Quote from: HackmastergeneralTake a few steps back, calm down, and take the high road.  Why walk in shit just because others choose to fling it?  Duck it, but throwing it back just stinks up YOUR hands, and the moment of glee when you slap someone in the face with a crap-ball isn't worth having the rest of the day stunk because you put your hands in shit.  Better to just take the high road, defend rationally and sanely, and not allow yourself to get dragged down.

Well, people have been telling me to calm down for years. Hasn't taken yet I'm afraid

As for walking in shit, I don't really have a problem with this site or the things Pundit says as a rule. I enjoy hanging out here and enjoy reading the posts.

And frankly, well, I think a lot of the things he says about protagonism and the attempt to eliminate the GM from RPGs and the Forge are um... correct.

But when I see bullshit, I'm going to call it and if I get pissed I'm going to SHOW it.

For me, that's what this site is FOR.

Otherwise I could go chill with Eric's grandma all day. Which is fine on a lazy Sunday afternoon before football comes on, but sometimes I want to go hit the speedbag too.

QuoteThe industry "professionals" who spread the rumors almost always had a new RPG in the pipeline that they were pegging a lot of their hopes on. Everyone seems to forget, but a lot of companies were betting their '06 strategies on 4.0 either announcing or releasing at GenCon.

This would be the key section, Chuck. It implies motive, perhaps even an understanding that they are up to mischief.  Maybe, maybe not. It's in the reading. Of course, I never said a word about enemy action.  Like I said, your take ignores that line, the Pundit's reads more into it. Neither one is a direct quote.

And believe me, I'm no fan of Forgeism.  I just don't see it as the great evil to destroy Roleplaying As We Know It (tm), cause its got a base of, what, a few hundred?

If White Wolf, with its big audience, couldn't take down Role Playing (at least according to Pundit), what chance does Spencer have? Zero to none.

Quote from: SpikeThis would be the key section, Chuck. It implies motive, perhaps even an understanding that they are up to mischief.  Maybe, maybe not. It's in the reading. Of course, I never said a word about enemy action.  Like I said, your take ignores that line, the Pundit's reads more into it. Neither one is a direct quote.

No, my take was more or less directly quoting the same line you did.

They "had products in the pipeline". That means they had products that were designed to put them in the best possible position if and when a new edition was released.

As for the other part of the quoted passage, every 3rd party RPG company pegs their hopes on every product. Nature of the beast.

You can ascribe nefarious motives to people I guess, but when someone takes an action (positions his company to do well in the face of 4e) and then publically says "I think 4e is coming soon", that doesn't really seem too inscrutable to me.


Edit: I mean, when people say a "company has a product in the pipeline they're pinning a lot of hopes on that would benefit from 4e", what they're really talking about are OGL and non-d20 games that work to develop a brand identity seperate from WOTC/D&D.

So we're talking books like Conan, Mutants and Masterminds, Spycraft 2.0 and True 20.

These aren't exactly radical steps that will fall down like a house of cards and ruin companies if 4e does NOT appear on the horizon.

So this notion that 3rd party companies have painted themselves into a corner and now desperately want 4e just doesn't pass the smell test for me.

Sure, this puts a company in a better position when 4e rolls around than if they were just writing core D&D modules and splat.

But it doesn't constitute some nefarious sceheme to undermine WOTC either.

QuoteHow come you dont give these nice speeches to Pundit and the assholes that overrun this place talking about everything under the sun?

Simple.  Because I actually respect you.And because I think that you are not yet gone.  

And I would hate to see someone I respect devolve to the same level as the Pundit.

You're better than that.

I don't choose to give pause to the Pundit because he is a lost cause.  A few good points, wrapped up in losing, forgetting, the very advice I just gave to you, and descending into rambling insanity.  

I have seen it in myself, and I have seen it in countless others all over the Internet.  I chose to extend you the courtesy of pointing out something that so many never realize, because I respect what you are now, and would hate for you to become something I would not.

Does that make my motives and decisions more clear?

Quote from: J ArcaneDoes that make my motives and decisions more clear?

It does. Thanks for thinking of me, I'll try to be less of an ass in the future, until I lose my temper again

Chuck

I still say 4e won't come out 'til ought-eight.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralHis blog is pretty much the laughingstock of the industry,

Ah yes.. the "industry"... by which you mean a few self-appointed wannabes who desperately try to present themselves as seriously professionals when in fact they're marginalized nobodies?

See, the real industry is guys like Mike Mearls, who is a reader of mine.  The fuckers you're talking about are the gang of misplaced Swine who are mostly responsible for pushing the hobby into the shithole it finds itself in today.  Fortunately, Wizards has rightly put them in their place: banished into the hinterlands of market obscurity.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HackmastergeneralAnd believe me, I'm no fan of Forgeism.  I just don't see it as the great evil to destroy Roleplaying As We Know It (tm), cause its got a base of, what, a few hundred?

If White Wolf, with its big audience, couldn't take down Role Playing (at least according to Pundit), what chance does Spencer have? Zero to none.

The thing is the White Wolf Swine were never the majority, or anywhere even close, but they came close to destroying the Industry because people stood by and did nothing, or gave up and left in frustration, or wrongmindedly joined on the bandwagon because they really fell for the idea that WW story-based gaming was the "superior" form of playing and didn't want people to think they were stupid.

Yeah, TSR was utterly fucked at that time too, and that was the single biggest factor in the whole deal, that they were intellectually and ideologically bankrupt.  And of course, today Wizards isn't.

But that's just right now. And it depends on people making sure that it never happens again.
Part of that is realizing that there are people who desperately WANT it all to happen again. People like Ron Edwards, who made his utter contempt for D&D obvious in the thread that was linked in this discussion.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThe thing is the White Wolf Swine were never the majority, or anywhere even close, but they came close to destroying the Industry because people stood by and did nothing, or gave up and left in frustration, or wrongmindedly joined on the bandwagon because they really fell for the idea that WW story-based gaming was the "superior" form of playing and didn't want people to think they were stupid.

No, they never were.  How about the fourth option:  Cause they thought it was fun?  I still game WoD, but I also game 3.5, and the ratio of D&D to WoD is 3 games to 2 for my group.  I gave up on AD&D because I hated the mechanics and the implimentation, but I never got my start in D&D, it was Marvel FASERIP.  I never viewed it as "superior" or anything, I just liked the world it was set in, and it was fun to play.

QuoteYeah, TSR was utterly fucked at that time too, and that was the single biggest factor in the whole deal, that they were intellectually and ideologically bankrupt.  And of course, today Wizards isn't.

But that's just right now. And it depends on people making sure that it never happens again.
Part of that is realizing that there are people who desperately WANT it all to happen again. People like Ron Edwards, who made his utter contempt for D&D obvious in the thread that was linked in this discussion.
RPGPundit

Well, thats his right, isn't it?  He doesn't like D&D and thinks it encourages exactly the type of gaming he finds to be boring and purile.  So, he's creating games that go along with his ideas.  Others find it to their liking as well.

You don't like Forge games, so you support your own thing.  And thats too cool for school.

However, the idea of Spencer causeing the downfall of D&D and Role Playing in general is one of the most laughable statements I've ever read.  Its like The Mouse That Roared, seriously.  Forge-ish games will NEVER equal 10% of the distribution of D&D.  The only thing that can fuck up D&D is Wizards dropping the ball.  And if it DOES drop the ball, theres noone out there positioned to pick it up, and that CERTAINLY isn't going to be anything remotely related to Forge.  In fact, it will likely be a 3rd Party publisher like Green Ronin or Mongoose who picks up the ball from WOTC.  Which means D&D  and d20 would continue on.  Plus so many people have 3ed material that even in WOTC goes under, d20 will still dominate the market as otehrs rush in to fill the void.  WW is firmly entrenched in 2nd place, and I can't see it really moving up, even in that circumstance.  I mean, it may become the #1 publisher if WOTC bites it, but that won't be because it increases sales, just because the D&D/d20 stuff will be spread out amongst several companies.

I LOVE 3.5, and this comes from a guy who hated AD&D with a passion.  But I like to game other stuff too.  I think thats far more common the the sort of stuff you're talking about.