Quote from: Rincewind1;514644In case of losing a rulebook - great purchase indeed. Just wanted to point out that you're better off buying something else, rather then buy same book again (unless you are a bibliophile - who am I to judge).

Yeah, BRP is my favourite system ever I think. I've moved over to GUMSHOE for my CoC  needs, but if I ever do the Malazan Book of the Fallen campaign, I'll certainly use BRP for it.

Even if I still have my rule book,it was so old I probably would have made the purchase anyways (i hate reading musty books).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;514645Even if I still have my rule book,it was so old I probably would have made the purchase anyways (i hate reading musty books).

I like reading them, but I am terribly scared each time as I do so - while I am not a bibliophile, I am an avid reader who respects books. I probably should take my Warhammer 1e to a bookbinder some day. It's conditions are tragic, and chances of a reprint are slim at best.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;514591But it's never going to be. The rulebooks are a disaster and the game unplayable as written.

Yet probably several million people played it in the early 1980s. For an unplayable game, that's really strange. If you mean "there's no way to play exactly RAW because the rules aren't clear in places", few people cared about playing RAW back then. Worshiping at the altar of the god RAW just wasn't popular back then, even when Gygax was pushing playing D&D RAW in The Dragon in support of his dream of chess-like D&D tournaments with player ratings.

Quote from: RandallS;514648Yet probably several million people played it in the early 1980s. For an unplayable game, that's really strange. If you mean "there's no way to play exactly RAW because the rules aren't clear in places", few people cared about playing RAW back then. Worshiping at the altar of the god RAW just wasn't popular back then, even when Gygax was pushing playing D&D RAW in The Dragon in support of his dream of chess-like D&D tournaments with player ratings.

I don't really think playing RAW is that popular anywhere. Where did this bloody pox on body of gaming begin anyway? If there's something I hate, it's the Cult of RAW, as it's something that does actually crop in my real - life gaming quite a bit.

Quote from: Rincewind1;514649I don't really think playing RAW is that popular anywhere.

It's far more popular these days than I like.

QuoteWhere did this bloody pox on body of gaming begin anyway? If there's something I hate, it's the Cult of RAW, as it's something that does actually crop in my real - life gaming quite a bit.

I have no real idea how it became so noticeable given that even Gygax could not instill the "must play RAW or you aren't really playing the game" idea in even a sizable minority back when AD&D 1e was THE GAME and he was it's voice. I can't see any major advantage to playing RAW in a RPG as changing rules as needed allows the GM to customize the game for the specific needs of the players at the table and whatever setting and adventures the GM creates.  Note: It is an advantage for organized/tournament play, of course, but I have zero interest in organized play or RPG tournaments -- nor do most of the people I know or have known over the years.  Even the few people I know who played in "living campaigns" or in convention tournaments seldom played RAW at their "home campaigns."

Honestly I could care less what they put into the game as long as 4th Edition is never mentioned.  Maybe At-Will powers, nothing else.

That said, the only thing they need to do after the new edition is QUIT PUBLISHING NEW EDITIONS.

Seriously.

Quote from: Blackhand;514655That said, the only thing they need to do after the new edition is QUIT PUBLISHING NEW EDITIONS.

Seriously.

just like warhammer, right?

Quote from: beeber;514659just like warhammer, right?

Since you brought it up.

I've made this point before but lets go again.

A competitive wargame evolves in a much different fashion than a collaborative role playing game.  The competitive aspect keeps people doing the same things again and again in new settings.  How many times have your space marines rapid fired at a greater daemon this last year, compared to how many times you got a L20 Warlock with vapid powers to do basically the same in D&D?

For a wargame, when new models arrive it means new units, and new rules (or configurations thereof) are implemented to keep the tabletop war changing.  Unlike the needless edition changing of roleplaying games, a wargame can actually sees a lot of good things come about from a new edition.

I understand that RPG's do evolve, and 3e D&D was the same sort of medicine (IMHO) for the game that 40k got with it's 3rd.  However, WTFOVER on 4e, and even 3.5 just a few short years later.  3e was a huge evolution from 1 and 2, but 4e is almost universally reviled for not being the needed evolution, but a wild mutation that was unsustainable (cue Essentials backtalk).

When 40k went from 2nd to 3rd a lot of people griped about how it changed the game.  A few of my friends quit playing even.  I'm not sure why they were mad - 3rd edition was a natural progression of conventions on the table at the time of it's publication.  I remember reading the new rulebook going "holy shit they've done it.  This is what I wanted."

Time wears on, new codexes arrive, meaning new stuff, as I illustrated above.

Things get out of whack faster when they are used more.  The four year timeline that 40k and Fantasy Battle have been on since 2004 is working out well, and we're already planning our club events for the 6th edition release later this year.

By contrast, what the fuck is 5e really going to do?  I've got every edition of D&D published on my shelf right now.

Please tell me what the fucking problem is, other than they published 4e in the first place?  I'll wager anything 5e = 3e changed just enough to avoid more blowback over 4e.

Quote from: Blackhand;514666Please tell me what the fucking problem is, other than they published 4e in the first place?  I'll wager anything 5e = 3e changed just enough to avoid more blowback over 4e.

The fucking problem is a revenue cycle demanding results that traditional rpgs just don't provide.

The bigger the company, the worse it usually is for the products themselves because these companies are looking for consumers in a market filled with hobbyists.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;514676The fucking problem is a revenue cycle demanding results that traditional rpgs just don't provide.

The bigger the company, the worse it usually is for the products themselves because these companies are looking for consumers in a market filled with hobbyists.

So it's acknowledged that they just want money?

I was referring to the system itself, and what they claim is the reason behind the change.  That's rhetorical.  We already know what it is - 4e failed miserably and the people who bought the property want some money back.

They should have invested time and money very differently than they have since 3.5 was published, then since Hasbro has owned WotC.  They could still be doing D20 books.

Quote from: Blackhand;514666Please tell me what the fucking problem is, other than they published 4e in the first place?  I'll wager anything 5e = 3e changed just enough to avoid more blowback over 4e.

Alternate History: In 2008, WotC publishes a 4E which is basically 3E but with high level play (12th+) revamped so that it doesn't fall apart. They release it under the OGL.

Today? We're all grinning maniacs talking about how wonderful 4E is... and worrying that 5E is going to screw it up.

Because until WotC gets off the supplement-burnout track, they're never going to find a stable business model.

Chaosium got buried under a mountain of debt due to CCGs and then a really bad customer bankruptcy. Rather than ending they hunkered down and Charlie Krank just slowly ground away and paid themselves back to the black.

They publich slowly, rely a bit too much on pdf manuscripts, but publish a lot of great Mythos fiction books, a slow trickle of Call of Cthulhu, and have a good core Basic Roleplaying book.. but the glory days are definitely over.

The market is dead, we're a dying breed.

The CC & CCG market sucked a lot of wind out of many a company's sails. Rampant and baseless speculation has destroyed more than one market. This just happened to be one we enjoy, the smaller hobbyist market. And because of its relatively tiny, but generally self-sustaining, size it's just taking longer to deflate and recoup.

Market cycles fucked up by outsider speculative wankers is nothing new. RPG gaming will be here 30 years from now.

Quote from: beeber;514659just like warhammer, right?

WFRP 1e was indeed the best edition.

As for WFB and W40k - I usually say exactly the same stuff as Blackhand. Do not mistake competitive and cooperative games.

Quote from: Rincewind1;514870WFRP 1e was indeed the best edition.

As for WFB and W40k - I usually say exactly the same stuff as Blackhand. Do not mistake competitive and cooperative games.

Eh, that excuse is horseshit.  The Warhammer games get constant edition churn for the same reason RPGs do: money, and lazy development.  A new edition means more models to sell because, oops, I guess those old ones aren't legal now, and more army books to sell because, oops, the developer lost a match last week so that totally has to be nerfed.

By comparison, the Ground Zero Games line have all had the same rules for ages now, because they did them fucking right and no more modification is really required.