Oh, and I forget the ultimate rule in this: you better be too early than too late. Too careful than careless.

So even if we assumed that companies like Green Ronin are anticipating the next D&D too early, you better fucking believe that this is much preferable to not anticipating it at all, not preparing for it and getting it up the butt.

It's like when I go hiking. Yeah, I tend to bring a little too much stuff for my personnal safety and yeah, some people have teased me about it. On the other hand, I have never had any trouble I couldn't handle, in any situation (and I've been in extreme unexpected temperatures and all kind of sudden crap). I've also bailed a few fellow hikers from trouble.

Better to always be on the safe side, IMO.

Quote from: Consonant DudeOh, and I forget the ultimate rule in this: you better be too early than too late. Too careful than careless.

So even if we assumed that companies like Green Ronin are anticipating the next D&D too early, you better fucking believe that this is much preferable to not anticipating it at all, not preparing for it and getting it up the butt.

It's like when I go hiking. Yeah, I tend to bring a little too much stuff for my personnal safety and yeah, some people have teased me about it. On the other hand, I have never had any trouble I couldn't handle, in any situation (and I've been in extreme unexpected temperatures and all kind of sudden crap). I've also bailed a few fellow hikers from trouble.

Better to always be on the safe side, IMO.

Glad to know I'm not alone, cuz I'm exactly the same way. I do the same in my cars too... first aid kit, emergency blanket (silver space-thing), spare water and energy bars, tire patch kit and mini-compressor, power inverter and spare cel-phone charger, flash light with spare batteries, etc. Like you, I have handled hiking boot sole-blow-outs with the small amount of duct tape I pack, spent a couple hours under the light-weight tarp along the side of the trail during an un-expected downpour, and fixed several flats wothout calling for help with the compressor and patch kit. It's nice to be prepared

Quote from: Consonant DudeOh, and I forget the ultimate rule in this: you better be too early than too late. Too careful than careless.

I think the explosion of non-fantasy and non-d20 games can be directly attributed to 3.5.

3rd party companies realized they HAD TO cut the apron-strings between their companies and WOTC. 3.5 saw a major crash in sales of 3rd party fantasy products.

Or course, this doesn't mean WOTC is evil... just that 3rd party companies had to realize that WOTC wasn't going to keep them in mind as it made decisions (nor should it).

For our part, we never WERE primarily a fantasy company, so we're in a slightly different position. I don't know if WOTC will ever release a "d20 Modern 1.5" but I doubt it.

And of course since we're primarily a PDF company we wouldnt have warehouse stock to liquidate if they did.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckBut hey, as long as you dumbasses get to chortle and dance and pat Pundit on the back as he calls people stupid idiots for expressing FACTS that you don't like, more power to you.

Chuck, exactly which facts don't I like?

Quote from: jrientsChuck, exactly which facts don't I like?

Well, the idea that speculating about the arrival of 4e could count as "enemy action", when everyone KNOWS it's about due, would seem to be a fact you don't like.

And of course, it's even funnier that you put those words in Mearls' mouth. HE never said it was enemy action, he said it was "bigger than a PR blitz", whatever that means.

Everyone and their brother has offered speculation about the arrival of 4e.

It's only natural that those of us who pay rent and put food on our tables with RPGs would speculate too right?

Nope. We're idiots for speculating.

And worse than idiots, we're engaging in enemy action.

Everyone is allowed to talk about 4e but us, apparently.

So is the biggest fear , from a publishers PoV, actually 4ed or is it the idea that WotC might not have it under an open license like 3.x?

Quote from: McrowSo is the biggest fear , from a publishers PoV, actually 4ed or is it the idea that WotC might not have it under an open license like 3.x?

Yes

I think 3.5 was a very valuable lesson for 3rd party publishers that they didn't need to ride WOTC's coattails...

In anything but fantasy products.

Companies vastly underestimated the effect of 3.5 on fantasy products made for 3.0. Some large fantasy books were released right before 3.5... this is now known to have been a serious mistake.

After 3.5, everything fantasy more or less crashed if made for 3.0. But products that were sufficiently different from 3.5 were largely unaffected.

This is why companies have shifted focus to non-d20 and non-fantasy products. It's a hedge against 4e.

Sure everyone still makes fantasy but the other lines are like saving for a rainy day.

3.5 showed companies that they needed to plan for 4e and gave them a good idea of what lines and types of products would be most effected.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckWell, the idea that speculating about the arrival of 4e could count as "enemy action", when everyone KNOWS it's about due, would seem to be a fact you don't like.

I'm sorry, Chuck.  I am having trouble parsing this.  You seem to be saying that I don't like the fact 'the idea that speculating about the arrival of 4e could count as "enemy action", when everyone KNOWS it's about due'.  That can't possibly be right, because it makes no fucking sense.  Could you please try again to tell me what facts I don't like?

I'm getting the impression that you're counting me as one of those people who pitches a fit when a new edition comes out.  While me and 3.x have had a colorful history, the record will show that I pretty much jump on the bandwagon with every new iteration of D&D.  Hell, if Mearls or one of the handful of other designers I like gets the job I'd look forward to a 4E with glee.

QuoteAnd of course, it's even funnier that you put those words in Mearls' mouth. HE never said it was enemy action, he said it was "bigger than a PR blitz", whatever that means.

Hey, I apologize if I interpreted Mearls wrong.  I hereby retract my claim that he approves of this line of thinking.

QuoteEveryone and their brother has offered speculation about the arrival of 4e.

It's only natural that those of us who pay rent and put food on our tables with RPGs would speculate too right?

Yes, just like it is natural for some with a vested interests to consider manipulating the public perception of the forthcoming new edition.

QuoteNope. We're idiots for speculating.

And worse than idiots, we're engaging in enemy action.

Did you not believe me when I said I wasn't talking about you?  Or is the suggestion that someone somewhere in the industry might not be playing completely fair so difficult a concept?

QuoteEveryone is allowed to talk about 4e but us, apparently.

At what point did I propose forbidding anyone from offering opinions?  Why do you seem so insistent on putting words in my mouth?

And seriously, this "I've got a family to feed" stuff is getting old, unless someone is forcing you to make your living this way.

Ah. In that context it makes the manager's actions at that store that was having a sale a lot more understandable.  Because he wasn't blowing out the WotC product itself.  Anything that was linked to 3.5 close enough in the customer's eyes but not WotC would become stale-dated much quicker.

Interestingly, if I recall correctly, the Iron Kingdom's books were originally meant for 3.0, and in fact I believe stated they still intended to use 3.0 rules/data for some aspects of the game.... such as it is.  Personally I almost missed out on the fact that there WAS a 3.5 out, seeing as i was rather busy at the time. The changes were minimal enough to my perspective that I still have a hard time grasping all the hubbub.

I always understood that the greatest changes were to certain spells... :confused:

One of the huge parts of the hubbub was that the changes were so small. Lots of them were hard to keep track of, and you might play your 3.5 game for months before realizing you were still using a 3.0 rule.

Quote from: James McMurrayOne of the huge parts of the hubbub was that the changes were so small. Lots of them were hard to keep track of, and you might play your 3.5 game for months before realizing you were still using a 3.0 rule.

Right, this leads to part of my confusion: If the changes were so small, why all the hubbub among third party people who... certainly in many cases, were often presenting far more 'setting' than 'system'. Setting isn't really affected by rules, and if you are presenting rules... they why are you worried if the rules you started from are different now? You still are selling YOUR rules.

See? The existance of 3.5 isn't the confusion so much, its the stuff tossed off in threads like this where people bitch about how WotC shot their dog and stole their bible.

I have no idea what the hubbub was about from a publisher's perspective. The only end of the business I see is the gamer's side.

I could see a problem in sales dropping though. I'm sure most products designed for 3.0 stopped being bought shortly after 3.5 came out. Not necessarily because they weren't compliant, but because there was the possibility they might be, and besides look at all these shiny new 3.5 books.

Quote from: SpikeRight, this leads to part of my confusion: If the changes were so small, why all the hubbub among third party people who... certainly in many cases, were often presenting far more 'setting' than 'system'. Setting isn't really affected by rules, and if you are presenting rules... they why are you worried if the rules you started from are different now? You still are selling YOUR rules.

See? The existance of 3.5 isn't the confusion so much, its the stuff tossed off in threads like this where people bitch about how WotC shot their dog and stole their bible.

It's not just "the publishers". That's what you fail to take into account. The minute 3.5 was announced, I (a consumer) and all my friends stopped buying 3.0 material. When 3.5 was released, I made sure from that point on to double-check and then triple check every D20 product out there to be sure that it was done for 3.5.

I suspect I am not the only consumer who did this. That is what publishers were probably worried about. It's not just what *they* think of their product. It's what they think *we* think of their product.