Meh, the whole Shield Maidens nontroversy is one of the most overblown things in the whole trying to find the woke thing. I went through the whole free thing that they put out a while back with a fine tooth comb, and had to dig and read into it deep with my Culture War hat on to find the woke. It just comes off as petty.

Beyond the implication that trans characters can be Shield Maidens I didn't find much, and even there I don't care, considering that it's a gonzo Fantasy Cyberpunk setting, where having trans characters ain't inappropriate. I also don't mind gender specific classes and such, as long as it's setting appropriate. Though, I know that the same people who would rally around the pro-trans/gurl powah thing would cry if there was a male only class, but that's a different concern that goes beyond what's going on in that game.

Speaking of shitty RPGs, it seems Coyote & Crow got turfed off Paypal.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 27, 2023, 03:37:11 AM

Quote from: Marchand on March 26, 2023, 10:57:36 AM
Speaking of which, Mongoose still needs to go yellow after publishing Shield Maidens.

Do we go back to green when the new edition of Paranoia comes out?

I vote that you make us either green or red - condemn us or exonerate us!

According to the List, the Yellow criteria are:
Entities in this section have engaged in some questionable behavior, taken a political stance that may have alienated some customers or preached in their products. Entities here have not caused any harm or engaged in anti-consumer behavior. [my emphasis]

To my read, Shield Maidens trips the yellow bar. For clarity, I would personally really like to see Mongoose a solid bright green, but there it is.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 27, 2023, 07:02:59 AM
Meh, the whole Shield Maidens nontroversy is one of the most overblown things in the whole trying to find the woke thing. I went through the whole free thing that they put out a while back with a fine tooth comb, and had to dig and read into it deep with my Culture War hat on to find the woke...

You can't be looking very hard. Apart from the gendering of PCs, there is a very obvious ecomentalist, anti-capitalist-patriarchy subtext.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 27, 2023, 01:50:50 PM
Speaking of shitty RPGs, it seems Coyote & Crow got turfed off Paypal.

Link?

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 27, 2023, 04:47:43 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 27, 2023, 01:50:50 PM
Speaking of shitty RPGs, it seems Coyote & Crow got turfed off Paypal.

Link?

https://coyoteandcrow.net/2023/03/20/ending-our-relationship-with-paypal/

According to the creator, they were temporarily kicked off for supposed "sale of sexually oriented materials or services". Paypal later apologized and restored the account, but they are switching to other services based on the experience.

Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 05:42:19 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 27, 2023, 04:47:43 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 27, 2023, 01:50:50 PM
Speaking of shitty RPGs, it seems Coyote & Crow got turfed off Paypal.

Link?

https://coyoteandcrow.net/2023/03/20/ending-our-relationship-with-paypal/

According to the creator, they were temporarily kicked off for supposed "sale of sexually oriented materials or services". Paypal later apologized and restored the account, but they are switching to other services based on the experience.

His response is both pathetic and insufferable at the same time:

Quote
Dear "Mx.Paypal",

This response is entirely unsatisfactory and wholly unacceptable. You first suspended our business account with no notice and no explanation. Then your customer service process was not only incredibly difficult to navigate but once I did finally get a hold of a human being they were unable to do anything other than repeat your ridiculous assertions. Namely, that we were in violation of some sort of policy but that there were no details or specifics available, no ability to appeal or speak to anyone further and no other recourse. You then put a hold on my funds.

Now, you reply that in essence, you reviewed your own review and found that there was no violation. You then decided to be so magnanimous as to return my own account to me and give me access to my funds. However, since I don't know what caused the violation in the first place, I have to now contend with the idea that at any moment, you may lock my account for reasons that are completely opaque and out of my control.

So, in line with your own communication and procedure style, let me respond to you in a language you seem to understand. After reviewing PayPal Inc.'s recent activity, we've found that you've violated numerous Coyote & Crow Games policies and standards and we're ending our business with you permanently. We will not detail or specify the policies you've violated and there is no recourse for you. We realize that this email is likely being received by nothing but a bot or a sorely underpaid employee who rightly will not have a reason to care. This too is a violation of Coyote & Crow Games policy and standards.

Ill regards,
Connor Alexander

He is a literal spec on the assend of a gnat on the giant elephant that is Paypal. They could not give 2 shits for his hundreds of dollars gone through their system a month.  His "Mx. Paypal" beginning has me laughing at him even more.

Go broke sparky, sex-workers still won't sleep with you either even if they did take paypal.

He's got an elevated sense of importance. He also has a point: Paypal sucks.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on March 27, 2023, 03:37:11 AMOur official position on this is that we do not want to bring back the 19th century. Does not look like an awesome time for most people.

Well I more meant the ideologues that find you to be useful idiots. I wouldn't judge your company as any worse than a combination of well-meaning stupidity and moral cowardice.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 27, 2023, 07:02:59 AM
Meh, the whole Shield Maidens nontroversy is one of the most overblown things in the whole trying to find the woke thing. I went through the whole free thing that they put out a while back with a fine tooth comb, and had to dig and read into it deep with my Culture War hat on to find the woke. It just comes off as petty.

Holding people to their own standards is not petty. The people egging on these game designs go on all day about dog whistles and micro aggressions, then without a hint of irony push the most blatantly sexist and racist bile.

No game would ever be put out by even a middling company, that allowed only males, or was set in a Utopian future where only Europeans lived and prospered; yet Shieldmaidens and Coyote And Crow don't just exist, they are applauded.

Flip the sexes and races and not only wouldn't the games be made, if a stubborn person funded the creation privately they'd be bashed by the gaming press, banned from Drivethru, and money processors would refuse to deal with them. You're following Queensbury rules against people that'd stab you in the back, then dance on your grave.

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 27, 2023, 11:28:05 PM
No game would ever be put out by even a middling company, that allowed only males, or was set in a Utopian future where only Europeans lived and prospered; yet Shieldmaidens and Coyote And Crow don't just exist, they are applauded.

Shieldmaidens has an "Allies" supplement that allows for male PCs. This is pretty much the same as RPGs like the Deathwatch RPG playing all-male space marines -- or historical military RPGs like Weird War Two or WWII Operation Whitebox. Regular soldiers can't be female because they aren't allowed in the setting, but you can create rare exceptions like a French resistance member or Russian female unit.

---

Regarding the latter, 7th Sea is a fantasy world that wiped out all of Africa and the Americas. Here's the world map:



Years after initial publication, they did create a 2nd ed supplement that introduced parallels the missing continents. But then, maybe in a few years Coyote & Crow will come out with a supplement showing its version of alternate timeline Europe.

Quote from: jhkim on March 28, 2023, 12:51:55 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 27, 2023, 11:28:05 PM
No game would ever be put out by even a middling company, that allowed only males, or was set in a Utopian future where only Europeans lived and prospered; yet Shieldmaidens and Coyote And Crow don't just exist, they are applauded.

Shieldmaidens has an "Allies" supplement that allows for male PCs. This is pretty much the same as RPGs like the Deathwatch RPG playing all-male space marines -- or historical military RPGs like Weird War Two or WWII Operation Whitebox. Regular soldiers can't be female because they aren't allowed in the setting, but you can create rare exceptions like a French resistance member or Russian female unit.

---

Regarding the latter, 7th Sea is a fantasy world that wiped out all of Africa and the Americas. Here's the world map:



Years after initial publication, they did create a 2nd ed supplement that introduced parallels the missing continents. But then, maybe in a few years Coyote & Crow will come out with a supplement showing its version of alternate timeline Europe.

This is disingenuous, even by your standards.

Space Marines aren't males only because it will piss off women and lefty's, it's an organic lore conceit. And they had rules for Sororitas and female Inquisitors.

Shield Maidens is absolutely, positively about exclusion and pontificating for ideological reasons. It's designed to piss off the 'right people' and the allies book is guaranteed to make inferior characters.


As for 7th Sea, they didn't wipe out Africa and the Americas, they simply focused on their version of Europe. Then they expanded.

Whereas Coyote And Crow outright genocided everyone that wasn't American Indian, then said the survivors became super advanced Utopians without de evil Huwhite people around.

You should be ashamed at your attempt at equivalency, but I'm sure you're not.

Just to be clear for those that aren't familiar with 40k or the 40k games, Deathwatch was just one in a series of 40k games, all of which were connected and allowed for female players. Yes, the Deathwatch is an all-male group, but it works closely with non-Space Marines. In fact, most of the Inquisitors in the Deathwatch books were female to offset the all-male DW, and a GM could easily have one or more female Ordo Xenos Inquisitors work with a Deathwatch kill-team to run a campaign where both sexes were available canonically. Plus, Dark Heresy had already introduced the all-female Sisters of Battle (twice, technically, but primarily through the Blood of Martyrs supplement), so Deathwatch was really just balancing the scales.

On top of that, it's trivially easy to allow female Space Marines if that's what people prefer, and the 40k canon is so shaky anyway that it really doesn't affect it any.

Quote from: Brand55 on March 28, 2023, 01:07:39 AMOn top of that, it's trivially easy to allow female Space Marines if that's what people prefer, and the 40k canon is so shaky anyway that it really doesn't affect it any.

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 28, 2023, 01:09:32 AM

Quote from: Brand55 on March 28, 2023, 01:07:39 AMOn top of that, it's trivially easy to allow female Space Marines if that's what people prefer, and the 40k canon is so shaky anyway that it really doesn't affect it any.

LOL. Guilty as charged. "Everything is canon, but not everything is true." I can't count how many retcons and revisions GW has gone through in the 40k setting. I really didn't foresee them backtracking on the existence of Squats, though.

Quote from: Brand55 on March 28, 2023, 01:26:58 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 28, 2023, 01:09:32 AM

Quote from: Brand55 on March 28, 2023, 01:07:39 AMOn top of that, it's trivially easy to allow female Space Marines if that's what people prefer, and the 40k canon is so shaky anyway that it really doesn't affect it any.

LOL. Guilty as charged. "Everything is canon, but not everything is true." I can't count how many retcons and revisions GW has gone through in the 40k setting. I really didn't foresee them backtracking on the existence of Squats, though.

One just picks a time where their headcanon ends, and only let in stuff you find compatible with what's already in there. I consider myself a 40k lore fan, but only dribs and drabs from the last 15 or so years has made it in to my headcanon.

The same with comicbooks.

I find I'm much happier just ignoring shit changes, rather than raging about them. The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference.

PS - Marines being No-Girl-Cooties-Boys-Only-Club is a rock solid piece of lore. It will never change from powercreep or bad editing, but only from ideological surrender.

Quote from: Marchand on March 27, 2023, 04:26:20 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 27, 2023, 07:02:59 AM
Meh, the whole Shield Maidens nontroversy is one of the most overblown things in the whole trying to find the woke thing. I went through the whole free thing that they put out a while back with a fine tooth comb, and had to dig and read into it deep with my Culture War hat on to find the woke...

You can't be looking very hard. Apart from the gendering of PCs, there is a very obvious ecomentalist, anti-capitalist-patriarchy subtext.

Looking very hard at it through a hyper analytical anti-woke lens is the ONLY way you can see it, which was precisely my point. NO normal person would be able to look at this and immediately think "this is woke AF". Aside from like one or two sentences in the entire thing, only someone immersed in the culture war from the other side of the aisle can find the woke in it, and only by giving it the most uncharitable "anything that even remotely reads as leftist politics = automatically woke" interpretation.

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 27, 2023, 11:28:05 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 27, 2023, 07:02:59 AM
Meh, the whole Shield Maidens nontroversy is one of the most overblown things in the whole trying to find the woke thing. I went through the whole free thing that they put out a while back with a fine tooth comb, and had to dig and read into it deep with my Culture War hat on to find the woke. It just comes off as petty.

Holding people to their own standards is not petty. The people egging on these game designs go on all day about dog whistles and micro aggressions, then without a hint of irony push the most blatantly sexist and racist bile.

No game would ever be put out by even a middling company, that allowed only males, or was set in a Utopian future where only Europeans lived and prospered; yet Shieldmaidens and Coyote And Crow don't just exist, they are applauded.

Flip the sexes and races and not only wouldn't the games be made, if a stubborn person funded the creation privately they'd be bashed by the gaming press, banned from Drivethru, and money processors would refuse to deal with them. You're following Queensbury rules against people that'd stab you in the back, then dance on your grave.

You're not holding them to their own standards, you're just foaming at the mouth at anything that even remotely looks like it MIGHT be "woke" or have a hint of "left" leaning (like vaguely anti-capitalist themes--in a CYBERPUNK game, like that isn't a fucking feature of the genre) and raging at a game with a basic core concept that ANY normal person not immersed on the culture war crap would immediately think is cool "Holy crap! Vikings in a cyberpunk world with longhouse urban sprawls, energy shields and runic cybertech? TAKE MY MONEY!!!". And you're doing it in an obscure TTRPG forum in a remote corner of the internet where no one outside of this would even look at it, unless it got shared by people using it as "evidence" that people on the anti-woke side are insane (and likely bigoted) too.

Trust me, NO ONE outside this forum is looking at this like you're Alinskying this shit by picking on Shieldmaidens. With Coyote & Crow the guy is a bigoted asshole at least, and some of the basic premises are a bit iffy if you think hard on them (a bunch of stone age primitives turned into a super advanced tech utopia in a few centuries stat, just because Europe got conveniently wiped out by a meteor?), and even then some of the core premises are kinda cool, just iffy AF and published by a complete asshole.