Tonight! 8pm Eastern! I'll be doing a Livestream where I will be talking about several of the latest gaming controversies, making a BIG announcement about my latest project, and answering your questions! Don't miss it!
#dnd #ttrpg #osr
https://www.youtube.com/live/7j9mhtwelXk?si=LHu4Z81XzO5rg53k (https://www.youtube.com/live/7j9mhtwelXk?si=LHu4Z81XzO5rg53k)
We're going live in 30 minutes!
What is the XP wars?
Probably the latest OSR/BrOSR/WotC-fan squabble on Twitter, over milestone leveling and the like.
Goodman Games incident and the de-wokification/propagandization of games have thus far been discussed. It's interesting content, I'd say, for those considering the livestream.
We also have confirmation on the identity of Pundit's presently favorite pipe, if folks are still sitting on the fence. ;)
Breaking news, we have a Meatball sighting, with unconfirmed head scritches!
And coming up next, ascots and scarves.
(Also topic-relevant content, but who cares about that. 8) )
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 04, 2023, 08:08:13 PM
Probably the latest OSR/BrOSR/WotC-fan squabble on Twitter, over milestone leveling and the like.
They really push milestones on Reddit. But reddit has a infestation of storygamers anyhoo.
Well, if you watch the livestream replay you will see what my position is on the subject. I have found the Third Way.
I like going from a baseline of "dead creatures make XP", then applying a multiplier (like in 3.5 I'd usually grant about 40% more XP), and then certain extremely important quests would grant XP as well (like if the PCs expose a group of spies and get them arrested). I want a baseline of thousands of XP between levels so that players can see where they are and understand that punching some bad guy will give XP (I want to incentivize them to go on missions to defeat monsters).
So for me the "best" solution has been anything based on XP-per-kills, because I can kick that easier into the shape that I want (as compared to small integral XP-per-session with bonuses for milestones, which Pundit talks about, and Sine Nomine uses a similar-ish thing baseline as well).
I'm very excited to get my hands on Baptism of Fire. I enjoyed Dark Albion a lot, and I loved the look of Sword and Caravan. Dark Albion even inspired me to run my own medieval inspired Kievan Rus' game.
Quote from: Omega on December 05, 2023, 06:16:02 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 04, 2023, 08:08:13 PM
Probably the latest OSR/BrOSR/WotC-fan squabble on Twitter, over milestone leveling and the like.
They really push milestones on Reddit. But reddit has a infestation of storygamers anyhoo.
Significant milestones, relative to the level of the PCs; merit them gaining a level. At least I like it that way.
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on December 07, 2023, 05:21:17 PM
I'm very excited to get my hands on Baptism of Fire. I enjoyed Dark Albion a lot, and I loved the look of Sword and Caravan. Dark Albion even inspired me to run my own medieval inspired Kievan Rus' game.
Well, hopefully it'll be ready by late December or early January.
I completely abandoned the D&D style XP system years ago. I give points for completing jobs, acquiring mysteries, and solving bosses. (Yes, solve not kill. If the party can neutralize the threat an enemy poses in any way, it's a win.)
In the end, XP is a carrot you can use to train your players to behave in a manner you want. Want murder hobos? XP for killing. Want valiant knights? XP for rescuing princesses. It's that simple. Oh, and always tell your players what they get XP for when you start a campaign.
Quote from: BadApple on December 08, 2023, 06:09:35 AM
I completely abandoned the D&D style XP system years ago. I give points for completing jobs, acquiring mysteries, and solving bosses. (Yes, solve not kill. If the party can neutralize the threat an enemy poses in any way, it's a win.)
In the end, XP is a carrot you can use to train your players to behave in a manner you want. Want murder hobos? XP for killing. Want valiant knights? XP for rescuing princesses. It's that simple. Oh, and always tell your players what they get XP for when you start a campaign.
Well it is simple, but as I said on the video, you have to really understand what it is you want to see happening in your campaign, because if you put conditions on getting xp, the things that grant you xp will be what they do.
One example of this is in games where you go up in abilities in skills only if you use them in a session. The result is that in those games most players will end up using more skills and different skills than they would in a D&D game, just because they're gaming the system.
If you want XP for rescuing princesses, great, but then expect your PCs to put aside other activities to just go find princesses to rescue.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 08, 2023, 07:18:07 PM
Quote from: BadApple on December 08, 2023, 06:09:35 AM
I completely abandoned the D&D style XP system years ago. I give points for completing jobs, acquiring mysteries, and solving bosses. (Yes, solve not kill. If the party can neutralize the threat an enemy poses in any way, it's a win.)
In the end, XP is a carrot you can use to train your players to behave in a manner you want. Want murder hobos? XP for killing. Want valiant knights? XP for rescuing princesses. It's that simple. Oh, and always tell your players what they get XP for when you start a campaign.
Well it is simple, but as I said on the video, you have to really understand what it is you want to see happening in your campaign, because if you put conditions on getting xp, the things that grant you xp will be what they do.
One example of this is in games where you go up in abilities in skills only if you use them in a session. The result is that in those games most players will end up using more skills and different skills than they would in a D&D game, just because they're gaming the system.
If you want XP for rescuing princesses, great, but then expect your PCs to put aside other activities to just go find princesses to rescue.
I absolutely agree. This is why communication is key. Players will act on what they think will get them XP and will go in wildly different directions if you don't let them know exactly what they did to get it.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 08, 2023, 07:18:07 PM
Quote from: BadApple on December 08, 2023, 06:09:35 AM
I completely abandoned the D&D style XP system years ago. I give points for completing jobs, acquiring mysteries, and solving bosses. (Yes, solve not kill. If the party can neutralize the threat an enemy poses in any way, it's a win.)
In the end, XP is a carrot you can use to train your players to behave in a manner you want. Want murder hobos? XP for killing. Want valiant knights? XP for rescuing princesses. It's that simple. Oh, and always tell your players what they get XP for when you start a campaign.
Well it is simple, but as I said on the video, you have to really understand what it is you want to see happening in your campaign, because if you put conditions on getting xp, the things that grant you xp will be what they do.
One example of this is in games where you go up in abilities in skills only if you use them in a session. The result is that in those games most players will end up using more skills and different skills than they would in a D&D game, just because they're gaming the system.
If you want XP for rescuing princesses, great, but then expect your PCs to put aside other activities to just go find princesses to rescue.
Yes, which is why I presume "rescue princess" was shorthand for "engage in traditional heroics."
Perhaps a more clear example would be that I would award experience for PCs displaying prudence/wisdom, justice, temperance, diligence/fortitude, faith, hope, and charity. To further promote cooperation I'd have each player make the case for why the OTHER PCs displayed one or more of the virtues (so to maximize your gains, be on good terms with your group... though the GM is the final arbiter).
I don't enjoy the concept of running a villainous campaign, but if ever did I'd likely award XP for displays of pride, greed, wrath, envy, lust, gluttony and sloth* and then have each argue for their own deeds.
* sloth would be defined for RPG purposes as "acting without care to duties or obligations" in accord with the Latin "acedia" that sloth is translated from because it's something actionable rather than gaining XP from just sitting around. So just doing nothing nets a villain nothing, but ignoring your duties to do what you want to do instead would be worth Villain XP.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 09, 2023, 05:09:53 PM
Perhaps a more clear example would be that I would award experience for PCs displaying prudence/wisdom, justice, temperance, diligence/fortitude, faith, hope, and charity.
Well, you're going to like Baptism of Fire, in that case.
After my interview/game night with Dave Arneson many years ago, I've mostly-ish adopted his view of "Succeed in the highly dangerous adventure? You gain a level!" which works very well for me (because my adventures are brutal, high casualty).
My views on XP are fairly flexible - players will generally align with the incentive systems you set up so they're worth considering carefully, but a lot of stuff works well enough that it can be tolerated. Nowadays I use XP for quests and specific objectives I try to tailor to the campaign and make that reward sheet explicitly known by players, but I've played plenty with GP = XP and it works great too.
Over the years, the only thing that I think consistently has not worked well is XP for combat. The primary penalty for dawdling or drawing too much attention in a dungeon is a random encounter. That encounter is supposed to burn your resources and encourage you to speed up play, maintain momentum, and think about how to maximize the impact of your time in the dungeon. If the only systematic means of gaining XP in a game is Combat, there's relatively little reason not to welcome a random encounter as another source of XP. Even if we exclude the possibility of gaining XP for random encounters, XP for combat still encourages a certain level of murder-hoboism. Why make peace among two factions if playing one against the other and then betraying the last faction standing gets you a mountain of XP? IME the GM usually doesn't grant an equivalent level of story or objective XP for pulling off something like a negotiated peace or truce.
One other system that I dislike immensely but works enough to limp along is milestone leveling. The biggest problem is that there's no incentive system at all, so play kind of degenerates into aimlessness which then finds a stable state either in murder-hoboism or story railroading imposed as top-down order from the GM. The second biggest issue is that it can't easily facilitate mixed-level groups (which IMO are essential to a healthy campaign's lifecycle).
One system I have mixed feelings about is Delta Green. It's a very organic advancement system for skills, but the fact that failures are necessary for advancement brings about weird player behaviors. Players end up trying to make rolls for anything/everything while the stakes are low to score cheap/free failures to get free advancement. Every system I've seen where failures are rewarded in this way (without an equal countermeasure of punishment) leads to this kind of weird metagaming.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 13, 2023, 03:27:33 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 09, 2023, 05:09:53 PM
Perhaps a more clear example would be that I would award experience for PCs displaying prudence/wisdom, justice, temperance, diligence/fortitude, faith, hope, and charity.
Well, you're going to like Baptism of Fire, in that case.
Given my dislike of OSR mechanics and playstyle, I doubt dropping an XP system I already use on top will encourage a sale, but I'm sure it will appeal to others and applaud the use of the virtues as foundation for character growth.