Quote from: FingerRod on March 03, 2023, 09:24:47 AM
Arcane Library is from all appearances apolitical and has good content. This KS is on pace to be one of the largest since Mothership, so I would say they are worthy of a spot on the Green list.

I agree, they should be Green. The KS lacks any mention of DIE, woke, safety tools and the usual signals. I don't care what their politics are they're doing a great job keeping it that way.

Yeah I agree they look solid

Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 01, 2023, 01:16:07 AM
And another chuckle I found today on Drivethru -- Beyond Deep by Wesley Ascolese and Chris Koger.

Certain people are not welcome under their big tent. Here's the preface:

Oof... hard pass.  I appreciate the warning.  I'd rather not give money to people who hate me.

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 03, 2023, 09:58:07 AM
I agree, they should be Green. The KS lacks any mention of DIE, woke, safety tools and the usual signals. I don't care what their politics are they're doing a great job keeping it that way.

I'll also add that Kelsey has been around for years and clearly has support in the community, so is certainly notable enough as a writer and designer for inclusion on the list.

Quote from: Venka on March 03, 2023, 12:37:46 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 03, 2023, 09:58:07 AM
I agree, they should be Green. The KS lacks any mention of DIE, woke, safety tools and the usual signals. I don't care what their politics are they're doing a great job keeping it that way.

I'll also add that Kelsey has been around for years and clearly has support in the community, so is certainly notable enough as a writer and designer for inclusion on the list.

BUT BUT she's a GURL!!! GURLS have COOTIES!!! 

Quote from: S'mon on March 03, 2023, 12:45:42 PM
BUT BUT she's a GURL!!! GURLS have COOTIES!!! 

If Ocule writes all the girls in pink I may legitimately die laughing.

Quote from: mudbanks on March 03, 2023, 09:27:34 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 03, 2023, 09:24:47 AM
Arcane Library is from all appearances apolitical and has good content. This KS is on pace to be one of the largest since Mothership, so I would say they are worthy of a spot on the Green list.

Yeah the fact that she responded well to Pundit despite being called out for potentially paying for reviews (and Pundit being a controversial figure), I'd say she's green.

Still not going to back the product as it uses Ancestry rather than Race (I'm a stickler for tradition), and I've got more than enough OSR/old-school games going around.

I know its petty, but using Ancestry instead of Race just rubs me the wrong way.

I did watch Questing Beast's and Dungeon Craft's videos on the system - it had some things I liked and some things I very much did not like.  Overall, it doesn't seem like the system for me, but I do wish her luck in this endeavor, as she seems to stay apolitical and just wants to make a good product for people.

Quote from: erc1971 on March 03, 2023, 05:19:30 PM

I know its petty, but using Ancestry instead of Race just rubs me the wrong way.

I did watch Questing Beast's and Dungeon Craft's videos on the system - it had some things I liked and some things I very much did not like.  Overall, it doesn't seem like the system for me, but I do wish her luck in this endeavor, as she seems to stay apolitical and just wants to make a good product for people.

Yeah I'm happy for her that the campaign is successful. Shows that games that aren't far-left pandering can succeed too.

Quote from: jhkim on March 02, 2023, 05:30:01 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 02, 2023, 07:19:22 AM
Does anyone know anything about Kelsey Dionne and the Arcane Library? I mean, I only just heard of her "shadowdark" book at all today. When i also in very short order learned it uses a system very similar to Lion & Dragon's background, xp, and especially level benefits (random tables) system. And that she paid Dungeoncraft and Questing Beast to do Infomercials disguised as "reviews". Questing Beast at least had the courtesy to say so right at the start of the video.

Pundit - when you cite the similarities to Lion & Dragon, I'm not sure what the point is. Are you just saying that you and she have similar taste as game designers, which is presumably a compliment to her? Or are you implying that there is something unethical about the similarities between Lion & Dragon and Shadowdark?

It was absolutely not meant to be an accusation, but she took it as such, which really shocked me. Because since she has so many OSR mechanics that she used, i mean:

0-level characters: DCC, Lion & Dragon
Random background: Lion & Dragon, several other games
Random Level Advancement: Lion & Dragon
No Darkvision: almost every OSR game

And those are just the ones I could think of right now... it was my assumption that even if I didn't know her she must follow the OSR (blogs, youtube, twitter) and knows how our culture goes, and knows that we love to brag about other people taking inspiration from our mechanics or even the kind of mechanics we want to see more of in design, etc.

But she didn't. She thought it was a kind of hit, and got defensive.  meanwhile I had people in the OSR all telling me "who is this person"? Literally NO ONE in the OSR I spoke to had ever heard of her until this week. And some people suggested to me that it seemed like the reviews were all weirdly positive and gushing and often having some of the same talking points, as if it was all being stage-managed, and there was a suggestion that some reviews were paid for.

I checked around and found out Questing Beast took money for his "review" (its not a review then, it's an infomercial, and QB isn't a reviewer, he's a prostitute), and I assumed that if there was one there was likely to be more. Since the other one that was being heavily pushed was dungeoncraft, and his was even MORE reverential and gushing with praise than QB, I went and asked him if he was paid for the "review". Since he didn't immediately answered, I went to suggest that some people, LIKE QB or himself, seem to have taken money for their reviews.

And I mean, that's literally true: PDM's review was MORE of an infomercial then the guy who was actually paid to do it.

Now, PDM has said he took no money, and I'll choose to believe that, he's just a simp. Arcane says ONLY QB took money, which is like saying you only put your dick in the mashed potatoes once, so it's fine to serve them for sunday dinner. But I also choose to believe her.

It doesn't change the fundamental problem: the influencer culture is toxic, especially when united to the millennial bullshit about "you can't say anything mean", and the whole thing looks prefabricated.  I'm not the only one who thinks so, I'm just the only bigger name in the OSR who had the balls to say it in public (rather than in DMs to me).
It's literally the worst way to market to an anti-corporate anti-establishment anti-influencer anti-woke counter-culture movement like the OSR.
But the reality is she ISN'T marketing to us. She's marketing to 5e... to all those kids who never discovered the OSR, and so they look at her game (which looks like a good 2nd wave osr ruleset but doesn't seem at first glance to have anything absolutely original, just clever reworkings of existing innovations you can find in multiple OSR books) and they think its Crazy Innovative because they think she's the first person EVER to think about 0 level characters or rolling levelling bonuses or rolling spell checks or whatever.

And she's inviting all the 5e people to come to the OSR, but not to join the culture of the OSR, but rather to INVADE it with the 5e "community values" that frankly make that fandom so toxic. Now I'm not saying she is being malevolent in her intention, she's doing all this without any real thought for the culture clash that will inevitably follow. But she obviously LOVES the design culture of the OSR, way more than she likes 5e; so she has to figure out that if she wants 5e to become more like the OSR, instead of the OSR being ruined by 5e fans, she needs to teach this wave of immigrants how to integrate and adopt OUR values, rather than trying to impose the values they're fleeing from on our culture, starting with herself.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 03, 2023, 09:24:47 AM
Arcane Library is from all appearances apolitical and has good content. This KS is on pace to be one of the largest since Mothership, so I would say they are worthy of a spot on the Green list.

I agree, BTW, green list thus far.

Quote from: Venka on March 03, 2023, 12:37:46 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 03, 2023, 09:58:07 AM
I agree, they should be Green. The KS lacks any mention of DIE, woke, safety tools and the usual signals. I don't care what their politics are they're doing a great job keeping it that way.

I'll also add that Kelsey has been around for years and clearly has support in the community, so is certainly notable enough as a writer and designer for inclusion on the list.

What community? I wasn't able to find a single OSR designer so far who had ever heard of her until now.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 02:02:37 PM
But the reality is she ISN'T marketing to us. She's marketing to 5e... to all those kids who never discovered the OSR, and so they look at her game (which looks like a good 2nd wave osr ruleset but doesn't seem at first glance to have anything absolutely original, just clever reworkings of existing innovations you can find in multiple OSR books) and they think its Crazy Innovative because they think she's the first person EVER to think about 0 level characters or rolling levelling bonuses or rolling spell checks or whatever.

And she's inviting all the 5e people to come to the OSR, but not to join the culture of the OSR, but rather to INVADE it with the 5e "community values" that frankly make that fandom so toxic. Now I'm not saying she is being malevolent in her intention, she's doing all this without any real thought for the culture clash that will inevitably follow. But she obviously LOVES the design culture of the OSR, way more than she likes 5e; so she has to figure out that if she wants 5e to become more like the OSR, instead of the OSR being ruined by 5e fans, she needs to teach this wave of immigrants how to integrate and adopt OUR values, rather than trying to impose the values they're fleeing from on our culture, starting with herself.

This seems like a huge amount to ask of anyone. She's a writer/publisher, she wants people to buy her game. She goes where the money is - disaffected 5e players.
I think it's great if lots more people play OSR as a result of this.
It's even more great if they adopt some OSR values & play style.
I don't believe this will 'ruin the OSR culture', the decentralised nature of the OSR makes it basically un-ruinable. That is its secret and its strength. How many Wokester attacks has the OSR already absorbed and shrugged off? And this is not an attack. AFAICS, it's a good thing.

Arcane Library had a Q&A stream a bit earlier today.  I did not watch the whole thing, but what I did watch was laser focused on the mechanics of the game.  No politics at all - and this is a good thing.  So I will add my completely irrelevant approval for the green list

I do agree it is bizarre how Arcane Library went from never heard of them to the biggest thing since sliced bread in a day.  She did something right though, marketing genius.  I won't ever blame anyone for paying for advertising or accepting money to advertise - everyone deserves to be paid for their work.  I am pleased that Questing Beast was up front about it, so kudos to him there.  Transparency is something I do want when someone does a review.

When it comes to Dungeon Craft - I don't think he reviews products he doesn't like, as I have never seen him be anything but 100% praiseworthy towards anything he has reviewed.  If I am mistaken on this, let me know, I am old now and my brain forgets stuff now and then!  Also, Dungeon Craft is tight with Questing Beast, so QB might have really liked the book and spread the word to him.

Quote from: erc1971 on March 04, 2023, 04:45:57 PM
Arcane Library had a Q&A stream a bit earlier today.  I did not watch the whole thing, but what I did watch was laser focused on the mechanics of the game.  No politics at all - and this is a good thing.  So I will add my completely irrelevant approval for the green list

Listening to it now. Good crunchy OSR stuff.

She mentions a design aim of opening the whole OSR up to 5e players. I fear Pundit's fear of mobs of 5e players playing OSE and maybe even Lion & Dragon may come true. 

Edit: No Raise Dead in the game! Pretty hardcore! 

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2023, 02:08:40 PM
What community? I wasn't able to find a single OSR designer so far who had ever heard of her until now.

I was gonna say "the broader TTRPG community" but actually maybe just "the 5ed community".  Certainly she's given interviews to youtubers and her products have been discussed on reddit before.  Even this new reasonably OSR-like product has been pointed more at existing 5e players, a reasonably large group.