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I'm a big fan of the original Over The Edge RPG, one of the most innovative RPGs to come out of the 1990s (2nd only to Amber).

Now, there's a Kickstarter campaign, very likely to fund, that will create a new edition of this game.

Unfortunately, by the sounds of it the system is being changed in big ways, and by the sounds of it, it's going to have some serious Storygamer influence.

Or am I wrong?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1048428I'm a big fan of the original Over The Edge RPG, one of the most innovative RPGs to come out of the 1990s (2nd only to Amber).

Now, there's a Kickstarter campaign, very likely to fund, that will create a new edition of this game.

Unfortunately, by the sounds of it the system is being changed in big ways, and by the sounds of it, it's going to have some serious Storygamer influence.

Or am I wrong?

Amended for shilling purposes: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/atlasgames/over-the-edge-a-roleplaying-game-of-weird-urban-da

What do we know about the system? The KS mentions a 2d6 roll, which determines success/failure plus a positive or negative "special result", but that says almost nothing, and the FAQ is empty. Though there does seem to be a draft available to backers.

Do what I did and review the names of those involved:

This Kickstarter features a single rulebook written by original Over the Edge designer Jonathan Tweet. It also features assistance from writer Chris Lites, development by Cam Banks, graphic design by Thomas Deeny, art direction by James Mosingo, and editing by Jaym Gates. This new edition is also inspired by 25 years of other game designers' work, including Robin Laws, Ron Edwards, Luke Crane, Vincent Baker, John Harper, and Jason Morningstar. Many designers say that the original Over the Edge inspired them to design roleplaying games in a new way. We embrace that creative feedback loop by re-incorporating some of their amazing innovations here.

And then make a decision as to what direction the game's mechanics may lean.

The original edition of the game had a mechanic where you could draw a number of words, cut from magazines and newspapers (yes, it is an old game), equal to your score in the trait you were using, then attempt to narrate your action using those words. For each word you were able to successfully include in your description, you got a success.

If such a staid, solid example of traditional RPG design has been corrupted by the Swine, surely all of gaming is lost. I'll break out the bunker's supply of cyanide capsules.

More seriously, from what I understand so far, it's a 2d6 system giving success or failure. It either die comes up 3, there is a bad twist. If either die comes up 4, there is a good twist. The system was always openly inspired by Ghostbusters. It looks like Tweet is now borrowing the Ghost Die along with the opposite of a Ghost Die. That's what I have picked up from random online conversation, so I may have the specifics wrong.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1048428I'm a big fan of the original Over The Edge RPG, one of the most innovative RPGs to come out of the 1990s (2nd only to Amber).

Now, there's a Kickstarter campaign, very likely to fund, that will create a new edition of this game.

Unfortunately, by the sounds of it the system is being changed in big ways, and by the sounds of it, it's going to have some serious Storygamer influence.

Or am I wrong?

We must have been gaming twins in a past life...OtE is great. If they somehow fuck this up, I will be seriously annoyed.

Quote from: Pat;1048437What do we know about the system? The KS mentions a 2d6 roll, which determines success/failure plus a positive or negative "special result", but that says almost nothing, and the FAQ is empty. Though there does seem to be a draft available to backers.

Quote from: Baulderstone;1048446More seriously, from what I understand so far, it's a 2d6 system giving success or failure. It either die comes up 3, there is a bad twist. If either die comes up 4, there is a good twist. The system was always openly inspired by Ghostbusters. It looks like Tweet is now borrowing the Ghost Die along with the opposite of a Ghost Die. That's what I have picked up from random online conversation, so I may have the specifics wrong.

Cam Banks on the Comments page of the Kickstarter:

Quoteanytime you need to resolve a challenging situation, problem, or decision in the game, anytime you can't just play it out and the outcome is going to change the story one way or another, you roll dice. Players roll the dice and the GM does not. If the player is the active character, all they need is 7+. If they're defending or reacting, it's 8+.
If you roll a 3, something bad happens; if you roll a 4, something good happens. Double 3s are double bad, double 4s are double good. Everything else more or less comes from that basic mechanic.
--Cam

Quote from: Baulderstone;1048446The original edition of the game had a mechanic where you could draw a number of words, cut from magazines and newspapers (yes, it is an old game), equal to your score in the trait you were using, then attempt to narrate your action using those words. For each word you were able to successfully include in your description, you got a success.

Given Over the Edge is heavily inspired by William S. Burroughs, it shouldn't be a surprise they adapted the cut-up technique he popularized. Though didn't that appear in Weather the Cuckoo Likes, not the core book? (I forget whether a brief version appeared in the core, or whether it first appeared in the Cut-Ups sourcebook.)

Quote from: sniderman;1048438Do what I did and review the names of those involved:

This Kickstarter features a single rulebook written by original Over the Edge designer Jonathan Tweet. It also features assistance from writer Chris Lites, development by Cam Banks, graphic design by Thomas Deeny, art direction by James Mosingo, and editing by Jaym Gates. This new edition is also inspired by 25 years of other game designers' work, including Robin Laws, Ron Edwards, Luke Crane, Vincent Baker, John Harper, and Jason Morningstar. Many designers say that the original Over the Edge inspired them to design roleplaying games in a new way. We embrace that creative feedback loop by re-incorporating some of their amazing innovations here.

And then make a decision as to what direction the game's mechanics may lean.

See, I know most of those names, and the ones I'm most familiar with have worked on a range of products across the spectrum. With 6 inspirations listed by name, plus the guys actually working on the book(who have similar backgrounds IIRC), it's meaningless word salad that tells me nothing about what to expect.

Nostalgic buyers of such re-booted games are just hammering nails in more coffins.

I'm already turned off by "the players roll all the dice." For whatever reason, whether I'm a player or a GM, that has never appealed to me.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1048564I'm already turned off by "the players roll all the dice." For whatever reason, whether I'm a player or a GM, that has never appealed to me.

It's certainly not a feature unto itself, that needs special billing. I view it as: "Does the ref kick the ball?"

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1048581It's certainly not a feature unto itself, that needs special billing. I view it as: "Does the ref kick the ball?"

The GM is both the referee and plays the opposition.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1048581It's certainly not a feature unto itself, that needs special billing. I view it as: "Does the ref kick the ball?"

I just like greater (but not necessarily perfect) symmetry between PCs and NPCs. So if attacks are rolled and defenses are static, then I want this to apply to both sides of the fight.

There are already better game mechanics in RPGs. Why re-invent one? Unless this isn't an RPG.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1048564I'm already turned off by "the players roll all the dice." For whatever reason, whether I'm a player or a GM, that has never appealed to me.

Only players rolling seems fashionable nowadays. I made all dice rolls in our home brew opposed rolls, so that as GM I would get to roll. My players report the opposed rolls add to the game, since if they roll bad, they can still hope I roll worse. :D

Quote from: Tod13;1048615Only players rolling seems fashionable nowadays. I made all dice rolls in our home brew opposed rolls, so that as GM I would get to roll. My players report the opposed rolls add to the game, since if they roll bad, they can still hope I roll worse. :D

ICONS went that route in the Assembled Edition. Originally it was d6-d6 players only, now it's d6 vs d6. Though the former is still an optional rule (I happen to prefer in this case).

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1048619ICONS went that route in the Assembled Edition. Originally it was d6-d6 players only, now it's d6 vs d6. Though the former is still an optional rule (I happen to prefer in this case).

I recall Starblazer Adventures has the d6-d6 mechanic. A game I have never played nor playtested, but somehow my name is in the book as a playtester. :D

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1048619ICONS went that route in the Assembled Edition. Originally it was d6-d6 players only, now it's d6 vs d6. Though the former is still an optional rule (I happen to prefer in this case).

We use all 6 die sizes. Bonuses/penalties move your die size up or down. It's a somewhat coarse distribution, but rolls and turns are really quick and it works for our group.

I'll be having Cam Banks and Jonathan Tweet in #randomworlds next Tuesday, if you folks want to find out more!

Unfortunately with the way Mr Banks managed the Cortex Prime Kickstarter, which still hasn't been released and hiding development behind a Patreon paywall where delays are financially beneficial, I resolved to never give him my money again. I'm willing to bet development of this game will similarly be hidden from backers behind said paywall.

Quote from: Krimson;1048716Unfortunately with the way Mr Banks managed the Cortex Prime Kickstarter, which still hasn't been released and hiding development behind a Patreon paywall where delays are financially beneficial, I resolved to never give him my money again. I'm willing to bet development of this game will similarly be hidden from backers behind said paywall.

Go to the chat and hold his feet to the fire.

Quote from: Krimson;1048716Unfortunately with the way Mr Banks managed the Cortex Prime Kickstarter, which still hasn't been released and hiding development behind a Patreon paywall where delays are financially beneficial, I resolved to never give him my money again. I'm willing to bet development of this game will similarly be hidden from backers behind said paywall.

It's only a few months late at this point, and they've been open about delays. Also, there have been periodic updates to the Gamer Handbook, with the latest being sent out on June 29. Everything they have mostly ready so far, no Patreon subscription necessary.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;1048785It's only a few months late at this point, and they've been open about delays. Also, there have been periodic updates to the Gamer Handbook, with the latest being sent out on June 29. Everything they have mostly ready so far, no Patreon subscription necessary.

The May 29th update gives a release schedule, but it was a comment he made on Google Plus that concerns me, saying there was no firm date. I did reply and mention that he should mention this to the backers. In any case, the whole hiding development behind Patreon left me with a bad taste. Remember, every month of delay is currently another $545 for him. Mind you the whole way MWP handled Cortex was ridiculous. Stopping communication. Showing up at a con with no games books whatsoever. If you are too lazy to communicate with people who buy your products, then don't pretend to act surprised when they stop doing business with you.

Here. Compare this (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/530352392/cortex-prime-a-multi-genre-modular-roleplaying-gam/posts/2200154) with this (https://plus.google.com/102557983073097940471/posts/eM3uxuAUQAJ).

Story gamers have a hard time debating or describing what story games even are to role-players. http://vanishingtower.blogspot.com/2018/07/robert-bohl-dont-post-here-at-vanishing.html

Had a chance to look over the system.

As far as I'm concerned there isn't one. It's like they took Apocalypse World and stripped away all the guidance and clarity. Character ability is represented by a single numeric level, and 2d6 are used to resolve all challenges. If your level is greater than the difficulty, you can reroll one or more dice. If it's lower than the difficulty, the GM can make you reroll one or more dice. You need a total of at least 7 (if you initiated the action) or 8 (if you're reacting) in order to succeed, and individual results of 3 and 4 are twists.

So here's hoping the world building is compelling.

Quote from: Krimson;1048796Here. Compare this (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/530352392/cortex-prime-a-multi-genre-modular-roleplaying-gam/posts/2200154) with this (https://plus.google.com/102557983073097940471/posts/eM3uxuAUQAJ).

Yeah, and this (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/530352392/cortex-prime-a-multi-genre-modular-roleplaying-gam/posts/2225735) from 14 days ago -- a month after your first link and 8 days prior to the earliest post in the 2nd -- explains what happened. He gave tentative dates. Progress has still been made(enough to send out an updated file), but not as fast as he'd hoped, and he says why.

I also looked at the Patreon and its updates, and it's a non-game-specific Patreon for anything he's working on at the moment. You get access to some playtest stuff and more and more direct contact with Cam himself depending on which tier you pledge at. The game stuff sent out is the exact same stuff you get as a kickstarter backer. It's more of an alternate way to get access to them if you didn't back(or just missed) the kickstarter than a special bonus. But there's nothing being hidden from kickstarter backers behind a paywall. That's just not true.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1048926Character ability is represented by a single numeric level, and 2d6 are used to resolve all challenges. If your level is greater than the difficulty, you can reroll one or more dice. If it's lower than the difficulty, the GM can make you reroll one or more dice. You need a total of at least 7 (if you initiated the action) or 8 (if you're reacting) in order to succeed, and individual results of 3 and 4 are twists.

To be fair, that's not terribly different than the original mechanic.  A trait could be...pretty much anything.  Roll a # of dice equal to your trait and try to beat the difficulty or the GM's roll.  That's it.  I'd be willing to guess the probabilities are roughly the same when the rerolls are factored, and the good/bad make it easy to include partial success/failure without too much fiddliness.

The setting is just plain weird.  

Honestly, I'm not really seeing what the argument is about.  The game was always about this weird surreal setting paired with the barest nugget of a mechanic.  For it's time, the mechanics (or lack thereof) were very innovative in their minimalism.  It was designed to blend into the background and get out of the way.  I don't really see a difference here.

Tom

I am not surprised it's being turned into a storygame, it always was dangerously thespy.

Quote from: Baulderstone;1048446The original edition of the game had a mechanic where you could draw a number of words, cut from magazines and newspapers (yes, it is an old game), equal to your score in the trait you were using, then attempt to narrate your action using those words. For each word you were able to successfully include in your description, you got a success.

If such a staid, solid example of traditional RPG design has been corrupted by the Swine, surely all of gaming is lost. I'll break out the bunker's supply of cyanide capsules.

To clarify, a completely optional and stupid set of rules somewhere in the back that no one I knew ever used. It was a throwaway notion, it had nothing to do with the actual system itself. You're trying to pretend that it was somehow part of the actual WARP system.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1048564I'm already turned off by "the players roll all the dice." For whatever reason, whether I'm a player or a GM, that has never appealed to me.

It's a common hallmark of Storygames that want to reduce GM power to an absolute minimum. To reduce them to the level of Monopoly Bankers.

Quote from: S'mon;1048584The GM is both the referee and plays the opposition.

A GM isn't a referee. A GM is the Architect of the universe.

Of course, that's in an RPG.

In a storygame, they don't usually even want a GM to be a referee. They want him to be a kind of powerless figure that has no ability to interfere with the divine inspiration of the Game Designer.

Quote from: Blusponge;1049000To be fair, that's not terribly different than the original mechanic.

What's different is that it uses one number to represent every trait your PC has, and it's the same for every PC.

Quote from: Blusponge;1049000The setting is just plain weird.

I know, and my concern is that they're going to make it less weird.

Quote from: Blusponge;1049000Honestly, I'm not really seeing what the argument is about.

Simply put: The system does not help the game be about what it's trying to be about, and none of your choices improve your chance of success.

I don't have a horse in this race. I didn't plan on buying this in the first place, and nothing's changed my mind. But here (https://gmshoe.wordpress.com/2018/07/17/qa-cam-banks-jonathan-tweet-over-the-edge/) is a transcript of the Q&A with Cam Banks and Jonathan Tweet that was held the other day. No idea what all's there, or if it'll even be useful. It just is what it is.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;1049681I don't have a horse in this race. I didn't plan on buying this in the first place, and nothing's changed my mind. But here (https://gmshoe.wordpress.com/2018/07/17/qa-cam-banks-jonathan-tweet-over-the-edge/) is a transcript of the Q&A with Cam Banks and Jonathan Tweet that was held the other day. No idea what all's there, or if it'll even be useful. It just is what it is.

After reading this transcript, to say nothing of the changes with regards to the setting or the mechanics themselves - which, I'm pretty sure some people are going to flip their lids over reading about the changes to the latter and how the designers describe the game mechanics they deliberately excluded such as having separate mechanics for things like combat or including hit points or even individual abilities (I mean, even fucking Heroquest 2 lets you define and rate/improve freeform abilities individually) - it's pretty clear these guys have been drinking a bit of their own koolaid.

Which is, I suppose, to be expected from any game designer. Still, there's an itch at the back of my neck I can't quite seem to scratch regarding all this new information.

How could anybody actually think the new edition of OtE would NOT be a storygame?

OtE is one of my top three rpgs of all time.

I have no interest in buying this one. Three reasons exist

1) There is absolutely nothing wrong with the last edition of OtE. Nothing!

2) The 2d6 "thing" described in the Gumshoe transcript makes no sense whatever.

3) I don't hate anyone in the rpg industry. Not Ron Edwards. Not Skarka. NO ONE. Except Cam Banks. One run in with the gnip-gnop on the internet -- that was it. Die in a fire kinda hate...

Quote from: LouGoncey;10498932) The 2d6 "thing" described in the Gumshoe transcript makes no sense whatever.

It absolutely makes sense. It works similarly to the advantage/disadvantage mechanic in Mongoose Traveller 2e. The reroll mechanic increases or decreases your chances of beating the target number of 7 without changing the overall potential range of the roll, which is always between 2 and 12.

You have your self-defined attributes, and your character level. Actions that fall within your attributes operate at your character level, and actions that fall outside of them operate at a lower level. You compare this effective level to the challenge level of whatever you're up against. If they are the same, you roll 2d6 and that's that. If your level is higher, you get to reroll a die X number of time depending on the difference in levels, increasing your odds of rolling higher. If the challenge level is higher, then the GM gets to reroll a die X number of times in a similar fashion, decreasing your odds of rolling high. (In neither case do you have to use those rerolls. If you already rolled good enough[or bad enough], you can stop there.)

It's honestly one of the simpler systems I've seen. The only part that seems remotely storygame-like is the self-defined(with GM approval) attributes.

Quote3) I don't hate anyone in the rpg industry. Not Ron Edwards. Not Skarka. NO ONE. Except Cam Banks. One run in with the gnip-gnop on the internet -- that was it. Die in a fire kinda hate...

I recall reading his blog a while back, and I stopped due to the heavily political direction his posts often went in. It probably didn't help that I disagreed with his political views immensely(still do, but for somewhat different reasons). I also met the dude a couple times at conventions. He seemed like a genuinely nice and cheerful person at the time, but I'll admit our chats never veered anywhere near politics or religion. This was quite a while back, though -- about 6 years for the 2nd and final time I met him, back when Marvel Heroic was new and shiny -- so things might be different now.

Quote from: LouGoncey;10498931) There is absolutely nothing wrong with the last edition of OtE. Nothing!

To be fair, the draft document says as much on page 3 :), and in fact, outright tells you that you can and should mix and match between editions depending on your personal taste.

When I first read the rules I was underwhelmed, but it has kind of grown on me, it clicked that the game is pretty much "diceless " 99% of the time, with a barebones resolution thingie when you want to screw up player's lives.

Quote from: Pat;1048437What do we know about the system? The KS mentions a 2d6 roll, which determines success/failure plus a positive or negative "special result", but that says almost nothing, and the FAQ is empty. Though there does seem to be a draft available to backers.

I heard an interview with him on KARTAS (admittedly was taped a while ago), and it sounded like the main point of deviation wasn't "story games" per se, so much as the twee new game designs like GeneSys, TOR, Fragged Empire, and the like, that award special results for specific results on dice that are also being used for your total.

To be fair, it sounded like it just used normal D6's instead of funky dice, so it has that going for it.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;1049992I heard an interview with him on KARTAS (admittedly was taped a while ago), and it sounded like the main point of deviation wasn't "story games" per se, so much as the twee new game designs like GeneSys, TOR, Fragged Empire, and the like, that award special results for specific results on dice that are also being used for your total.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that in my explanation above. This gives you 12 different types of result(sounds more complicated than it really is when you say it like that) instead of just a binary succeed or fail. Just remember "3 bad, 4 good" and the rest is easy.

Quote from: LouGoncey;10498933) I don't hate anyone in the rpg industry. Not Ron Edwards. Not Skarka. NO ONE. Except Cam Banks. One run in with the gnip-gnop on the internet -- that was it. Die in a fire kinda hate...

Well that doesn't sound good.

OTE was the godfather of story games. This new version is all Jonathan's design. For him it's like coming around full circle. Even if you're not a fan of the rules, the new 21st century take on the island is pretty dang good. I hope you'll check it out.

Cheers,
Cam

Except mechanically it was in no way a 'godfather of storygames'.

Also, I dread to imagine what the 'new take on the island'.  Knowing the current insanity of the Derangement Crowd, it'll probably be full of really pathetically transparent "evil Trump" metaphors that will age horribly.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1050745Except mechanically it was in no way a 'godfather of storygames'.

Also, I dread to imagine what the 'new take on the island'.  Knowing the current insanity of the Derangement Crowd, it'll probably be full of really pathetically transparent "evil Trump" metaphors that will age horribly.

I don't know - how well do you know Jonathan Tweet?

This game is closer to the game he wanted to write in 1992, and to the game he was running at the time for his friends. I always trust the author as a developer.

Cheers,
Cam

Quote from: Cam Banks;1050765I don't know - how well do you know Jonathan Tweet?

  Given that he was one of the organizers of the #Gamers4Her movement, and used a Bundle of Holding of the previous edition to raise funds for Planned Parenthood, I'd say it's a safe bet that the game will not be particularly welcoming to non-Progressives.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1050846Given that he was one of the organizers of the #Gamers4Her movement, and used a Bundle of Holding of the previous edition to raise funds for Planned Parenthood, I'd say it's a safe bet that the game will not be particularly welcoming to non-Progressives.

Ah, I see. You are one of those people who only buys games from people whose politics they agree with so you can be assured that the game will be safe and "welcoming", as you put it. I haven't read the whole PDF, but so far there is a line or two that you might find triggery, so you may want to avoid the whole game.

Quote from: Baulderstone;1050854Ah, I see. You are one of those people who only buys games from people whose politics they agree with so you can be assured that the game will be safe and "welcoming", as you put it. I haven't read the whole PDF, but so far there is a line or two that you might find triggery, so you may want to avoid the whole game.

  *Shrug* I have no interest in the game to begin with, and was simply pointing out that Tweet has mixed politics and gaming before and from a viewpoint the Pundit's not likely to find favorable. Granted, it's one that I don't find favorable either.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1050861*Shrug* I have no interest in the game to begin with, and was simply pointing out that Tweet has mixed politics and gaming before and from a viewpoint the Pundit's not likely to find favorable. Granted, it's one that I don't find favorable either.

Fair enough. I'm equally tired of the mindset that all gaming needs to be viewed politically (and that the politics needs to line up with the reader) as well the idea that no game should ever have political content. I think both ideas are stifling.

Quote from: Baulderstone;1050872Fair enough. I'm equally tired of the mindset that all gaming needs to be viewed politically (and that the politics needs to line up with the reader) as well the idea that no game should ever have political content. I think both ideas are stifling.

Barn door being closed; even the dust trail from the escaping horse is no longer visible.

Just to add to my last post, I think the expectation of political content in games varies wildly. If I picked up a Conan RPG, and it was full of thinly-veiled political satire, I would have no problem with people complaining about the author inappropriately inserting his politics. That would be weird. On the other hand, it seems pretty natural for a weird conspiracy game like Over the Edge to have political satire in it. It would be strange if there wasn't.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1050846Given that he was one of the organizers of the #Gamers4Her movement, and used a Bundle of Holding of the previous edition to raise funds for Planned Parenthood, I'd say it's a safe bet that the game will not be particularly welcoming to non-Progressives.

Thank you for reminding me of that. I will not be buying this.

Quote from: Baulderstone;1050881Just to add to my last post, I think the expectation of political content in games varies wildly. If I picked up a Conan RPG, and it was full of thinly-veiled political satire, I would have no problem with people complaining about the author inappropriately inserting his politics. That would be weird. On the other hand, it seems pretty natural for a weird conspiracy game like Over the Edge to have political satire in it. It would be strange if there wasn't.

Except Al Amarja is an imaginary island set vaguely somewhere in the juxtaposition of three continents, drawing from all them but attached to none of them. It's deliberately divorced from real world issues and connections, so anything and everything can be jammed together in one place. And the conspiracies are just weird, not a reflection or comment on contemporary issues except by sheer accident. It's about the strange, and casual connections; not incisive, pointed commentary.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1050846Given that he was one of the organizers of the #Gamers4Her movement, and used a Bundle of Holding of the previous edition to raise funds for Planned Parenthood, I'd say it's a safe bet that the game will not be particularly welcoming to non-Progressives.

Honestly, I don't think that's a good indication of what you can expect to see in the game itself. I'm not familiar with #Gamers4Her, but I'm assuming it's a progressive tag that basically boils down to "men, mostly white, are here to save the poor, helpless women." And I have a number of games whose writers hold to progressive views, and there's little to nothing in the games themselves to indicate this. In many cases, I wouldn't even know if I wasn't a frequenter of various games fora.

And they're perfectly within their rights to give a portion of their profits, whether directly or via the Bundle of Holding organization, to the cause of their choice. Again, that doesn't indicate what's actually in the books. But it does affect which bundles I'm willing to purchase, as there are certain causes I'm not willing to knowingly support. But that's something else entirely, unrelated to the books' content.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;1050891Honestly, I don't think that's a good indication of what you can expect to see in the game itself.

  True enough. Now, if Over the Edge takes on contemporary issues (and I don't know that it does; my knowledge of the game is pretty much one article from Dragon Magazine #203 or 204), Tweet's politics are pretty much a matter of record, so you would have a pretty good idea of what kind of perspective to expect. But for all I know, it could just as easily be apolitical.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1050892True enough. Now, if Over the Edge takes on contemporary issues (and I don't know that it does; my knowledge of the game is pretty much one article from Dragon Magazine #203 or 204), Tweet's politics are pretty much a matter of record, so you would have a pretty good idea of what kind of perspective to accept. But for all I know, it could just as easily be apolitical.

Has anyone asked him?

When a game or other piece of media has politics you disagree with, it's "political". When you agree with it, it's "apolitical" or "just how the world works".

Quote from: Fucking change your name already;1050896When a game or other piece of media has politics you disagree with, it's "political". When you agree with it, it's "apolitical" or "just how the world works".

That would only be true if "politics" meant "any way that people interact" instead of "politics".

Quote from: Xuc xac;1050896When a game or other piece of media has politics you disagree with, it's "political". When you agree with it, it's "apolitical" or "just how the world works".

I'm sorry. Would "taking a clear position on contemporary controversies" be more acceptable? ;)

The OTE scenario 'With a Long Spoon' revolves around a group of Black Supremacists, who believe their melanin gives them psychic powers, who kidnap children, and are actually run by a group of pedophiles led by a black man who lightens his skin to avoid detection. And if that doesn't make the White Supremacists trying to expose those crimes look like the good guys, I don't know what would.

So I'm not sure how concerned we should be about political right think here.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1050907The OTE scenario 'With a Long Spoon' revolves around a group of Black Supremacists, who believe their melanin gives them psychic powers, who kidnap children, and are actually run by a group of pedophiles led by a black man who lightens his skin to avoid detection. And if that doesn't make the White Supremacists trying to expose those crimes look like the good guys, I don't know what would.

Wow, that's like edgelord shit layered upon more edgelord shit right there. Why would anyone think that was a good idea?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1050907The OTE scenario 'With a Long Spoon' revolves around a group of Black Supremacists, who believe their melanin gives them psychic powers, who kidnap children, and are actually run by a group of pedophiles led by a black man who lightens his skin to avoid detection. And if that doesn't make the White Supremacists trying to expose those crimes look like the good guys, I don't know what would.

That situation is even worse than you're describing, but With a Long Spoon was written by Alison Brooks not Tweet.

Wildest Dreams also has an extremely sick premise, but again it's not written by Tweet (authors: Laws, Stolze, and Tynes).

In general though, I think that's just nature of the game. It's about going to extremes in weirdness, and sometimes that ends up in disturbing places as the authors try to push the boundaries even further. Of course, that's completely verboten today.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1050745Except mechanically it was in no way a 'godfather of storygames'.

That would be Amber's title, I believe.  It did after all inspire FATE's creation.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1050745Also, I dread to imagine what the 'new take on the island'.  Knowing the current insanity of the Derangement Crowd, it'll probably be full of really pathetically transparent "evil Trump" metaphors that will age horribly.

Reading this thread on the game's past makes me wonder what the hell was going on when they designed it...

Quote from: Cam Banks;1050765I don't know - how well do you know Jonathan Tweet?

This game is closer to the game he wanted to write in 1992, and to the game he was running at the time for his friends. I always trust the author as a developer.

Cheers,
Cam

Given that you're trying to claim that a non-storygame RPG was the 'godfather of storygames' I have trouble taking you seriously at all. But, I hope I'm wrong.

One of the great things about OtE in the 90s was that it had sophisticated themes without being overtly temporally political, it wasn't a commentary on US politics circa the early 90s, it didn't fall into that trap.

I hope that this doesn't happen now, but given how pervasive Trump Derangement Syndrome is among the entire 'creative Left', it's hard to think that there won't be practically a DEMAND that this happen.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;1050891Honestly, I don't think that's a good indication of what you can expect to see in the game itself. I'm not familiar with #Gamers4Her,

Gamers4her was a movement in the last weeks of the 2016 election where RPG game designers were pressured to publicly declare their support for Hillary Clinton (a woman who, among many other misdeeds, literally tried to ban games when she was a senator), with the understanding that anyone who didn't join in would be collectively punished in the Golden Age to follow Hillary's Inevitable Victory.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1051125Given that you're trying to claim that a non-storygame RPG was the 'godfather of storygames' I have trouble taking you seriously at all. But, I hope I'm wrong.

Nah, I don't find the statement absurd at all. I can see OTE, Pendragon, Everway, etc. as clear ancestors of the current non-traditional games we have nowadays.

Quote from: Itachi;1051130Nah, I don't find the statement absurd at all. I can see OTE, Pendragon, Everway, etc. as clear ancestors of the current non-traditional games we have nowadays.

What are you doing man???  You're claiming 'his' games are doing it wrong!  It can't possibly be!  Oh the HUMANITY!

Quote from: Itachi;1051130Nah, I don't find the statement absurd at all. I can see OTE, Pendragon, Everway, etc. as clear ancestors of the current non-traditional games we have nowadays.

And Amber.  Now, those were all better AS GAMES than the modern versions.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1051235And Amber.

Oh yeah, I forgot that.  

QuoteNow, those were all better AS GAMES than the modern versions.

Don't know if I follow you here. I can see every one of those games, old and new, being interesting in their own way.

Quote from: Itachi;1051239Oh yeah, I forgot that.  


Don't know if I follow you here. I can see every one of those games, old and new, being interesting in their own way.

My reaction to the storygames I've seen can be summed up as "it's too bad this isn't as good as Pendragon."  Not that I play or run anything but GURPS much nowadays, but GURPS is so far removed from them it's not worth the comparison.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1051240My reaction to the storygames I've seen can be summed up as "it's too bad this isn't as good as Pendragon."  Not that I play or run anything but GURPS much nowadays, but GURPS is so far removed from them it's not worth the comparison.

Oh yeah, if you're all into GURPS I can see how these games may bother you.

About Pendragon, I bet it would be considered a storygame if released these days. :p

Quote from: Itachi;1051249Oh yeah, if you're all into GURPS I can see how these games may bother you.

Hey, I love GURPS. It was my starting point back in . . . '95 or '96. And "these games" don't bother me one bit. Powered by the Apocalypse is one of my favorite things in recent memory(though certain specific iterations like Masks and Apocalypse World 2e leave something to be desired).

Quote from: GeekEclectic;1051258Hey, I love GURPS. It was my starting point back in . . . '95 or '96. And "these games" don't bother me one bit. Powered by the Apocalypse is one of my favorite things in recent memory(though certain specific iterations like Masks and Apocalypse World 2e leave something to be desired).

You're right. I play both too, and I'm a fan of PbtA and Cortex. Further, he already knew Pendragon, OTE and Amber so modern games shouldn't feel so out of place, I think.

BTW, Apocalypse World 2e also felt weird to me with all those battle moves. Found this change against the game's spirit. (also, I didn't like the Operator getting cut out)

Quote from: Itachi;1051249Oh yeah, if you're all into GURPS I can see how these games may bother you.

About Pendragon, I bet it would be considered a storygame if released these days. :p

I wouldn't go so far as to say they bother me, I just don't like them.  That's all.  I wouldn't even go so far as to say I hate them, they just ain't for me.

Quote from: Itachi;1051319You're right. I play both too, and I'm a fan of PbtA and Cortex. Further, he already knew Pendragon, OTE and Amber so modern games shouldn't feel so out of place, I think.

I love Cortex, too. I'm waiting for Prime to finally be done before doing more work on a hack I have that's in the preliminary stages. And I backed Lords of Gossamer and Shadow(basically Amber w/ the serial numbers filed off), and would love to get to play that sometime. Sometimes I wonder if it's just that my earliest consistent gaming was done at conventions, where I just tried out everything that sounded interesting. I got to try out a lot of different styles and mechanics without settling into a single one. And even when I didn't care for the mechanics, most of the people I got to play with were really nice and a lot of fun to hang with, so I got lucky there. And maybe the whole artificial split thing has more to do with the "old dog/new tricks" adage than anything else. Plus some personality clashes, internal politics, and unfortunate statements(y'all know which ones) that exacerbated the issue.

QuoteBTW, Apocalypse World 2e also felt weird to me with all those battle moves. Found this change against the game's spirit.

Yes! That's exactly how I explain why I don't like the change, too! The battle moves are probably the most egregious example, but a number of the system changes in 2e seem to fundamentally miss what made the original(and the better derivatives) so great in the first place.

Quote(also, I didn't like the Operator getting cut out)

This is one of the changes I actually don't have a strong opinion on one way or the other. I mean, it kind of makes sense that anyone can do odd jobs in their community, so in that way it seems kind of superfluous. But if there were interesting ways to play with the whole jobs thing that made sense to restrict and  package as moves, maybe a separate playbook would still be cool. I dunno. Like I said, no real strong feelings here.

Pendragon is not a storygame, but mechanically it has some things (with traits and passions) that would at least make it closer to being a 'storygame' than Over The Edge; which has NO such mechanics.

From Jonathan Tweet, via G+:

A notorious RPG "pundit" has been saying that my 1992 Over the Edge was not a storygame, that it was not political, and that it was not about the United States.

Not a storygame? You invented traits for your character rather than selecting from a list. You give your character a motivation and invent an important NPC to be part of their backstory.

Not political? A major plot was a bigoted white man using mind control to spread intolerance and take over the world. Hard to be more "SJW" than that.

Not about the US? They speak English, they use the US dollar, and the name of the island, Al Amarja, is a pretty clear derivation of "America".

As much as I'd like to correct this fellow, he blocked me two years ago after Mike Selinker and I arranged a game-desingers' publicity stunt for Hillary Clinton. Anyway, I guess it's good to have the right enemies.

Quote from: Jonathan Tweet, via G+As much as I'd like to correct this fellow, he blocked me two years ago after Mike Selinker and I arranged a game-desingers' publicity stunt for Hillary Clinton.

This actually concerns and surprises me.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1051722This actually concerns and surprises me.

Which one, that Pundy blocked somebody on a social media platform, or the publicity stunt thing?

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1051725Which one, that Pundy blocked somebody on a social media platform, or the publicity stunt thing?

For me:  Both.

Jonathan Tweet apparently doesn't know what a storygame is. And he's lying; I didn't block him, HE blocked ME.

As for Political, the setting also had space-aliens, and one of the major enemies of the island was a little asian man slowly turning everyone into clones of him.

That last one doesn't sound very "woke" to me...

Quote from: RPGPundit;1052215As for Political, the setting also had space-aliens, and one of the major enemies of the island was a little asian man slowly turning everyone into clones of him.

That last one doesn't sound very "woke" to me...

You will once you realize that Asians are not, typically, one of the protect class.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;1051677Not a storygame? You invented traits for your character rather than selecting from a list. You give your character a motivation and invent an important NPC to be part of their backstory.

None of that is unique to storygames, or even forbidden in traditional games, though the part where you "make an NPC" will require GM approval. And I somehow doubt that the way OTE does it negates that need for approval.

QuoteNot political? A major plot was a bigoted white man using mind control to spread intolerance and take over the world. Hard to be more "SJW" than that.

I agree, but I have a feeling he doesn't realize what he actually said here. :p Anyway, a game having certain political subplots in the background is a far cry from being a game about politics. This might mean more if he actually said what this "white man mind control" thing was meant to reflect IRL(I took a cursory look at what all was going on between 92 and 97 and didn't really see anything that wouldn't be a huge stretch), but it might not.

QuoteNot about the US? They speak English, they use the US dollar, and the name of the island, Al Amarja, is a pretty clear derivation of "America".

It was also set in the Mediterranean. I have a feeling that most casual readers wouldn't catch all of that, and would assume characters spoke "the local language," that dollars was either non-US(quite a few countries refer to their currencies as a dollars) or used as an easy shorthand given where the game was most likely to be sold, and tbh Al Amarja at first glance just looks like a generic Arabic(or Arabic-derived) name. It's one of those things where once you say it, I'm like "yeah, I can see that," but I wouldn't have thought of it on my own.

QuoteAs much as I'd like to correct this fellow, he blocked me two years ago after Mike Selinker and I arranged a game-desingers' publicity stunt for Hillary Clinton. Anyway, I guess it's good to have the right enemies.[/I]

See above. He can post here just fine.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1052214And he's lying; I didn't block him, HE blocked ME.

That's... pretty fucking egregious.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1052215one of the major enemies of the island was a little asian man slowly turning everyone into clones of him.

Between that, Tweet's quote, and With a Long Spoon, Over The Edge appears to be strangely obsessed with race.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1052450Between that, Tweet's quote, and With a Long Spoon, Over The Edge appears to be strangely obsessed with race.

It's not. Over the Edge is an endless cavalcade of all kinds of weirdness and extremism, hitting all the more popular themes multiple times. Race, if anything, is underrepresented. OtE is far more obsessed with drugs or aliens, for instance.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1051722This actually concerns and surprises me.

Someday, "What's the best edition of D&D?" will be a presidential debate question.

*One can hope

Quote from: Rhedyn;1052462Someday, "What's the best edition of D&D?" will be a presidential debate question.

*One can hope

OD&D=Left Libertarians and Survivalists
B/X=Libertarians & Centrist Dads
AD&D=Old GOP/One Nation Conservatives
AD&D 2nd ed=Reaganothatcherite Anarcho-Corporatists
3-3.5=The Decline of the Democratic Party/Labour Party>New Labour Experiment
4th=Neo-Liberalism/One World Government Technocrats
5th=The Nu-Maoist Faction of the People's Populist Podcast Party of Pastiche Major

Anyway, I consider the first edition of OtE to be my introduction to the sort of thing that became the storygame. If, back then, future-me had appeared just after my long OtE campaign and said "In the electronic wastelands of the far future, we will fight over whether or not Over the Edge qualifies as a thing we futurians call 'the storygame'", I'd have been all like, "Future apparition-me, you tell them futurian bastards that the term works for what we have just experienced as a gaming collective."

GURPS is not a storygame? You buy EXACTLY the stats you want with points, shaping the character as if you were an author, instead of rolling for them like in a GAME! You also get to create NPC allies, enemies, dependants etc for the story. There are even freeform traits called "perks" that you create yourself! Not to mention the myriad disadvantages that DO NOT give you benefits during play like in a GAME, they create nuance and personality for your character and add complications to the storyline! #GURPS4Her"

Forgot to put this here:

[video=youtube_share;N5DJFtWaqWM]https://youtu.be/N5DJFtWaqWM[/youtube]

Quote from: RF Victor;1052620GURPS is not a storygame? You buy EXACTLY the stats you want with points, shaping the character as if you were an author, instead of rolling for them like in a GAME! You also get to create NPC allies, enemies, dependants etc for the story. There are even freeform traits called "perks" that you create yourself! Not to mention the myriad disadvantages that DO NOT give you benefits during play like in a GAME, they create nuance and personality for your character and add complications to the storyline! #GURPS4Her"

GURPS is a computer RPG that players play manually with paper and pencil. Players view disadvantages as simply points for buying things which are never referred to again during play.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1052845GURPS is a computer RPG that players play manually with paper and pencil. Players view disadvantages as simply points for buying things which are never referred to again during play.

Never worked that way when I played it. I can see how it would, if the GM didn't watch out..

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1052845GURPS is a computer RPG that players play manually with paper and pencil. Players view disadvantages as simply points for buying things which are never referred to again during play.

I emphatically disagree.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1052845Players view disadvantages as simply points for buying things which are never referred to again during play.

That's a common meta-optimization.  It's up to the GM to ensure that they do come up.

That was one of the things that drew me to Fate - the idea that your "disadvantages" only pay off when they actually disadvantage you.

Quote from: Itachi;1051249Oh yeah, if you're all into GURPS I can see how these games may bother you.

About Pendragon, I bet it would be considered a storygame if released these days. :p

Only morons would call Pendragon a storygame.

Quote from: robiswrong;1052857That's a common meta-optimization.  It's up to the GM to ensure that they do come up.

That was one of the things that drew me to Fate - the idea that your "disadvantages" only pay off when they actually disadvantage you.

I think it's worth mentioning that GURPS does have options to encourage this sort of 'active' buy-in from the player side, should you see that as an issue and seek answers within GURPS as a framework; Ham Clause, Impulse Points, Stability Points, etc. all being good tools to address this, with some Disadvantage methods such as Foibles going so far as to excise the initial point awards for Disadvantages entirely.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1052861I think it's worth mentioning that GURPS does have options to encourage this sort of 'active' buy-in from the player side, should you see that as an issue and seek answers within GURPS as a framework; Ham Clause, Impulse Points, Stability Points, etc. all being good tools to address this, with some Disadvantage methods such as Foibles going so far as to excise the initial point awards for Disadvantages entirely.

Nah, I think "don't be a dumbass" is sufficient.  Don't get me wrong, I love GURPS.

Quote from: robiswrong;1052873Nah, I think "don't be a dumbass" is sufficient.  Don't get me wrong, I love GURPS.

I would tend to agree with you. To be fair though, maintaining a general "don't be a dumbass" policy tends to be a pretty essential part of any game I run (and I would imagine probably in yours, too).

I just wanted to mention those tools/options for the benefit of those who might not be as intimately familiar with the GURPS framework (which to be fair is pretty extensive and fairly opaque from the exterior).

Shit dawg...


...looks like Grim Jim isn't helping the Pundito's case any.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll[In GURPS] Players view disadvantages as simply points for buying things which are never referred to again during play.

That reflects my experience too. I think the zero-sum rule for dis/advantages may promote that kind of thing, as players may end up getting things they didn't originally envisioned for their characters just to close the math.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1052845Players view disadvantages as simply points for buying things which are never referred to again during play.

Never really had that problem, myself.  Most of the players I've had over the years take Disads which either define the personality they already wanted to play or flesh out their character's background a bit.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1053184Never really had that problem, myself.  Most of the players I've had over the years take Disads which either define the personality they already wanted to play or flesh out their character's background a bit.

Another one on that side for me too.   Even the munchkiniest minmaxer I ever played with picked disads he actually wanted and role-played them through the campaign.

Quote from: Manic Modron;1053194Another one on that side for me too.   Even the munchkiniest minmaxer I ever played with picked disads he actually wanted and role-played them through the campaign.

Yep, and the GM can always look at the character sheet and say no to things that don't fit. If the player's obviously gaming the disad system, shut it down! You have the power.

I think my problem with GURPS disadvantages is that it lies entirely in the shoulders of the GM to use/invoke them once play begins, which makes them easy to be forgotten. I prefer games that make the concept more integral to play,  be it by rewarding players when invoked during the game, like Cortex+ traits that give you plot points, or by taking a more central role overall, like Pendragon virtue traits.

Quote from: Manic Modron;1053194Another one on that side for me too.   Even the munchkiniest minmaxer I ever played with picked disads he actually wanted and role-played them through the campaign.

In our home brew system, disadvantages are optional and convey no advantages. Like your comment though, my players consistently pick real disadvantages that come up multiple times an adventure or even apply all the time. One picked a disadvantage underground, knowing we were playing lots of modules where most of the adventure was underground. My wife picked disadvantage to stealth with the add-on that the character thinks she is stealthy. She even picked armor that made a lot of noise. That was real fun in the game.

Quote from: Itachi;1053215I think my problem with GURPS disadvantages is that it lies entirely in the shoulders of the GM to use/invoke them once play begins, which makes them easy to be forgotten.

I must have been with a really good group because that isn't my experience either.  The players I was with were very invested in their disads and we considered them the core of the characters.  The GM brought it up sometimes for sure, but mostly he didn't have to.

How did this turn into a GURPS thread?!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1053295How did this turn into a GURPS thread?!

I argued that even GURPS could be called a "storygame" if one has no idea of what a storygame is. But I wrote it as if I was defending this idea in the same way Tweet did it. I thought ending the post with "Gurps4Her" would make it clear enough it was a joke on Tweet's points and not an actual comment on GURPS!

PS: I love GURPS ; )

Quote from: RPGPundit;1053295How did this turn into a GURPS thread?!

Quote from: RF Victor;1053417I argued that even GURPS could be called a "storygame" if one has no idea of what a storygame is. But I wrote it as if I was defending this idea in the same way Tweet did it. I thought ending the post with "Gurps4Her" would make it clear enough it was a joke on Tweet's points and not an actual comment on GURPS!

PS: I love GURPS ; )

RF Victor did it, I saw him, it's all his fault!:p

Quote from: RPGPundit;1053295How did this turn into a GURPS thread?!

Maybe I have been on Usenet too long but I'm always happy when a thread on anything that goes this long does not include recipes.
Or guns. Or recipes for guns.

Yes. As long as it's still on the topic of RPGs, it's fine.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1053494RF Victor did it, I saw him, it's all his fault!:p

I was known to "try to turn everything into GURPS" back in the day. :p