Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 03:04:04 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on November 26, 2022, 02:56:22 PM
Ooohhh, this is fun. Popcorn and soda ready.

It's fun watching lefties post in this old thread trying to convince of how bad wrong it is. All the time I wonder how long they're going to last.

Exciting

As long as it's fun to do so, or until I get frustrated by people repeating misinformation they heard somewhere. Which is likely pretty soon, since I have better uses of my time than to argue against people who talk like RPG pundit.
Other funny thing, btw: I never said the list itself was bad. You'll notice you're putting words in my mouth. As others have said, it's actually extremely useful to know which people to support. What I'm pointing out is incoherency, inconsistency, and the general fact that "engages in anti-consumer behaviour" can simply mean "doesn't allow bigoted insults at their gamestores".

Edit: if someone wants sources to learn about leftist theory, free speech and how it interacts with Nazis and the paradox of tolerance, feel free to ask.

No, I feel like I've correctly articulated your position on the list. Listen, we're all veterans of forums and we all smell bull when we see it. There's no claims of innocence and the forum is aware of what you're trying to do.

Quote from: Ocule on November 27, 2022, 09:50:19 AM
Just updated Delta Green, already in red but check out the writers Twitter Dennis Detwiller this has to be a record for most degenerate author.

Also this guy Shane Ivey not as bad but still a huge cunt.

Besides Shane Ivey's alleged desire to support transitioning children what else has he done?   

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 03:04:04 PM
Edit: if someone wants sources to learn about leftist theory, free speech and how it interacts with Nazis and the paradox of tolerance, feel free to ask.

When conservatives/libertarians/freedom lovers make a list people are free to ignore, it's "hypocrisy".
When liberals/statists/fascists censor and demonize all dissent in the name of inclusiveness, it's a "paradox of tolerance".
We did our research on leftist theory already.  Your "sources" are for keeping ignorant people away from the truth.  And what they're trying to do to my school children in the state where I live is reprehensible.
God bless the list.

Just found out I am already blocked by Dennis Detwiller on Twitter, even though we never had any kind of contact, so that says a lot about him (and, probably, his company)

Quote from: jaseoffire on November 27, 2022, 12:28:59 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 26, 2022, 11:21:15 PM
IAmBecomeTheQueen,

First, if you want to discuss your leftist delusions, Pundit has a forum dedicated to such discussions.  Start a thread there and I'm sure folks will be happy to demolish you.  But stop crapping up this thread with posts that don't directly address the topic (CRT, letc.) because Pundit has been very clear about the consequences.

Secondly, this list isn't for you.  You are not the target demographic for it.  So don't waste your time writing long criticisms of it, because your opinions on it don't matter.  It's not for you.  Just accept that we don't care what you think about it.  It serves a purpose for us, so your complaints are irrelevant.

Now, you see, that's the type of exclusionary language that is generally frowned upon. Also, I don't think IAmBecomeTheQueen has really gone too off topic, though I suppose the freedom of speech conversation should probably find a new home. I'm not sure about the historical conversation as Ocule does challenge a branch of historical analysis in the list directly, even going as far as to have it as a reason for making a company red. This in turn, opens the rabbit hole of discussing that angle to discuss the company's placement. Like it or not, anyone may find value in the list, and I should hope that we strive for some sort of consistency that makes sense to more than just us. I guess that will be up to pundit to make that call as to how off the rails we've gotten.

False.  That kind of "exclusionary" language is used all of the time by the left.  They tell me what topics I am allowed to have an opinion on because of my race, my sex, and my political beliefs all of the time.  They delineate spaces I'm not allowed to enter, movies I'm not allowed to see on opening weekend, people I'm not allowed to talk to or about, and games I'm not allowed to play in the "wrong" way.  The very people this list identifies are the greatest practitioners of exclusion in society today.  They invented "cancel culture"!

So, I don't know who you are asserting "frowns upon" exclusionary language, but it's not the people on the list, or even IAmBecomeTheQueen, as his posts directly support censorship of certain ideas ("bigotry").  So, no one in this conversation is against exclusion.  It's simply a matter of "who" and "why".  This list chooses "who" based on whether or not the company can keep its politics out of its products.  The "why" is because we want games to be games, not propaganda or political screeds.  This is unacceptable to the folks on that list.  They don't see fun or entertainment as the primary purpose of their games.  No problem, I just need to know whose game isn't for me.

So go concern troll (or sock puppet) elsewhere.  Because the real problem in gaming right now is that we weren't exclusionary enough.  We welcomed everyone, including people who had no interest in our gaming, and just saw our hobby as a means to a political end.  And they should have been excluded a long time ago!

Quote from: THE_Leopold on November 27, 2022, 10:41:57 AM

Quote from: Ocule on November 27, 2022, 09:50:19 AM
Just updated Delta Green, already iin red but check out the writers Twitter Dennis Detwiller this has to be a record for most degenerate author.

Also this guy Shane Ivey not as bad but still a huge cunt.

Besides Shane Ivey's alleged desire to support transitioning children what else has he done?

You mean other than grooming or sexually abusing children? It's not alleged it says it right there in his bio. I assume he runs his own Twitter. He has a pretty open contempt for conservatives in general if you scroll through his feed. He has your bog standard west coast wokist. I'm not sure when he was bitten by a wokist but at this point I think that's how it spreads

Though Dennis is the one who is running around calling people chuds and shit.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 27, 2022, 11:49:03 AM

Quote from: jaseoffire on November 27, 2022, 12:28:59 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 26, 2022, 11:21:15 PM
IAmBecomeTheQueen,

First, if you want to discuss your leftist delusions, Pundit has a forum dedicated to such discussions.  Start a thread there and I'm sure folks will be happy to demolish you.  But stop crapping up this thread with posts that don't directly address the topic (CRT, letc.) because Pundit has been very clear about the consequences.

Secondly, this list isn't for you.  You are not the target demographic for it.  So don't waste your time writing long criticisms of it, because your opinions on it don't matter.  It's not for you.  Just accept that we don't care what you think about it.  It serves a purpose for us, so your complaints are irrelevant.

Now, you see, that's the type of exclusionary language that is generally frowned upon. Also, I don't think IAmBecomeTheQueen has really gone too off topic, though I suppose the freedom of speech conversation should probably find a new home. I'm not sure about the historical conversation as Ocule does challenge a branch of historical analysis in the list directly, even going as far as to have it as a reason for making a company red. This in turn, opens the rabbit hole of discussing that angle to discuss the company's placement. Like it or not, anyone may find value in the list, and I should hope that we strive for some sort of consistency that makes sense to more than just us. I guess that will be up to pundit to make that call as to how off the rails we've gotten.

False.  That kind of "exclusionary" language is used all of the time by the left.  They tell me what topics I am allowed to have an opinion on because of my race, my sex, and my political beliefs all of the time.  They delineate spaces I'm not allowed to enter, movies I'm not allowed to see on opening weekend, people I'm not allowed to talk to or about, and games I'm not allowed to play in the "wrong" way.  The very people this list identifies are the greatest practitioners of exclusion in society today.  They invented "cancel culture"!

So, I don't know who you are asserting "frowns upon" exclusionary language, but it's not the people on the list, or even IAmBecomeTheQueen, as his posts directly support censorship of certain ideas ("bigotry").  So, no one in this conversation is against exclusion.  It's simply a matter of "who" and "why".  This list chooses "who" based on whether or not the company can keep its politics out of its products.  The "why" is because we want games to be games, not propaganda or political screeds.  This is unacceptable to the folks on that list.  They don't see fun or entertainment as the primary purpose of their games.  No problem, I just need to know whose game isn't for me.

So go concern troll (or sock puppet) elsewhere.  Because the real problem in gaming right now is that we weren't exclusionary enough.  We welcomed everyone, including people who had no interest in our gaming, and just saw our hobby as a means to a political end.  And they should have been excluded a long time ago!

Hmm. Concern troll. That's a new one. Look, I get it. In many ways I agree with you. We've allowed very toxic elements into our community. The issue wasn't their inclusion, though. It was, at some point, their ascent to power. It's one thing to listen to the input of someone else, and it's a whole other matter to allow them to dictate policy. This is, alas, what happened to Wizards. Regardless, as I and another poster pointed out, we can't allow ourselves on either side to fall into an echo chamber. In the end, this is a public guide, and anyone can consume it. This is a public discussion, and anyone can comment on it. For all of our sakes, this is good.

Quote from: jhkim on November 26, 2022, 01:40:44 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2022, 08:52:58 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 24, 2022, 08:28:11 PM
I'm pretty sure that the original TSR started hiring sensitivity readers back in 1980 after they had to pull the module B3 "Palace of the Silver Princess" from the shelves for controversial material. They just didn't use that name for them at the time. Publishers always review the content of material they publish in case it will cause undesired controversy. That's not communism or theocracy; it's capitalism.

So you would support a company hiring a bunch of Evangelical Christians to review their media and remove anything they find objectionable?

The term isn't "sensitivity reader". It's CENSOR. With an element of Cultural Commissar.

I have no objections at all to a company choosing to publish only Evangelical Christian approved media, and hires consultants to assure that. I suspect that explicitly Christian RPGs probably have already done so, like Dragonraid, Vägen, or the Holy Lands RPG.

Companies should be able to hire whatever authors, editors, and consultants they want to create their products. For example, if Kortthalis Publishing wants to hire Christian consultants for their anti-abortion module, "The Good Syma'arian" - they are free to do so and I have no objection. If a company's own hired editor or consultant changes material, that's the company's business and they have the right to do so. That's what editors are for.

I realize that there are people who are outraged if a company publishes conservative material, and there are also people who are outraged if a company publishes woke material. My ideal is if both exist. There can be some companies that only publish Evangelical Christian RPGs, and that's fine, as long as other companies can publish different material.

False argument. It's not "what if Bible Bill's RPG Publisher" was using Christian censors. It's "What if HASBRO Was Using Conservative Christian Censors"?
And the answer is you and every other leftist would be shitting their pants in rage.

Because we currently have the same situation. A Death Cult has taken over Hasbro and many other corporations and is using the media those corporations produce to make propaganda and ideological indoctrination for their ideological cult of tyranny, child sacrifice and degeneracy.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 12:46:09 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2022, 08:36:11 PM
If you're running a Medieval-Authentic game in the Holy Land, or in Byzantium, or some of the Mediterranean areas, you would likely see (in the largest population areas/cities) a mix of various ethnic groups. If you were in northern France or in England, outside of the largest ports, population would be extremely native. The problem with "Brittania Games" is that they're engaging in the ridiculous bullshit of Critical Theory attempts at approaching history, where the goal is from the start to try to claim that western culture was evil (they never care about any of the atrocities of any other culture, nor do they seem to demand that any other culture be multicultural or else it is evil), they try to claim that somehow culture and race are tied together, and then try to claim that people of a given ethnic group have no claim at a "genuine culture" because there "were always people of color" in that society, but often their examples of the "always" not one in five or one in ten, it's not even one in a hundred or one in a thousand. They find the weirdest cases and the rarest exceptions, which they then try to twist into claiming was the medieval norm.

And note, even in those areas where there were cosmopolitan mixtures of ethnicities, what you didn't have was a blended globalist progressive society in the style of 2022 leftism. Which is what they always want to turn settings into, to suggest the end of history, year zero, etc.

Of course, a black person in, say, 12th century England is exceptional. But then, lots of adventurers are special, aren't they?. Wizards and clerics are supposedly rare in lots of settings, yet the party can choose to play one. The book doesn't say "there are lots of chinese immigrants in medieval London", does it? You're just exaggerating and strawmanning that quote. Unless you can actually show one such sentence.

But then, anyone who claims "Critical Theory attempts at approaching history, where the goal is from the start to try to claim that western culture was evil" and all that other crap is probably not going to change their mind. If you had read any historical CT in good faith, you'd blush at all the nonsense you wrote.

I don't want to see a continued veering off-topic on this thread. And given that I think it's likely you're here to troll, and may well just be another sockpuppet of a recently banned user, I'm going to directly issue you a WARNING not to post off-topic on this thread again.  "Off topic" on this thread is ANYTHING that does not specifically deal with the Woke Companies List, as this thread is special and treated more strictly than others.

I've studied every aspect of critical theory. It's fundamentally written in BAD faith, and has no basis in actual academic methods, it's all just feelings-based speculation and outright lies.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 01:11:26 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 25, 2022, 08:45:35 PM
If you don't see the difference between saying "I'm not going to buy this book, and I would suggest you think about not buying it either" and "I don't like this person so I'm going to stop YOU from being able to buy his book, whether you like it or not!" then you have failed at understanding the most basic principles of western civilization, and you are a fascist.

You're also a hypocrite, knowing full well that you are taking advantage of our principles to speak freely on this site, whereas if we were on a site that follows your rules we would be banned. And yet you want to suggest that our position is the evil one.

Answering this for the benefit of other readers, since again I don't think you're willing to actually examine your beliefs in good faith.
Most people who dislike a certain product on the left simply say "I'm not going to buy this book, and I would suggest you think about not buying it either".
And if a boycott actually gets a dev to go bankrupt, it's also likely other people will have a hard time getting the dev's product. De-platforming and boycotting just aren't that different in their effect, even if you try to say they have different mindsets.

I don't think your position is "evil", just that it's wrong; created by a series of misconceptions, willful ignorance (which you perfectly demonstrated with your little rant about the left) and copious amounts of hidden fear. I don't judge anyone from things that are not actions.
I'm not a hypocrite by asking you to live up to your standards, I'm just weaponizing your compass. The idea that free speech is important, btw, is also one I subscribe to. And in other fora there are many discussions about historical accuracy, political themes vs propaganda etc. They just do that in a more mature way.

Just to give people an example of misinformation:
- "the goal [of Critical Theory applied to history] is from the start to try to claim that western culture was evil": false. Critical theory does not talk about morals, it attempts to delineate power structures. It can also be used to deconstruct things other cultures did, like the Manchurian domination of Han Chinese people.
- "they never care about any of the atrocities of any other culture" this is because you focus on CT in the west, where... western culture is the dominant one.
- "nor do they seem to demand that any other culture be multicultural or else it is evil" Of course, since its goal is not to call people evil. However, the people who attack social power structures in the west tend to oppose them in other countries too (for example, people who are opposed to Asian people's discrimination in the US also tend to oppose racism against foreigners in Japan).
- "they try to claim that somehow culture and race are tied together" Because they are commonly associated in popular thought. It has nothing to do with biology.
- "try to claim that people of a given ethnic group have no claim at a "genuine culture" because there "were always people of color" in that society" In 3 years of hanging out in leftist spaces I've never heard that argument ONCE. What I HAVE heard is that white people in Ireland, France, Italy, Russia, Serbia as well as French immigrants to the US, white Americans of Irish and Italian descent all have pretty different cultural backgrounds, so the attempt by some far right groups to talk about "white culture" (or, when they're smarter, "western civilization", which means nothing and everything because it's so nebulous) is based on misrepresenting history.
So, if anything, it's right wing activist that I've seen lying/cherrypicking about history more often than not.
- "They find the weirdest cases and the rarest exceptions, which they then try to twist into claiming was the medieval norm" Again, wild unsubstantiated claim.
- "what you didn't have was a blended globalist progressive society in the style of 2022 leftism. Which is what they always want to turn settings into, to suggest the end of history, year zero, etc." same as above. Also, to hear someone who (I presume) thinks Capitalism is the best system we have talk about "the end of history" as if it was a left wing concept is hilarious.

Amazing. Every single statement you made here is a lie. And this is an example of an off topic post. I'm going to go ahead  now and tell you NOT to post in this thread thread again. You had every right to question entries of the list, but you immediately chose to jump at trying to derail this thread with your agenda, which is likely your entire purpose for being on this site.  It's also super likely you're a sockpuppet of a banned poster.  So DO NOT POST ON THIS THREAD again. If you do, you will be banned.

Quote from: IAmBecomeTheQueen on November 26, 2022, 03:00:08 PM

Quote from: Abbo1993 on November 26, 2022, 01:53:21 PM
I'm not American and I really don't want to get into this weird "culture war" you guys have going on, I'm neither a sociologist nor a philosopher so most of your musings fall flat to me, what I feel should be pointed out in the current Anglo rpg community is that there is this incredibly stupid tendency to demonize anyone who doesn't comform to the norm and dares to say something different, even if what they say amounts to "I don't care about politics, I'm only here to sling dices and loot dungeons", this site has a lot of weird stuff going on but one thing should be said, nobody will ban you for expressing your opinion, something that other sites like rpgnet do repeatedly and with extreme prejudice.

Funny that, I'm not American either. I just follow American news for the fun of it. I agree that there's a tendency to polarization, but I'd argue it has not much to do with the anglo community. It's simply the tendency of the internet and general western politics right now to polarize. Countries that don't speak primarily English, Arabic or Chinese have much smaller internet communities, so people often know each other and the reduced anonimity makes people more cautious with their words.

I find that on reddit, for example, mods on /rpg and /osr allow quite the varied and spirited discussion. They simply don't allow bigotry. If you allow that, minorities are naturally going to stay away from your space, so protecting the free speech of bigots means letting that of oppressed people die off.
I recommend this insightful video.

OK, that's enough of you, troll. Posting to that ridiculous John Potato propaganda video makes it very clear you're here to attack me and the site. I no longer have the patience to give the benefit of the doubt. From now on, a leftist comes on to this thread writing in a certain style, and I will just make the assumption they're one of the formerly-banned stalkers and take them.

Abbo, Thorn, Rhymer, S'mon, Jaseoffire, Meganova Stella, Ratman, Cathode Ray, and there may be others I missed: this is a WARNING. Post off-topic on this thread again, EVEN TO "REPLY" TO A TROLL'S ARGUMENT TRYING TO DERAIL THE THREAD with anything other than "this is off topic", and you may be banned.

Quote from: jaseoffire on November 27, 2022, 01:33:03 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 27, 2022, 11:49:03 AM

Quote from: jaseoffire on November 27, 2022, 12:28:59 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 26, 2022, 11:21:15 PM
IAmBecomeTheQueen,

First, if you want to discuss your leftist delusions, Pundit has a forum dedicated to such discussions.  Start a thread there and I'm sure folks will be happy to demolish you.  But stop crapping up this thread with posts that don't directly address the topic (CRT, letc.) because Pundit has been very clear about the consequences.

Secondly, this list isn't for you.  You are not the target demographic for it.  So don't waste your time writing long criticisms of it, because your opinions on it don't matter.  It's not for you.  Just accept that we don't care what you think about it.  It serves a purpose for us, so your complaints are irrelevant.

Now, you see, that's the type of exclusionary language that is generally frowned upon. Also, I don't think IAmBecomeTheQueen has really gone too off topic, though I suppose the freedom of speech conversation should probably find a new home. I'm not sure about the historical conversation as Ocule does challenge a branch of historical analysis in the list directly, even going as far as to have it as a reason for making a company red. This in turn, opens the rabbit hole of discussing that angle to discuss the company's placement. Like it or not, anyone may find value in the list, and I should hope that we strive for some sort of consistency that makes sense to more than just us. I guess that will be up to pundit to make that call as to how off the rails we've gotten.

False.  That kind of "exclusionary" language is used all of the time by the left.  They tell me what topics I am allowed to have an opinion on because of my race, my sex, and my political beliefs all of the time.  They delineate spaces I'm not allowed to enter, movies I'm not allowed to see on opening weekend, people I'm not allowed to talk to or about, and games I'm not allowed to play in the "wrong" way.  The very people this list identifies are the greatest practitioners of exclusion in society today.  They invented "cancel culture"!

So, I don't know who you are asserting "frowns upon" exclusionary language, but it's not the people on the list, or even IAmBecomeTheQueen, as his posts directly support censorship of certain ideas ("bigotry").  So, no one in this conversation is against exclusion.  It's simply a matter of "who" and "why".  This list chooses "who" based on whether or not the company can keep its politics out of its products.  The "why" is because we want games to be games, not propaganda or political screeds.  This is unacceptable to the folks on that list.  They don't see fun or entertainment as the primary purpose of their games.  No problem, I just need to know whose game isn't for me.

So go concern troll (or sock puppet) elsewhere.  Because the real problem in gaming right now is that we weren't exclusionary enough.  We welcomed everyone, including people who had no interest in our gaming, and just saw our hobby as a means to a political end.  And they should have been excluded a long time ago!

Hmm. Concern troll. That's a new one. Look, I get it. In many ways I agree with you. We've allowed very toxic elements into our community. The issue wasn't their inclusion, though. It was, at some point, their ascent to power. It's one thing to listen to the input of someone else, and it's a whole other matter to allow them to dictate policy. This is, alas, what happened to Wizards. Regardless, as I and another poster pointed out, we can't allow ourselves on either side to fall into an echo chamber. In the end, this is a public guide, and anyone can consume it. This is a public discussion, and anyone can comment on it. For all of our sakes, this is good.

No.  This list is not an open forum.  It does not benefit from bad faith commentary at cross purposes to it (something I'm not convinced that you aren't).  It is not an "echo chamber " when every other media out there expresses a contrary view.  We don't need "equal time" here; we ARE equal time.  This list doesn't need so-called criticism from those who have no desire to improve it, just tear it down.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 27, 2022, 02:15:57 PM
Abbo, Thorn, Rhymer, S'mon, Jaseoffire, Meganova Stella, Ratman, Cathode Ray, and there may be others I missed: this is a WARNING. Post off-topic on this thread again, EVEN TO "REPLY" TO A TROLL'S ARGUMENT TRYING TO DERAIL THE THREAD with anything other than "this is off topic", and you may be banned.

I think you are being a bit harsh with these bans. It's easy to get derailed off-topic in these kinds of discussions. Maybe just ban them from this thread? Or give them a one-month timeout? I mean, it's your website, so you can do whatever you want, but I think it's a bit too much.

Quote from: Hopladamus on November 29, 2022, 06:55:29 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 27, 2022, 02:15:57 PM
Abbo, Thorn, Rhymer, S'mon, Jaseoffire, Meganova Stella, Ratman, Cathode Ray, and there may be others I missed: this is a WARNING. Post off-topic on this thread again, EVEN TO "REPLY" TO A TROLL'S ARGUMENT TRYING TO DERAIL THE THREAD with anything other than "this is off topic", and you may be banned.

I think you are being a bit harsh with these bans. It's easy to get derailed off-topic in these kinds of discussions. Maybe just ban them from this thread? Or give them a one-month timeout? I mean, it's your website, so you can do whatever you want, but I think it's a bit too much.

This thread is huge enough as it is without spergs going off tangent and topic to whatever nonsense they feel like spewing out of their mouth to prove their point. The harder you crack down on The Stupid the less likely people will come and start chasing Squirrel's thrown out by Trolls.

Back on topic: HeroMaps are good people. I spoke with them and they are friendly, helpful, and kind sorts (welcoming a new one to their family) and want to make good maps that people enjoy.  I honestly believe they were swept up in the BLM-nonsense like others were.  Plus i think they are Australian?

Art of the Genre: Solid Green. The work they do with their old school Orange spine edition books, straight up Conanesque Vallejo covers and all around solid group with amazing products should go on the Green list.  Their KS' are the antithesis of woke and great Old School classics.