Well, Goodman games is in the retarded field too then, can't believe so many idiots fall into this crap.

Does anyone have anything on Kenzer and Company (creators of Hackmaster)?  They seem conspicuously absent from the list currently.

Quote from: Derek Sibrand on September 28, 2023, 03:20:36 AM
Does anyone have anything on Kenzer and Company (creators of Hackmaster)?  They seem conspicuously absent from the list currently.

I have no idea what their politics are, and that's fine with me.  I've never known them to venture into politics at all, on one side or the other.

Quote from: I on September 28, 2023, 05:27:04 AM

Quote from: Derek Sibrand on September 28, 2023, 03:20:36 AM
Does anyone have anything on Kenzer and Company (creators of Hackmaster)?  They seem conspicuously absent from the list currently.

I have no idea what their politics are, and that's fine with me.  I've never known them to venture into politics at all, on one side or the other.

I was pretty tight with Dave, Jolly, Brian, etc. back in the day when they had HM 4E. Got to run a couple of HM tournaments as well among other things (quite alot of partying at Origins and GenCon). Things pretty much fell off when they went their own way and redesigned HM to get out under the thumb of WoTC, but that's a whole other story I'm not sure I'm at liberty to speak about.

Anyway, so that should tell you I've had frank conversations about everything with them, including politics. Honestly, Dave and the rest of them keep their politics out of their product. They're smart enough to know to not alienate a significant part of their fanbase.

While you could probably justify adding Kenzer and Co. to Green because they leave their politics out of their product, I think it's probably best to simply leave them off all of the lists.  That's more in keeping with their philosophy.  If they want to stay out of politics, who are we to drag them in?

Quote from: I on September 28, 2023, 05:27:04 AM
I have no idea what their politics are, and that's fine with me.  I've never known them to venture into politics at all, on one side or the other.

For a couple years now we've seen arguments along the lines of "if they won't stand up for what's right (meaning $CURRENT_THING liberalism/leftism/socialjusticeism), then they must be wrong", which paints anyone who doesn't constantly post how much black lives matter or criticize institutional racism or doesn't get mad about Christopher Columbus or whatever as a super double wrongthinker.  This new brand of online-only activism runs around to groups that aren't vocally screaming out support for whatever bad idea they've had injected into their brain, and would sometimes harass any notable twitter account NOT participating.

There's been less of this since Musk bought Twitter, but I think a lot of it is just because twitter no longer amplifies their crap as reliably as before- we've seen many social activists run off to other platforms, which has, predictably, reduced their ability to get online compliance out of companies and individuals who are just trying to get along.  The attitude and sense of moral-crusade-supremacy these people have as they try to enforce various wokeness-angles hasn't really died down much, as listening to them on their own forums shows.

So by that standard, Kenzer and Company may as well be in the same box as whomever their current devil of the day is, because not loudly and fervently agreeing and granting full-voiced support to whatever history-destruction is called for on that given day is perceived as rebellion.

But yea they seem nonpolitical so far.

Quote from: I on September 28, 2023, 11:52:01 AM
While you could probably justify adding Kenzer and Co. to Green because they leave their politics out of their product, I think it's probably best to simply leave them off all of the lists.  That's more in keeping with their philosophy.  If they want to stay out of politics, who are we to drag them in?

I get the idea behind that, however if we're leaving off the apolitical companies, then wouldn't that apply to Troll Lord Games and the Basic Fantasy one as well?  And then what good would this list be as a guide?

So I see Pelgrane Press is on the Red list, however is there anything within the 13th Age books that's woke? The game seems pretty cool but I don't want to buy woke dogshit, nor do I want to financially support woke game devs that's ruining the hobby. But if there's nothing woke in the books, then maybe I could buy them used so Pelgrane doesn't get any money.

Quote from: Monero on September 28, 2023, 12:23:38 PM
So I see Pelgrane Press is on the Red list, however is there anything within the 13th Age books that's woke? The game seems pretty cool but I don't want to buy woke dogshit, nor do I want to financially support woke game devs that's ruining the hobby. But if there's nothing woke in the books, then maybe I could buy them used so Pelgrane doesn't get any money.

I have almost everything for 13th Age and can't recall a single instance of objectionable material. The upcoming second edition may be different, however. One of the first things they did was proudly announce how they were getting rid of "race" in favor of something else.

Quote from: I on September 28, 2023, 11:52:01 AM
While you could probably justify adding Kenzer and Co. to Green because they leave their politics out of their product, I think it's probably best to simply leave them off all of the lists.  That's more in keeping with their philosophy.  If they want to stay out of politics, who are we to drag them in?

Oh sorry I had missed this.  Almost the entire green list is people who want to stay out of politics.  Being on the green list isn't being dragged into anything.  It's literally the point of the list.

Quote from: Brand55 on September 28, 2023, 12:52:16 PM

Quote from: Monero on September 28, 2023, 12:23:38 PM
So I see Pelgrane Press is on the Red list, however is there anything within the 13th Age books that's woke? The game seems pretty cool but I don't want to buy woke dogshit, nor do I want to financially support woke game devs that's ruining the hobby. But if there's nothing woke in the books, then maybe I could buy them used so Pelgrane doesn't get any money.

I have almost everything for 13th Age and can't recall a single instance of objectionable material. The upcoming second edition may be different, however. One of the first things they did was proudly announce how they were getting rid of "race" in favor of something else.

Any word on when the second edition of 13th Age is coming out?

Quote from: Crusader X on September 28, 2023, 04:45:27 PMAny word on when the second edition of 13th Age is coming out?

Not sure. Last I heard, there was supposed to be a Kickstarter this year, but I haven't kept up with news on it. I don't plan on getting the new edition so it hasn't been on my radar.

Quote from: Venka on September 28, 2023, 01:06:54 PM

Quote from: I on September 28, 2023, 11:52:01 AM
While you could probably justify adding Kenzer and Co. to Green because they leave their politics out of their product, I think it's probably best to simply leave them off all of the lists.  That's more in keeping with their philosophy.  If they want to stay out of politics, who are we to drag them in?

Oh sorry I had missed this.  Almost the entire green list is people who want to stay out of politics.  Being on the green list isn't being dragged into anything.  It's literally the point of the list.

Yeah, I guess you're right.  Of course, while the intention of the Green list may be as a "safe" buying guide for us, there's nothing to prevent it from being used as a Red list for leftists.  But since a lot of the Green list consists of companies that are apolitical anyway, I suppose it doesn't matter.

Quote from: I on September 28, 2023, 11:52:01 AM
While you could probably justify adding Kenzer and Co. to Green because they leave their politics out of their product, I think it's probably best to simply leave them off all of the lists.  That's more in keeping with their philosophy.  If they want to stay out of politics, who are we to drag them in?

To my understanding, the Green list is specifically FOR companies that stay out of politics.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 29, 2023, 11:49:54 PM
To my understanding, the Green list is specifically FOR companies that stay out of politics.

Exactly. The goal isn't to find companies that virtue signal in a different direction. "Look I'm the opposite of woke, buy my products instead."
It's to find out companies that focus on a great customer oriented product and only on that and keep their political views to themselves.

I don't have any interest in exchanging one ideology for another. All I want is fun games.