't mention any of this nonsense. Pretty sure it's a footnote everywhere but here.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;959880It's now impossible to explore a premise in play without being accused of endorsing and promoting it, which severely limits the creative space you have to work in.

Unfortunate and all too common.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;959880So you're offended because they're charging for something they're also giving away for free?!? Are you fucking kidding me?!?

Yes that's correct. I have so much free time that I have the luxury of being offended over a game. Be thankful this is game fandom and not some sport about millionaires chasing a ball around, because then you'd see some serious bizness.

Quote from: Spinachcat;959873It would be interesting to see how SJW pandering equates to cash, or not. It's hard to know with EP2e as EP1e has a good sized fanbase online and transhumanism is hot area of sci-fi right now.

I'd imagine it does a little, at least doesn't cost anything and might keep the usual suspects off your projects case. It does seem like a risky audience to court. It easy to cross the line (which shifts constantly) and then it will turn on you savagely. Then you have to work harder to keep them off you. I've seen it happen with Exalted and other games a few times. As was mentioned earlier, it does tend to narrow down what you're "allowed" to do creatively.

Because having certain groups as enemies can have an impact on income since more than just "bitching uselessly" they'll start pushing for products to be pulled from sales outlets and for boycotts.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;959624I'd agree. Blizz AFAIK doesn't rub the diversity in people's faces. And good on them for it.

Quote from: Nexus;959645They do seem to be relatively quiet about it. I didn't know about some of the characters traits for quite some time. Ironically, Blizzard is catching a little flak for not putting the nature of their characters to the forefront. AIU, it doesn't come up in the game much at all and is mostly something in related media like comics. Some critics are accusing them of posers and using "diversity" for a few more sales but not truly embracing it.

I made a reply to this in another thread I didn't want to post is hear as it is fairly long and would tend to drag this thread off topic

you can find it here
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36809-cahrater-discustion&p=959932#post959932

It's not like the social stigma for playing rpgs for teen boys is insubstantial either. It was more accepted in the early 80s, in my experience, but after the fad died it quickly became a marker of supernerdiness for anyone who hoped to get laid before graduation.

My impression, completely on the outside of course, is that it there is actually less stigma right now, at least for pre-teen or tweeners or whatever they call that contingent of kids these days.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;959880

QuoteStep 2: Understand that what you're reading is a dog-whistle for their real complaint, which is that people with vaginas are contaminating their boys club.

Well that's a rather #Transphobic statement to make.

I can't tell if you're trying to claim some transphobic variant of "the real racists are the people against racism" or if you just critically failed your reading comprehension check.

Quote from: Krimson;959899Yes that's correct. I have so much free time that I have the luxury of being offended over a game.

But your complaint doesn't make any sense: Posthuman has always released free PDFs under a Creative Commons license while also giving people the option of paying for those PDFs if they want to. How could that possibly offend you?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;959948But your complaint doesn't make any sense: Posthuman has always released free PDFs under a Creative Commons license while also giving people the option of paying for those PDFs if they want to. How could that possibly offend you?

It's the pricing scheme that I find annoying. Charging $20 for a PDF, fine. But if you just forked out $60 for a book, an additional $15 for a digital document seems excessive, especially when shipping is not factored into the equation yet. That's just being greedy and money grubbing is the quickest way to get me to close my wallet.